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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    Ner'Zhul, The Eredar, Lich King, Kel'Thuzad, The Old Gods, the Sha. WoW has literally had NUMEROUS Evil for Evils Sake characters.
    Ner'zhul? Really? The dude who did "evil shit" because spirits told them it was the only way to save his people, only to then find out he was being tricked and manipulated by Kil'jaeden.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    I'd call him about as interesting as Sargeras tbh.

    "BUT SARGERAS WAS INTIMIDATING" Except I felt more intimidated by Argus, since he had a hax that could end creation in a single spell lmaooo
    Well, Sargeras was better for me because you could read about him in the tomes and other clues in game since vanilla, he was the big bad dude and I feel that he was way better enemy "far far away" than when we actually saw him. Stories about Broxigar, Medivg, artefacts from Warcraft RTS games. Even if the end of him was not that good and they actually made him seem like a stupid giant because he was fooled by Dreadlords and sucked into a ghostbusters trap, while he was unknown dude who was always there - it felt "nice".
    Now we have Jailer, supposedly working against us since Titans corruption and so one but it just feels like very cheap "haha this was him all along" trick after pulling out some new character. It's DBZ levels of building

  3. #63
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xykotic View Post
    But, none of those are evil for evils sake...

    Did I miss some sarcasm or something?
    Kel'thuzad literally was just evil and willingly gave his life to become an all powerful Lich. The Sha are Evil incarnate, The Old Gods are Evil beings. The Lich King is bent on destroying the everyone. The Eredar willingly joined Sargeras then murdered their own kin then went on a rampage across the galaxy.

    How are these not evil for evils sake..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurkan View Post
    Ner'zhul? Really? The dude who did "evil shit" because spirits told them it was the only way to save his people, only to then find out he was being tricked and manipulated by Kil'jaeden.
    Who then tried to kill everyone on a planet. Just because someone has something bad happen in the past doesn't excuse doing evil shit purely because they are now evil.

    I hate to invoke Godwin's law, but Hitler was once Time Person of the year. Would you say he wasn't evil?

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    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    are you kidding lol?all of those guys have sme pretty good reasons and motivations on how they ended up where they did
    Having a "reason" to end up Evil, doesn't mean they aren't evil.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Well the Old Gods and the Sha probably qualify - the Old Gods were created solely to be planet cancer so that the Void Lords could get their foot in the door of the physical universe, which probably falls under the general heading of "evil's sake." When an Old God encounters a planet without a World-Soul it corrupts it regardless and without real purpose. Corruption is what they are.
    Definitely not Evil's sake. They're still forces of nature doing what they do as it's the will of the Void.

  5. #65
    Bloodsail Admiral Pheraz's Avatar
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    As blizzard got very trained in announcing lies, I wouldn't be surprised if the "this was the old design" is actually a lie too.
    If not... I don't know. I probably lost faith in them creating a proper villian. Mr. proper is definitely extremely unfrightening
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  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    Kel'thuzad literally was just evil and willingly gave his life to become an all powerful Lich. The Sha are Evil incarnate, The Old Gods are Evil beings. The Lich King is bent on destroying the everyone. The Eredar willingly joined Sargeras then murdered their own kin then went on a rampage across the galaxy.

    How are these not evil for evils sake..

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    Who then tried to kill everyone on a planet. Just because someone has something bad happen in the past doesn't excuse doing evil shit purely because they are now evil.

    I hate to invoke Godwin's law, but Hitler was once Time Person of the year. Would you say he wasn't evil?

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    Having a "reason" to end up Evil, doesn't mean they aren't evil.
    Sargeras was doing his own show of "order", which is evil to us. But it's what he thinks is just tampering with the nature law to set things right. The Eredar are evil, yes. The Sha and the Old Gods are flesh beings made from the Void Lords, and only serve to extend their will of spreading corruption and Shadow across all existence, which is just them doing their purpose, since the Light and other foes do the exact same fucking thing but in their own ways, and so forth.

    Arthas and Kel'Thuzad were evil, however. Arthas had his own reasons for doing shit, so did Ner'zhul (Which Arthas kinda expanded upon a bit, hence why he needed us), but Arthas overall was genuinely an evil dick. Same with Kel'thuzad. But Kel'thuzad's just the perfect goon. If he were in Mario. He'd be a BIG Goomba. A boss Goomba. A KING GOOMBA!

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    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    Well, Sargeras was better for me because you could read about him in the tomes and other clues in game since vanilla, he was the big bad dude and I feel that he was way better enemy "far far away" than when we actually saw him. Stories about Broxigar, Medivg, artefacts from Warcraft RTS games. Even if the end of him was not that good and they actually made him seem like a stupid giant because he was fooled by Dreadlords and sucked into a ghostbusters trap, while he was unknown dude who was always there - it felt "nice".
    Now we have Jailer, supposedly working against us since Titans corruption and so one but it just feels like very cheap "haha this was him all along" trick after pulling out some new character. It's DBZ levels of building
    That too. Sargeras' build up was imo far greater, but I don't think I saw him as extremely too intimidating in old lore, especially since the WoTA had him as "supposedly weaker than the Old Gods" by Krasus, tho he was some random lmao.

    "Even if the end of him was not that good and they actually made him seem like a stupid giant because he was fooled by Dreadlords and sucked into a ghostbusters trap,"

    Are you talking about the Old Lore or New Lore here? Cause the Dreadlords fucked with Sargeras in the old Tomes in Classic, and they fucked with him in the recent lore too. It's actually consistent, which is funny lmaooo

    Yea, the Jailer is kinda whack, ngl.

  7. #67
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    Definitely not Evil's sake. They're still forces of nature doing what they do as it's the will of the Void.
    The Will of the Void (Lords) in this case being the creation of a Dark Titan so that they can start making a ruckus in the physical universe - and that definitely falls under the aegis of "evil" in most senses. Just look at what the Old Gods do to a world absent a World-Soul, after all.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The Will of the Void (Lords) in this case being the creation of a Dark Titan so that they can start making a ruckus in the physical universe - and that definitely falls under the aegis of "evil" in most senses. Just look at what the Old Gods do to a world absent a World-Soul, after all.
    Yeah, but the Void's natural ideals is to see Infinite Possibilities and use them in order to claim Existence for themselves, and the Light exists to counteract that and do their own method of conquering Existence also.

    To us, it's Evil. To the Void, it's just their shit, they're doing whatever they want to do in order to see the Void's will done.

    Also, what's with this "Ordering of Light and Shadow" thing regarding Elune? I wonder...who are the First Ones? I think they came before Light and Shadow, but idk...

  9. #69
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    Also, what's with this "Ordering of Light and Shadow" thing regarding Elune? I wonder...who are the First Ones? I think they came before Light and Shadow, but idk...
    I don't think they came before them, but I do think they had a hand in separating them, and also ordering the other primal forces like Death, Disorder, Order, and Life. They created the metacosm we currently deal with, in other words.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    Yeah, but the Void's natural ideals is to see Infinite Possibilities and use them in order to claim Existence for themselves, and the Light exists to counteract that and do their own method of conquering Existence also.

    To us, it's Evil. To the Void, it's just their shit, they're doing whatever they want to do in order to see the Void's will done.

    Also, what's with this "Ordering of Light and Shadow" thing regarding Elune? I wonder...who are the First Ones? I think they came before Light and Shadow, but idk...
    I think Elune is one of the First Ones. In Legion we find out that Elune is the mother to the Naaru and in Chronicle we find out that the Naaru were created at the beginning of the Universe... so put two and two together.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I don't think they came before them, but I do think they had a hand in separating them, and also ordering the other primal forces like Death, Disorder, Order, and Life. They created the metacosm we currently deal with, in other words.
    I guess? But that would go against the ideas that they are essentially the clockmakers and the architects of the Cosmic framework, which Light and Shadow are apart of.

    And Light and Shadow being before them kinda goes against the idea that they are the FIRST ones. Meaning, they came First.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I don't think they came before them, but I do think they had a hand in separating them, and also ordering the other primal forces like Death, Disorder, Order, and Life. They created the metacosm we currently deal with, in other words.
    Besides, Light and Shadow were, TO THE TITANS, the fundamental forces of existence, even tho all we know is that they made the Physical Universe, and (kind of, but it's now debatable) the Nether. They don't know of everything regarding the Cosmic Powers, and neither do we.

    Also, the "Ordering of Light and Shadow" can mean many things. Maybe Elune is a creation of the First Ones, in a similar way the Arbiter was, and her mission was to provide structure to their designs, their cosmic "influences", ya know?

    Would be, imo, a better way of explaining Elune than just flatout calling her a "First One", since if she were a First One, I would assume the Jailer or someone else would know by now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    I think Elune is one of the First Ones. In Legion we find out that Elune is the mother to the Naaru and in Chronicle we find out that the Naaru were created at the beginning of the Universe... so put two and two together.
    After thinking about it, maybe not. Maybe she's but a creation of theirs, and her duty was to provide a cosmic structure of the Cosmic Influences.

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    Also, a reminder that the "great ordering of Light and Shadow" can mean anything. The "great ordering" likely meaning the clash and the creation of the Great Dark. I actually totally missed the fact that the "great order" was talked about in Legion, and not SL, which is actually my fault. Ahaha.

    So, who knows wtf Elune even is anymore.

  12. #72
    The Lightbringer Littleraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaelix1 View Post
    I still don't get how a character that supposes to be the voice and influence behind LK Arthas is such a disappointing compare with LK Arthas, so far he seems as generic as freaking Death Wing
    Because they didn't build him up like Arthas. We spent time with Arthas and got to know him as a character and see his journey to becoming LK.

    The Jailer is just some character they pulled out of their ass and expect us to care about. It is my main issue with WoW and them not trying to build up characters really. Villains especially because 9/10 of them just become loot piñatas because they need raid bosses. Imagine if the Jailer had even been teased back in Wrath. And no not just the idea of a big bad but like actually hearing a name or something. Then we could have had them build toward him. But nope. Lets just retcon a ton of shit and throw this guy at you. Lol

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    Now I unleash my final form: me but with a beard!

    (please wait 18 months so my beard get to grow long enough, xoxoxo Jailer)
    I added a little

    You know Jailer raid will be around October 2022 with this info!

  14. #74
    Though, THIS part is what gets me:

    ""Your stoneborn will never find us and your precious Elune has no power here.""

    Considering the First Ones are above the Cosmic Pantheons, and are straight up confirmed to have essentially created the Shadowlands, this line should NOT be a factor if Elune was a First One. So...I'm going to assume she's probably a Light Lord, or a top of the line being of Life, or even a being made by the First Ones themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    I added a little

    You know Jailer raid will be around October 2022 with this info!
    Final raid of SL: ON HALLOWEEN!

    That would actually be the best thing ever.

  15. #75
    If I had to guess I think early on in development there was one character that combined Zovaal and the Primus/RC. Then for some reasons, story or gameplay or both, they wanted to split him into 2 different characters "brothers". Sort of like during OW development they had 1 'ninja' character and it eventually became Hanzo and Genji.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    Having a "reason" to end up Evil, doesn't mean they aren't evil.
    huh?who said they arent evil?the point is that they arent evil because they enjoy it,they do evils things because they think its for the greater good or whatever,they arent fucking mojo jojo

  17. #77
    the only thing i know about the jailer is that he has this impregnable fortess called torghast and no one can leave the maw but we come and go as we please slaughtering everything. once a villain stops feeling threatening, you really cant get that back. no matter what he does in the future, i already know i dunked on his ass a billion times.
    TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by kaelix1 View Post
    I would agree with your if not for the last part, they drag the shit so much at this point is not even funny, an equivalence of what you write there would be watching a 2 hour movie that rushes everything in the last 30min, there is no gratification here champ, just bad storytelling when it comes to the main villain of the shadowlands expansion, the sad part about him is that at this point you don't even care
    You can't really say it's in the last 30 mins of a 2 hour movie when we are currently in the first quarter of the movie, so really it's the first 30 mins with a trailer for the start of the next 30 mins. We are 9.0. I'm sure we will learn a lot by end of 9.1 which is half way. It's chapter 1 of the shadowlands from our perspective so calm down and as I say, let the story unravel.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by MatPandaZ View Post
    You can't really say it's in the last 30 mins of a 2 hour movie when we are currently in the first quarter of the movie, so really it's the first 30 mins with a trailer for the start of the next 30 mins. We are 9.0. I'm sure we will learn a lot by end of 9.1 which is half way. It's chapter 1 of the shadowlands from our perspective so calm down and as I say, let the story unravel.
    i see you are ignoring me, so let me say again: this story has been going on since 2016.
    if we keep this "movie" comparison, then we are in the middle of the third movie of a trilogy, and we still dont know what the first 2 movies were all about. which means ur entire point about people needing "patience" and watever is straight up bs, bc people had patience for 5 years now.
    The crooked shitposter with no eyes is watching from the endless thread.

    From the space that is everywhere and nowhere, the crooked shitposter feasts on memes.

    He has no eyes to see, but he dreams of infinite memeing and trolling.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    the only thing i know about the jailer is that he has this impregnable fortess called torghast and no one can leave the maw but we come and go as we please slaughtering everything. once a villain stops feeling threatening, you really cant get that back. no matter what he does in the future, i already know i dunked on his ass a billion times.
    We're literally prophecised heroes that make Me'dan look like a bitch.

    No shit the Jailer's tower is getting fucked by us.

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