View Poll Results: How do you feel about the idea of NPC Party Members in WoW?

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  • Love It!

    37 17.45%
  • Ok with it but only if it makes sense or is done right

    52 24.53%
  • Don't care either way

    18 8.49%
  • Not really feeling it, doesn't make much sense to me

    47 22.17%
  • Hate it!

    58 27.36%
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  1. #61
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arr0gance View Post
    Sorry, call it a fallacy if you'd like but I firmly believe this would begin a very slippery slope. It's a box you can't close once it's opened. I'd prefer if WoW's devs simply steered clear of AI-assisted dungeoning.
    There's not much slope to it really. Either NPC's are available for certain content or they aren't. The boundaries of what an AI can do is likely to limit where they can be deployed and for all the abuse the devs take, they still firmly believe that being social in an MMO is important. So if they decide to do this, they will want to limit it to the audience that generally isn't running Mythic or raids. It's telling how much stuff they don't allow queueing for. Again, I doubt if it would matter that much in the end. Most of the people who would utilize this as a regular thing are likely not making themselves available for pickup groups anyway. The queued groups for dungeons and LFR aren't social by any definition and that's because people don't want to be social in that content. They either want to get through it as quickly as possible or some folks just have nothing to say. You typically only get into problems with a group (if you can play competently at all) by running your mouth during an instance.

    The other point to make about it which is hardly arguable: Opening lower-level content for dungeons and other content like islands for players who would rather not engage with the 'community' would be good for business. MMO's are no longer working very well on forcing players to behave in some way. They work better and players might stay around a bit longer when they have options. Social behavior in an MMO is by now a default option in any case.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2021-04-25 at 10:11 AM.
    “We live in a moment where everything immediately seems to default to outrage. There’s a kind of M.O. of either it’s exactly how I see it, or you’re my enemy.”

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Aurabolt View Post
    I kinda feel like it will be happening at some point in the future. How it could look is a whole other topic though I have my ideas I won't get into detail on here.

    I can already measure a pretty good guess the overwhelming majority of folks here are disgusted by the idea but I do believe it is both inevitable and to a greater degree necessary to meet varying play styles and preferences.

    ...Plus, the MMO bubble popped a long time ago. The genre's not as popular as it was in the past plus other factors. This is why I feel NPC party members is inevitable. Time will tell though.
    Why do you think so?

  3. #63
    Epic! Uoyredrum's Avatar
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    I'd be ok with it but only as long as they're the clearly inferior option and useless in high end content. But I think the idea itself is fine for questing, normal dungeons, etc. Guild Wars had that feature and it was fine.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    If your point was just that gamers not actively engaging in-game is not the same as them being anti-social as they typically engage with people on other mediums (i.e.: discord or other voip/chatt apps), that's fair enough. Given the context it read to me as a justification for NPC party members because the social context has shifted, but if that's not the case that's my bad.
    That was my point.
    On the topic of justification - I don't think it would work and it would require constant tuning/retuning due to class/dungeon changes so I would rather have devs designing more boss encounters than working on these type of AI or actually redesign Tanking/Healing where it's actually fun for people to play it.

  5. #65
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    Hardly. It takes actual effort to implement something like that, so I wouldn't bet on it anytime soon.
    Quote Originally Posted by StationaryHawk View Post
    We've already seen something similar in Island Expeditions, a game mode that was barely relevant even in the expansion that featured it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    Having NPCs bum-rush you, jumping around and running away is completely different from having them actually do tactics in dungeons. Especially with the overlapping RNG-fiesta style of gameplay WoW has.
    All of these address interesting points. I am sure Blizzard could program NPCs to flawlessly execute a mythic raid or 5 man at any key...or let them be too stupid to even complete a LFR.

    So how do you tune this? NPCs scaling to the level of your own performance? So if today you claim you failed that +5 key because everyone else was an idiot, if in the future you fail a +2 key with 4 NPCs...turns out you were the problem?

  6. #66
    Sure. Convert LFR to AI-assisted hand-holding mode if you like. Make it give gear 50 ilvl below the current Normal raid level and associate a "behind the curve" achieve with it so that people who play the game like it's a storybook can see it all, who cares. Eliminate normal and heroic 5-mans, replace them with AI hand-holding difficulty, leave M0 as "hard" as it is now and then make M+ the difficulty slider.

    I couldn't care less what obsessively solo "casual players who play 40 hours a week but don't want to actually put any effort in or learn how to be better at the game do. Make the group content in the game difficult and engaging and design it around people who are in groups and on comms with each other. WoW's PvE endgame is unique and it's being degraded by Blizzard's attempts to coddle people who don't want to actually improve at the game.

    World of Warcraft is really fucking fun if you play it with your friends and you're all committed to actually doing well whether in M+ or raids, but Blizzard keep putting in shitty treadmills like Anima and renown and artifact power and order hall missions to keep "casuals" happy which means 75% of the time you spend logged in is doing chores that aren't any faster or more engaging with your friends so why even bother playing?

  7. #67
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    Having NPCs bum-rush you, jumping around and running away is completely different from having them actually do tactics in dungeons. Especially with the overlapping RNG-fiesta style of gameplay WoW has.
    If Blizzard can script a boss they can script an NPC that will respond appropriately. We're not talking about mythic or raids in any case. It seems perfectly likely to me that they can script NPC's for normal/heroic dungeons (although I would only have them for normal).
    “We live in a moment where everything immediately seems to default to outrage. There’s a kind of M.O. of either it’s exactly how I see it, or you’re my enemy.”

  8. #68
    The Lightbringer Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    The only thing that resembles "mmo" in wow atm is that players are obliged to tolerate each other for some content praying that said interaction won't lead to fails. We are far far away from what mmo used to stand for so its better to just let everyone go their merry way and not force them to interact with strangers.

    People should really play some actual mmo games and see how real player communities interact to support and help each other instead of making other players life as miserable as possible.

    Ye, no. Douchebags and helpful people are in every on-line game, and WoW is no exception. I see multiple times a day new players asking for advice in Newcomer chat and receiving it, or people in party asking for a boss tactics and also receiving it. Not to mention my own guild that is highly supportive about things in and outside of WoW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    Im 100% in favor of more single player content in wow or at least progress independent content so that other people's fails don't reflect on individual progress
    Oh, and because your own fails never hindered your group in any way?
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2021-04-25 at 10:57 AM.
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  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by arr0gance View Post
    God forbid somebody in the group says "hi" to one another in a dungeon. This seems like the end conclusion to the cynical anti-social nature of modern gamers.

    what the heck?this is completly besides the point,no1 is saying to not be social or nice in groups,but the point of finding groups to do content,is and has always been the completion of that content/task/etc,its not for you to have some form of mirc chat room lol,you have guilds or specific comunities to do that,are you telling me that the reason you que for normal or hc dungeons is to catfish random people and say ''HI'' to them?cmon

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    If Blizzard can script a boss they can script an NPC that will respond appropriately. We're not talking about mythic or raids in any case. It seems perfectly likely to me that they can script NPC's for normal/heroic dungeons (although I would only have them for normal).
    very true,have people forgoten proving grounds?those were extremly well done for the time,and the island expedition AI was pretty decent,those bots could handle normal and hc no problem,they can be programed to avoid mecanics very easily,in fact they can 100% be programed to handle it better than players can,because the ai can directly comunicate wwith the server and better anticipate stuff if they want them to be THAT good,i mean look at chess bots

  10. #70
    Elemental Lord callipygoustp's Avatar
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    Reading mmo-c, often I feel like I am in a minority of people that regularly plays with friends. WTF

  11. #71
    I mean the topic and the questionnaire are different things
    I personally dont like it.

    However, i think it is gonna be an Inevitability because of the shrinking size of this game from xpac to xpac and people that are mostly sticking with seem to be permanently online with no social skills who cant even communicate online
    Quote Originally Posted by callipygoustp View Post
    Reading mmo-c, often I feel like I am in a minority of people that regularly plays with friends. WTF
    See above its an audience cultivation issue

  12. #72
    If this happens, especially if I can add 4 other alts from my own account, meaning let this AI system control my own alts as opposed to giving me the same NPC’s all the time, I think this feature alone will ensure WoW remains the champion in the mmorpg genre.

    Thinking of it the same way I would be leveling up multiple weapons in New World at the same time where, Essentially I’m leveling multiple classes at the same time on a single toon, but since architecturally this is not possible with WoW, the closest would be 5 toons at a time out of your 50 alts. This way you can alternate between toons and massively enjoy the different play styles even though you’re grinding the same boring content.

    Then maybe I can main something in classic/tbc/wotlk...etc with a guild while still enjoying retail with this system and avoiding all the toxicity from the salty addicts grinding normal/hc in retail.

  13. #73
    FFXIV and wow are too different to compare how dungeons work.
    In FFXIV dungeons are linear there is not so many ways you can plan your route only how many fights between bosses you want.

    Wow has as many ways to do the dungeon as there is tanks.

    Only place where FFXIV style solo dungeon would work is normal dungeons and you would have to reduce the loot to one normal ilvl item and no gold.

    The FFXIV npc system is for those who want to see the dungeon and all the cutscenes in it with out being rushed by the EX trial tank/healer who just wants to get their daily runs done.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    Getting more people into these roles will simply not happen, since it's mostly a certain type of people that wants to play these roles to begin with - especially with the responsibility baggage that comes with it in multiplayer games.
    They'd attract a lot more players to the role with two* simples changes:

    1) Don't make every M+ affix a tank or healer affix. Doubling down on that, don't make every affix "oh shit, here comes more damage" or "oh shit, here comes less healing".

    2) Don't make 80% of the tank and healer specs in the game liquid shit to play in keys/don't make one perform insanely better than the others to the point of the rest being a detriment to their group.

    Edit:

    3) Get rid of fucking prideful. It is easily the dumbest shtick they've ever added in M+'s lifespan. In a pug, messing up one pull, wasting one prideful, or even going a route that isn't the peepopogger dratnos special v2.7 mk2 3000 raiderio path is extremely likely to end with the group disbanding. And that is completely dependent on the tank and their ability to memorize the route or download MDT and use it like it's scripture.
    Last edited by stross01; 2021-04-25 at 11:50 AM.

  15. #75
    The Lightbringer Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stross01 View Post
    They'd attract a lot more players to the role with two* simples changes:

    1) Don't make every M+ affix a tank or healer affix. Doubling down on that, don't make every affix "oh shit, here comes more damage" or "oh shit, here comes less healing".

    2) Don't make 80% of the tank and healer specs in the game liquid shit to play in keys/don't make one perform insanely better than the others to the point of the rest being a detriment to their group.

    Edit:

    3) Get rid of fucking prideful. It is easily the dumbest shtick they've ever added in M+'s lifespan. In a pug, messing up one pull, wasting one prideful, or even going a route that isn't the peepopogger dratnos special v2.7 mk2 3000 raiderio path is extremely likely to end with the group disbanding. And that is completely dependent on the tank and their ability to memorize the route or download MDT and use it like it's scripture.
    1. They are not "only tank or healer" affixes. Everybody can and should move away from Volcanic/Storming, avoid avoidable damage to get less Grevious stacks and use personal healing to drop them, DPS mobs evenly for Bolstering or single target prio for Inspired/Explosive. Hardly only healer/tank job. Even Necrotic can be made so much easier if entire team slows/stuns the mobs.

    2. 80% specs are shit in M+? Hope you don't get your info from MDI only. I have seen every spec in game timing 15+, aside from Survival maybe.

    3. Prideful is a seasonal affix, it goes away in 9.1. And Dungeon Tools with strict routes have been a thing since BfA. Reaping and Awakened were strongly about dungeon %.
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2021-04-25 at 12:18 PM.
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  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Aurabolt View Post
    I kinda feel like it will be happening at some point in the future. How it could look is a whole other topic though I have my ideas I won't get into detail on here.

    I can already measure a pretty good guess the overwhelming majority of folks here are disgusted by the idea but I do believe it is both inevitable and to a greater degree necessary to meet varying play styles and preferences.

    ...Plus, the MMO bubble popped a long time ago. The genre's not as popular as it was in the past plus other factors. This is why I feel NPC party members is inevitable. Time will tell though.
    It could happen, especially for lower end dungeons and levelling. It'd ensure that everything remains playable regardless of what other players think and do.
    It would also put less pressure on people to play in any particular way, while simultanously providing them the opportunity to familiarise with content away from prying eyes.

    Honestly the more i think about it, the more i like it, though it would have to be done right of course.
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  17. #77
    Sure, why not? It's not like WoW has ever really paid any respects to the genre itself. It is its own thing.

    Roguelike stuff this time, who knows what's next?

  18. #78
    The Lightbringer Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurabolt View Post
    I kinda feel like it will be happening at some point in the future. How it could look is a whole other topic though I have my ideas I won't get into detail on here.

    I can already measure a pretty good guess the overwhelming majority of folks here are disgusted by the idea but I do believe it is both inevitable and to a greater degree necessary to meet varying play styles and preferences.

    ...Plus, the MMO bubble popped a long time ago. The genre's not as popular as it was in the past plus other factors. This is why I feel NPC party members is inevitable. Time will tell though.
    Problem is, this will never gonna work in any medium-high lvl of content, and will create lot's of frustration in lower lvl. Basically just put some bodies in your Hc dungeon run so you don't have to wait ages. But then again, who cares about Hc dungeons?
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2021-04-25 at 12:26 PM.
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  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Aurabolt View Post
    I kinda feel like it will be happening at some point in the future. How it could look is a whole other topic though I have my ideas I won't get into detail on here.

    I can already measure a pretty good guess the overwhelming majority of folks here are disgusted by the idea but I do believe it is both inevitable and to a greater degree necessary to meet varying play styles and preferences.

    ...Plus, the MMO bubble popped a long time ago. The genre's not as popular as it was in the past plus other factors. This is why I feel NPC party members is inevitable. Time will tell though.
    I really like this idea. It could provide a solo challenge mode for raids and dungeons. You could also make the NPCs famous WOW heroes. You could collect your heroes by doing things/ achieves in the world. There can even be rare ones (Arthas Pre lich king) that are harder to find/ collect. You have to assemble your team and decided on your comp (how many ranged, how many heals)? Your team members can even hang out in your garrison when you are not raiding. Maybe there can even be "looks" for your team (Outlaw look- team is dressed as pirates).

    It would also be fun! Imagine a raid team with your character as the raid lead- Arthas as one of the tanks, anduin as a healer, Tyrande (night warrior) as melee, Vanessa Van Cleef as your rogue, Khadgar as your mage, You get the idea.

    How would the raid work? It would be easy- the player has to do his job. Think about it- each encounter has a set amount of "jobs" a player has to do. Stand in this, don't stand in that, run the mark to wall, do at least 4k dps, don't die. If the player is able to complete his jobs- you down the encounter (it is assumed the npcs will do their jobs but it doesn't have to be that way). If there is a special mechanic (like seeds or something) the player has to be the one that handles it (unless they are the tank).

    Think of all the fun and experimentation this would open up for the game. It wouldn't interfere with raids and dungeons as they are now since it is a different mode completely. Maybe this could even be expanded to allow three friends to still be able to raid together if they can't find a pug. It was also open up something else to do- collect NPCs for your garrison/ team.

    The OP is right about mmos in general. The glory days of grouping are over. When mmo's first came out- everyone was excited to group. It was new and exciting. That was 15+ yrs ago. It is fair to say the luster has worn off. Most people do not like LFG today, they like CO-OP (quickly formed, easy. flexible grouping)

  20. #80
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    The idea I'm not 100% keen on but I would support a bodyguard system. One NPC to be hired pr. player to fulfill a task that said player needs, be it tank, heal or DPS but a whole group, is not what I'd like to see. I do not see it as necessary either.

    Maybe the most necessary would be to expand the LGF dungeon brackets.
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