View Poll Results: Who would win in a battle between Aegwynn (as Guardian) and Queen Azshara?

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  • Aegwynn (as Guardian of Tisifal)

    98 67.59%
  • Queen Azshara

    35 24.14%
  • Other / Not sure / It's complicated

    12 8.28%
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  1. #41
    Brewmaster Whitedragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    Without the well, Azshara is probably on par with today's powerful mages. However, her mis/overuse of the well itself would have been a handicap after losing it much less there's no indication she got anything other than the ability to survive the sea after that.

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    How has she gotten stronger? She lost the main thing that made her reputable. She was extremely strong as just a normal golden eyed night elf mage, but without the well she's just a pretty good mage. Jaina with the imbued staff could mop the floor with her.
    So much this, everyone always gushes over Azshara like she is some god, but she quite literally planted herself (And her empire) on the strongest font of magical power the world had ever seen and horded the magic for her self (and her collection of sycophants), once she lost it she couldn't even hold a shield up around a small portion of her city for more then a few seconds...

    As for N'Zoth and his power up, do people really think he gave her more power then the well? At that point She wasn't even his best plan... he dropped most of his forces with Deathwings arrival (Her people are even used as an auxiliary force for him), No way is she given any more power then she needs to do her job...

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Varitok View Post


    Might I remind people what the power of mages funneling their magic into one person looks like? These are just random mages during the Troll Wars. Aegwynn was gifted immense power by some of the most powerful mages on Azeroth.


    Azshara was only a puppet of Sargeras who he kept only as powerful as he allowed her to be. I think people tend to use old lore to often instead of Chronicles which, regardless what you think, is defacto canon lore now and in it, she's not nearly as powerful as you think.

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    Jaina is the probably most powerful mage on Azeroth right now, funny enough. She has her own power ontop of absorbing Lei Shen's (Which includes Lei Shen himself and the partial power of a Titan Keeper). Jaina's power creep has gone unnoticed.
    Lol, great argument. This art shows the troll war, during which 100 human magicians joined forces, and even so it was a long and difficult ritual and they were very close. Azgara destroyed the Pillar of Creation being thousands of kilometers away and for her it was not at all difficult.

    Jaina herself admitted that Azgara is the strongest mage and she could not destroy Azshara's spell without the help of Thalyssra and Azshara's own weapon.

    Very bad, dude, very bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uoyredrum View Post
    Aegwynn and it's really not even close.

    Aegwynn > Avatar of Sargeras > Archimonde > Azshara

    The same heroes that defeated a weakened fallen avatar also defeated azshara when they were much weaker. Well, assuming that the combined power of the artifact weapons > the heart of azeroth at the time azshara was defeated, which is probably true by feats alone. The scepter of sargeras itself is probably comparable to or stronger than the HoA.

    So yeah, it's a stomp in Aegwynn's favor even if we're talking Queen Azshara at her peak.
    I don't understand why people overestimate artifacts so massively, but that's not the point. Even with HoA, the heroes needed the help of Jaina, Lor'themar, and Thalyssra. It was also mentioned that Magni gave the Heart of Azeroth to SEVERAL select heroes, not just one.

  3. #43
    they made azshara weak AF during bfa... which is a shame and kind of an insult to what she was supposed to be As a major wow character of ancient lore...

    kind of upsetting... i was hoping to fear azshara as almost needing a whole expansion based on finally encountering her. Instead she was done away with .. through 1 patch and raid tier.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Whitedragon View Post
    So much this, everyone always gushes over Azshara like she is some god, but she quite literally planted herself (And her empire) on the strongest font of magical power the world had ever seen and horded the magic for her self (and her collection of sycophants), once she lost it she couldn't even hold a shield up around a small portion of her city for more then a few seconds...

    As for N'Zoth and his power up, do people really think he gave her more power then the well? At that point She wasn't even his best plan... he dropped most of his forces with Deathwings arrival (Her people are even used as an auxiliary force for him), No way is she given any more power then she needs to do her job...
    The bargain shown in the video seemed to only be naga transformation anyway in order to survive the depths.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuraijake View Post
    they made azshara weak AF during bfa... which is a shame and kind of an insult to what she was supposed to be As a major wow character of ancient lore...

    kind of upsetting... i was hoping to fear azshara as almost needing a whole expansion based on finally encountering her. Instead she was done away with .. through 1 patch and raid tier.
    And that's more than she deserved if you actually knew lore.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Varitok View Post


    Might I remind people what the power of mages funneling their magic into one person looks like? These are just random mages during the Troll Wars. Aegwynn was gifted immense power by some of the most powerful mages on Azeroth.


    Azshara was only a puppet of Sargeras who he kept only as powerful as he allowed her to be. I think people tend to use old lore to often instead of Chronicles which, regardless what you think, is defacto canon lore now and in it, she's not nearly as powerful as you think.

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    Jaina is the probably most powerful mage on Azeroth right now, funny enough. She has her own power ontop of absorbing Lei Shen's (Which includes Lei Shen himself and the partial power of a Titan Keeper). Jaina's power creep has gone unnoticed.
    You know, why can't they do that again? Like the high elves or the humans of Dalaran - they could have summoned another massive firestorm from the heavens to annihilate the Scourge, or other invaders during any of their previous wars. I'm sure, they are much more experienced and formidable today than the mages of several millennia ago.
    "Always you speak. Never do you listen! You ignore the lessons of Pandaria! You see, there is balance in all things. Wisdom etched in our very fur: Black and white. Darkness and light. When the last emperor hid our land from the rest of the world, he also preserved...our ancient enemy, the mantid. So it is with your Alliance and your Horde. They are not strong despite one another; they are strong BECAUSE of one another. You mistake your greatest strength for weakness. Do you see this?"

  6. #46
    the Well made mages of old... well mages xd

    without them, they were below average.

    Illidan couldn't even cast a simple spell without it and the only reason he did something was because Rhonin taught him /facepalm.

    Azshara didn't have that teaching so without the well, she lost 90% of her power.

    she had direct access to it and who knows what else she did during her reign which was few thousand years long.

    even if she got some amp from N'zoth, she was amped when she lost 90% of her power.

    at least, that's how it's supposed to be in Knaak's shitty trilogy.

    as for Aegwynn, it's irrelevant if Sargeras had a back up plan.

    iirc, the battle between Sargeras and Aegwynn was so powerful it kept the entire dragonflight and half powered Alexstrasza at bay.

    she also did well against Medivh (whom Deathwing was wary and scared off) who had some power of the Guardian and was backed up by Sargeras when she was just a normal sorceress so Aegwynn is also extremely experienced.

    Aegwynn is simply way more impressive.
    Last edited by DemonHunter18; 2021-04-27 at 04:12 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    They had no prior build-up and instead tried to leech off of already established things people are familiar with. The Scourge? Maldraxxus did that. The Lich King? The Jailer did that. Frostmourne? The Runecarver made that. Sargeras corruption by demons and everything resulting from that? Also the Jailer's plan.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    The bargain shown in the video seemed to only be naga transformation anyway in order to survive the depths.

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    And that's more than she deserved if you actually knew lore.
    nope i dont.. unsubbed.. oh well

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Varitok View Post
    Jaina is the probably most powerful mage on Azeroth right now, funny enough. She has her own power ontop of absorbing Lei Shen's (Which includes Lei Shen himself and the partial power of a Titan Keeper). Jaina's power creep has gone unnoticed.
    I don't think that's true anymore.

    the quest says Lei Shen got his power from his throne or whatnot and not from himself but we learned from Retchronicles that the power came from Lei Shen himself and not from the throne or item.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuraijake View Post
    nope i dont.. unsubbed.. oh well
    probably the smartest decision of your life.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    They had no prior build-up and instead tried to leech off of already established things people are familiar with. The Scourge? Maldraxxus did that. The Lich King? The Jailer did that. Frostmourne? The Runecarver made that. Sargeras corruption by demons and everything resulting from that? Also the Jailer's plan.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Samuraijake View Post
    they made azshara weak AF during bfa... which is a shame and kind of an insult to what she was supposed to be As a major wow character of ancient lore...

    kind of upsetting... i was hoping to fear azshara as almost needing a whole expansion based on finally encountering her. Instead she was done away with .. through 1 patch and raid tier.
    She wasn't weak at all. Lor'themar, Jaina, Thalyssra, the Champions (With one of them AKA you wielding the HoA canonically), and the Titan Prison pillars were required to stop her.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DemonHunter18 View Post
    the Well made mages of old... well mages xd

    without them, they were below average.

    Illidan couldn't even cast a simple spell without it and the only reason he did something was because Rhonin taught him /facepalm.

    Azshara didn't have that teaching so without the well, she lost 90% of her power.

    she had direct access to it and who knows what else she did during her reign which was few thousand years long.

    even if she got some amp from N'zoth, she was amped when she lost 90% of her power.

    at least, that's how it's supposed to be in Knaak's shitty trilogy.

    as for Aegwynn, it's irrelevant if Sargeras had a back up plan.

    iirc, the battle between Sargeras and Aegwynn was so powerful it kept the entire dragonflight and half powered Alexstrasza at bay.

    she also did well against Medivh (whom Deathwing was wary and scared off) who had some power of the Guardian and was backed up by Sargeras when she was just a normal sorceress so Aegwynn is also extremely experienced.

    Aegwynn is simply way more impressive.
    1. It's the AVATAR of Sargeras. And 2. I forget, is the Dragonflight thing in the Chronicle?

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    "whom Deathwing was wary and scared off"

    Yeah, but that Deathwing at the time got slapped by a pissed off Gron, and even got beat tf up by Khadgar during the Second War LMAOOOO

  10. #50
    Ik it was Avatar of Sargeras.

    I don't need to mention it every time.

    yeah, the dragonflight is in Retchronicles.

    Deathwing pre Cata was rated on the same level as other Aspects according to Knaak (or was it Golden) so he wasn't as amped as he was during Cataclysm but he was still an Aspect.

    besides, him being wary and scared of Medivh makes perfect sense.

    Knaak is below average when it comes to writing books lol.

    according to his perfect fanfiction:

    1. Aspects, when together, can beat Old Gods
    2. Old Gods would wreck Sargeras so bad he would beg for swift death (Metzen had to fix that while saying it was just hyperbole or something)
    3. Cenarius is as strong as Aspects (which I guess would be true if they didn't turn Demigods into a freaking joke).
    4. Alexstrasza is the most powerful entity on Azeroth

    etc

    books pre WoW are pretty much outdated.

    actually, all books are more or less invalid, especially the old ones that pre date even WC3.

    tbh, all lore is invalid (books or games) lol since writers are consistently shitting on it.
    Last edited by DemonHunter18; 2021-04-27 at 04:42 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    They had no prior build-up and instead tried to leech off of already established things people are familiar with. The Scourge? Maldraxxus did that. The Lich King? The Jailer did that. Frostmourne? The Runecarver made that. Sargeras corruption by demons and everything resulting from that? Also the Jailer's plan.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by DemonHunter18 View Post
    the Well made mages of old... well mages xd

    without them, they were below average.

    Illidan couldn't even cast a simple spell without it and the only reason he did something was because Rhonin taught him /facepalm.

    Azshara didn't have that teaching so without the well, she lost 90% of her power.

    she had direct access to it and who knows what else she did during her reign which was few thousand years long.

    even if she got some amp from N'zoth, she was amped when she lost 90% of her power.

    at least, that's how it's supposed to be in Knaak's shitty trilogy.

    as for Aegwynn, it's irrelevant if Sargeras had a back up plan.

    iirc, the battle between Sargeras and Aegwynn was so powerful it kept the entire dragonflight and half powered Alexstrasza at bay.

    she also did well against Medivh (whom Deathwing was wary and scared off) who had some power of the Guardian and was backed up by Sargeras when she was just a normal sorceress so Aegwynn is also extremely experienced.

    Aegwynn is simply way more impressive.
    Night Elf mages are simply not used to using magic without the Source, because without it they had to greatly limit themselves.

    Lol, Xavius ​​with the well could not do anything against Malfurion, and after being strengthened by Nzoth, he was able to easily defeat Ursoc. People do not understand how much power Nzoth actually gives.

    Alexstrasza (like all dragons) were not at half their strength, they had lost most of their strength. The Aspects lost so much strength that even FOURTHS could not defeat Deathwing, who did not even fight with them, but just played.

    Deathwing once said that Medivh is the only mortal with whom he would not want to fight, but this does not mean that he would not destroy him in a direct fight, it would just be much more difficult. Even so, Deathwing was always considered stronger than Medivh, because in the old lore Deathwing was named the second most powerful creature on Azeroth (the first was Alexstrasza at full capacity).

    Aegwynn barely defeated the Avatar of Sargeras in a long and difficult battle. Azshara made Mannoroth wet his pants without even lifting a finger. It’s not that the Avatar of Sargeras is stronger than Mannoroth, it’s how much effort Aegwynn spent and how little effort Azshara did, and she’s become much stronger since then.

  12. #52
    Pandaren Monk Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    Aegwynn barely defeated the Avatar of Sargeras in a long and difficult battle. Azshara made Mannoroth wet his pants without even lifting a finger. It’s not that the Avatar of Sargeras is stronger than Mannoroth, it’s how much effort Aegwynn spent and how little effort Azshara did, and she’s become much stronger since then.
    This doesn't support your argument. Mannoroth, frankly, is not that powerful in the grand scheme of things. He's about as strong as Cenarius, if not a little more given the original lore had Cenarius refusing to directly confront him. That Azshara spooked him is not that impressive, especially given she and the rest of the Highborne were at that time reliant on the Well of Eternity and were provided power by virtue of their mastery of that unique magic. Not to digress from the point, the fact of the matter is that what we've seen from Azshara has been kind of pathetic.
    What was her interaction in Warbringers? She was immediately defeated by some water and was quickly manipulated by N'zoth who simply placated her.
    What was her interaction in Rise of Azshara? She had no ability to affect the Alliance or Horde herself and required the use of a Titan artifact to part the seas.
    What was her interaction in the Eternal Palace? She tried to undermine N'zoth and was handily beaten by the Champions of Azeroth while (1) calling in reinforcements to support her and (2) used Titan machinery to attack them.
    Not only does she have no feats of note, her representation on Battle for Azeroth would be best described as successive failure. She's literally just a character that has tons of cheer leaders and hype women/men, but absolutely nothing substantive to show that she's actually impressive.

    To be quite blunt, this thread is a mismatch. It's comparing Aegwynn, a character with a set of respectable feats, against Azshara, a character whose only "feats" are hypotheticals provided in a book series that also stated that the Old Gods were stronger than Sargeras. That's not to say that Azshara cannot do anything in the future, but she simply has not done anything yet. I would also be wary of assuming she will do anything meaningful in the future given both Archimonde and Kil'jaeden, two obscenely powerful warlocks who have the magic required to destroy planets (such as Archimonde's ability to slam meteors into Draenor, or the magic shown in the Velen short story), were both unceremoniously fucked by Blizzard after the fact (i.e.: Kil'jaeden the Deceived tbh).
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    Night Elf mages are simply not used to using magic without the Source, because without it they had to greatly limit themselves.

    Lol, Xavius ​​with the well could not do anything against Malfurion, and after being strengthened by Nzoth, he was able to easily defeat Ursoc. People do not understand how much power Nzoth actually gives.

    Alexstrasza (like all dragons) were not at half their strength, they had lost most of their strength. The Aspects lost so much strength that even FOURTHS could not defeat Deathwing, who did not even fight with them, but just played.

    Deathwing once said that Medivh is the only mortal with whom he would not want to fight, but this does not mean that he would not destroy him in a direct fight, it would just be much more difficult. Even so, Deathwing was always considered stronger than Medivh, because in the old lore Deathwing was named the second most powerful creature on Azeroth (the first was Alexstrasza at full capacity).

    Aegwynn barely defeated the Avatar of Sargeras in a long and difficult battle. Azshara made Mannoroth wet his pants without even lifting a finger. It’s not that the Avatar of Sargeras is stronger than Mannoroth, it’s how much effort Aegwynn spent and how little effort Azshara did, and she’s become much stronger since then.
    Azshara had the well at the time still. Mannoroth was/is incompetent and couldn't tell the difference between actual power and borrowed power. Now if you're saying in this "fight" she has the well(although so would Aeggie) you might have a point. However, that was never stated in the premise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DemonHunter18 View Post
    I don't think that's true anymore.

    the quest says Lei Shen got his power from his throne or whatnot and not from himself but we learned from Retchronicles that the power came from Lei Shen himself and not from the throne or item.

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    probably the smartest decision of your life.
    If you read the quest you'd know it didn't matter where it was. She basically says absorb it there no matter what the source is and where it is.

    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Securing_A_Future

    Regardless of whether it was in the dais or him, it's in the staff now. She essentially "programmed" the staff to seek out the power. If not, it would have been like "hmmm nothing happened"

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    Quote Originally Posted by OwenBurton View Post
    You know, why can't they do that again? Like the high elves or the humans of Dalaran - they could have summoned another massive firestorm from the heavens to annihilate the Scourge, or other invaders during any of their previous wars. I'm sure, they are much more experienced and formidable today than the mages of several millennia ago.
    I think when Dalaran and Quelthelas took the hit in WC3 it really set mages back a bit.

  14. #54
    The Lightbringer Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Aegwynn was human

    We all know how it works
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    Azshara had the well at the time still. Mannoroth was/is incompetent and couldn't tell the difference between actual power and borrowed power. Now if you're saying in this "fight" she has the well(although so would Aeggie) you might have a point. However, that was never stated in the premise.

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    If you read the quest you'd know it didn't matter where it was. She basically says absorb it there no matter what the source is and where it is.

    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Securing_A_Future

    Regardless of whether it was in the dais or him, it's in the staff now. She essentially "programmed" the staff to seek out the power. If not, it would have been like "hmmm nothing happened"

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    I think when Dalaran and Quelthelas took the hit in WC3 it really set mages back a bit.
    What do you mean Mannoroth was incompetent? Illidan, a powerful mage in his own right, was afraid to use the teleporter near the Palace because Mannoroth could sense it and teleport Illidan to himself. It also does not matter at all whether this power was hers or borrowed. Also, if Azshara has the Well, it doesn't mean Aegwynn will have it. The Highborne were able to cut off the rest of the elves from the Well's power. And Azshara has grown much stronger since then.

    Then why didn't Dalaran and Quel'Thalas use spells like this in defense during the Scourge invasion?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    This doesn't support your argument. Mannoroth, frankly, is not that powerful in the grand scheme of things. He's about as strong as Cenarius, if not a little more given the original lore had Cenarius refusing to directly confront him. That Azshara spooked him is not that impressive, especially given she and the rest of the Highborne were at that time reliant on the Well of Eternity and were provided power by virtue of their mastery of that unique magic. Not to digress from the point, the fact of the matter is that what we've seen from Azshara has been kind of pathetic.
    What was her interaction in Warbringers? She was immediately defeated by some water and was quickly manipulated by N'zoth who simply placated her.
    What was her interaction in Rise of Azshara? She had no ability to affect the Alliance or Horde herself and required the use of a Titan artifact to part the seas.
    What was her interaction in the Eternal Palace? She tried to undermine N'zoth and was handily beaten by the Champions of Azeroth while (1) calling in reinforcements to support her and (2) used Titan machinery to attack them.
    Not only does she have no feats of note, her representation on Battle for Azeroth would be best described as successive failure. She's literally just a character that has tons of cheer leaders and hype women/men, but absolutely nothing substantive to show that she's actually impressive.

    To be quite blunt, this thread is a mismatch. It's comparing Aegwynn, a character with a set of respectable feats, against Azshara, a character whose only "feats" are hypotheticals provided in a book series that also stated that the Old Gods were stronger than Sargeras. That's not to say that Azshara cannot do anything in the future, but she simply has not done anything yet. I would also be wary of assuming she will do anything meaningful in the future given both Archimonde and Kil'jaeden, two obscenely powerful warlocks who have the magic required to destroy planets (such as Archimonde's ability to slam meteors into Draenor, or the magic shown in the Velen short story), were both unceremoniously fucked by Blizzard after the fact (i.e.: Kil'jaeden the Deceived tbh).
    Cenarius never refused to confront him directly, Mannoroth simply said that he rarely did it because he was too cunning. Mannoroth is also the third strongest demon in the Legion, which already puts him in a fairly high position. Oh, of course, scaring Archimonde's right hand just by looking at him is a shame. Once again, it’s not that she’s stronger, it’s HOW much stronger. Mannoroth realized that he had absolutely no chance against her.
    What does it mean immediately defeated by water? She had just lost the Well and could still contain the waves for a while. And as I said, she has become much stronger since then.
    Um, what? And Aegwynn needed the strength of the Council and Alunet to defeat the Avatar, how is that connected?
    She could literally kill any champion of Azeroth with one shot if he showed her an indecent gesture and during the battle she was more focused on freeing Nzoth through the Heart of Azeroth than on fighting the heroes and even so we needed the help of Jaina, Thalyssra (two powerful sorceresses) and Lor'themar. And Jaina (who actually communicated with Aegwynn and was literally a fan of her and knew by heart about all her achievements) called Azshara the most powerful mage of Azeroth.

    Respectable feats? Azshara made Mannoroth wet her pants and destroyed the Pillar of Creation thousands of kilometers away, Aegwynn defeated the Avatar of Sargeras and defeated Sargeras in Medivh's body when she had no Guardian powers, but had experience. I see equal feats here, I do not see Aegwynn's advantage and as I said Azshara has become much more experienced and powerful since then and Aegwynn has no experience of fighting the power of the Void, while Azshara probably knows more about arcane than Aegwynn. Lol, great argument. The books of Knaak are non-canon because in them the Old Gods are stronger than the Titans. At the same time, Blizzard themselves said that the Old Gods are stronger than the Titans. in 2009 Metzen said that the Titans could not defeat Nzoth, but in 2014 he said that Krasus was hyperbolic. The presence of retcons of any part does not make the entire plot of the book non-canon, otherwise Warcraft 3 is completely non-canon due to the Chronicles.

  16. #56
    Pandaren Monk Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    Cenarius never refused to confront him directly, Mannoroth simply said that he rarely did it because he was too cunning. Mannoroth is also the third strongest demon in the Legion, which already puts him in a fairly high position. Oh, of course, scaring Archimonde's right hand just by looking at him is a shame. Once again, it’s not that she’s stronger, it’s HOW much stronger. Mannoroth realized that he had absolutely no chance against her.
    What does it mean immediately defeated by water? She had just lost the Well and could still contain the waves for a while. And as I said, she has become much stronger since then.
    Um, what? And Aegwynn needed the strength of the Council and Alunet to defeat the Avatar, how is that connected?
    She could literally kill any champion of Azeroth with one shot if he showed her an indecent gesture and during the battle she was more focused on freeing Nzoth through the Heart of Azeroth than on fighting the heroes and even so we needed the help of Jaina, Thalyssra (two powerful sorceresses) and Lor'themar. And Jaina (who actually communicated with Aegwynn and was literally a fan of her and knew by heart about all her achievements) called Azshara the most powerful mage of Azeroth.

    Respectable feats? Azshara made Mannoroth wet her pants and destroyed the Pillar of Creation thousands of kilometers away, Aegwynn defeated the Avatar of Sargeras and defeated Sargeras in Medivh's body when she had no Guardian powers, but had experience. I see equal feats here, I do not see Aegwynn's advantage and as I said Azshara has become much more experienced and powerful since then and Aegwynn has no experience of fighting the power of the Void, while Azshara probably knows more about arcane than Aegwynn. Lol, great argument. The books of Knaak are non-canon because in them the Old Gods are stronger than the Titans. At the same time, Blizzard themselves said that the Old Gods are stronger than the Titans. in 2009 Metzen said that the Titans could not defeat Nzoth, but in 2014 he said that Krasus was hyperbolic. The presence of retcons of any part does not make the entire plot of the book non-canon, otherwise Warcraft 3 is completely non-canon due to the Chronicles.
    You've said quite a lot but with very little substance.
    Mannoroth being a high ranking member of the Legion is immaterial. The fact of the matter is that he is not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things. You're more-or-less saying "Well, I know he's only about as strong as Cenarius, and I know that he was repeatedly 1-shot by Grom, but he's still very strong trust me guys. I know a guy who can vouch. You wouldn't know the guy though, he goes to another school." His rank means nothing when we've seen him repeatedly fail at tasks that he should have been able to easily handle, and even his most powerful known match-up isn't that powerful either.

    Azshara held the waves for seconds before she broke. I'm sorry your version of immediate does not include encounters that last seconds. Regarding whether she has become more powerful, that also does not matter as her apparently undefeatably powerful representation in game is, again, pathetic. Your statement that she could kill the Champions of Azeroth is completely and utterly not supported by anything we saw. That is literally just speculation for the sake of trying to preserve some idea of power you feel Azshara should have, not that she does. If she was as powerful as you are trying to claim, she could have simply removed the Champions of Azeroth from the situation altogether, taken the Heart of Azeroth, and completed the ritual in peace. Instead she was annihilated by individuals who she and her forces in the encounter could not kill, even with the Titan machinery being leveraged and constantly being at risk of failure and in need of repair by the Champions of Azeroth she lost. Until she is developed more, this is a mismatch.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    You've said quite a lot but with very little substance.
    Mannoroth being a high ranking member of the Legion is immaterial. The fact of the matter is that he is not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things. You're more-or-less saying "Well, I know he's only about as strong as Cenarius, and I know that he was repeatedly 1-shot by Grom, but he's still very strong trust me guys. I know a guy who can vouch. You wouldn't know the guy though, he goes to another school." His rank means nothing when we've seen him repeatedly fail at tasks that he should have been able to easily handle, and even his most powerful known match-up isn't that powerful either.

    Azshara held the waves for seconds before she broke. I'm sorry your version of immediate does not include encounters that last seconds. Regarding whether she has become more powerful, that also does not matter as her apparently undefeatably powerful representation in game is, again, pathetic. Your statement that she could kill the Champions of Azeroth is completely and utterly not supported by anything we saw. That is literally just speculation for the sake of trying to preserve some idea of power you feel Azshara should have, not that she does. If she was as powerful as you are trying to claim, she could have simply removed the Champions of Azeroth from the situation altogether, taken the Heart of Azeroth, and completed the ritual in peace. Instead she was annihilated by individuals who she and her forces in the encounter could not kill, even with the Titan machinery being leveraged and constantly being at risk of failure and in need of repair by the Champions of Azeroth she lost. Until she is developed more, this is a mismatch.
    So, in short, should we consider Mannoroth weak because he didn't impress you personally?

    Azshara literally kills the player if he doesn't do what she says. Have you been in the raid? And I understand correctly that Archimonde and KilJaeden are also weaker than Aegwynn because they were defeated by the champions? I do not see any proof other than your subjective assessment.

  18. #58
    The Insane Arafal's Avatar
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    Aegwynn is a human.

    The answer is obvious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    Aegwynn was human

    We all know how it works

    God damn it, beat me to it.

    Trans Rights are Human Rights // Elune Says Queer Rights!

  19. #59
    Pandaren Monk Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    So, in short, should we consider Mannoroth weak because he didn't impress you personally?
    No, you're doing that thing where you disingenuously construct strawmen again. Mannoroth is weak because he is just objectively not that powerful. Mannoroth is roughly as strong as Cenarius and has been beaten multiple times by Grommash. There's just not much to say in his favor other than people blindly appealing to his rank. He can have whatever fancy rank he wants but if that is not made apparent in the lore then the title is worthless.

    Azshara literally kills the player if he doesn't do what she says. Have you been in the raid? And I understand correctly that Archimonde and KilJaeden are also weaker than Aegwynn because they were defeated by the champions? I do not see any proof other than your subjective assessment.
    Yes, I have been in the raid, but she was still easily decimated by the Champions of Azeroth. Appealing to a mechanic when we can see, pretty blatantly, that there are some hard limits on her power is silly. "She could have killed them at any time, trust me. She could have definitely killed them all. Don't worry that she was beaten easily, that's not relevant. She coulda done it. I swear. Trust me, please. Please believe me."

    Regarding Archi and KJ, you are once again doing that disingenuous thing you do where you construct strawmen and then act like a point was made. The point was not that Azshara was beaten by the Champions of Azeroth and Aegwynn wasn't. It was that you are asserting Azshara has some monumental, insurmountable level of power, could have easily defeated the Champions of Azeroth, when that simply was not the case. She fought the Champions of Azeroth with everything arrayed in her favor and handily lost. Doing this awkward "Well, she just wasn't trying" thing does not work.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  20. #60
    A lot of people hail Azshara as this amazingly powerful Wizard/Mage but at the end of the day she never really did anything that impressive in lore. Even the whole 'holding back the sea' stuff in Nazjatar is done using a Pillar of Creation.

    I don't know why she's so hyped. People are even saying she could take on Guardians of Tirisfal. Don't make me laugh. What feats does she have to put her on that level? Malfurion slugs it out with her all the time.

    Mannoroth is weak because he is just objectively not that powerful. Mannoroth is roughly as strong as Cenarius and has been beaten multiple times by Grommash. There's just not much to say in his favor other than people blindly appealing to his rank. He can have whatever fancy rank he wants but if that is not made apparent in the lore then the title is worthless.
    Mannoroth was the 4th boss of the Legion after Sargeras and Velen's boyband. That Grommash oneshots him twice isn't proof of Mannoroth's weakness, it's proof of just how crazy strong Grom was.

    He simply is the character you're told is crazy OP so that a hero can look badass as hell when they take him down. Sort of like the Avatar of Khaine or the Swarmlord from 40K.
    Last edited by starstationprofm; 2021-04-28 at 03:03 PM.

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