Page 6 of 6 FirstFirst ...
4
5
6
  1. #101
    You can leave a character in mystery for a later time, but you still need to know something tangible about him. Currently we really only know for certain that the other covenant leaders know him and that he feels betrayed.

    Was he the previous arbiter? Was there an afterlife supercontinent that he ruled along with the others? Did he lead a specific covenant area that was later destroyed?

    We don't know anything in that sense. Forget about what his greater plans are, we don't even know what his current plans mean for us.
    It could mean the destruction of the Shadowlands, it could mean he simply escapes. For all we know his plans are literally just to kill Azeroth.

    His interesting qualities are almost entirely tied to other characters we know from before like Ner'zhul and Arthas.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by UndedoKoleda View Post
    Except that the LK wasn't a puppet of the Jailer anymore, at the time he was trying to resurrect Galakrond.



    I feel like this might be one of the very few outcomes that could "save" SL story-wise. We already saw that Uther's soul was split, having Jailer's one split as well could explain why is he acting like a generic cartoon villain with no personality.

    Having no background prior to this expansion is not an excuse. Look at Denathrius, for instance, he had no background as well, but he is miles ahead and people actually like him as a villain(even tho it's not explained why exactly is he working with the Jailer, OR is he the one orchestrating things and actually PLAYING the Jailer for his own benefit).
    Denathrius was just a fun villian, you both like and hate him at a glance without needing to know more and you want to learn more about the guy.

    Quick theory: zorval was a mighty being who took over the shadowlands and created the pocket dimensions and let everyone decide what dimension they went to. Some of the other people didnt like what he did because some people seemingly shouldnt be in certain planes so they did some ritual to split his body, mind and soul in two, one being the arbiter who is mindless and would send people to planes based on objective reasoning and the other is the jailer who is all the cunning and guile and evil who they send to the maw to watch over the worst. The split also split his memories, the only memories he has now is of the injustice done to him and he is missing all other memories of his original ambition.
    In this state they stole half of zorval and enslaved him to be a judge to serve them, the other half is pissed and needs to find a way out. The arbiter is really a cog in a machine, and imagining watching half of your soul being used as a mechanism would be enough to piss anyone off.

    This is pure speculation and hope that they will do something with arguably the most boring villian in wow to date, but i think that it could go a long way to make the story more interesting. In this story the jailer couldnt be anything more than a one note heartless monster because that is all they left for him, the others hoped that punishment and time would make the 'evil' half of zorval change but the circumstances could have only created a monster.
    Once combining with the arbiter (provided that is actually what blizz even has planned) he regains his memories, particularly of his original vision (which if it involves allowing anyone to choose their afterlife aligns entirely with sylvanas's and would fix that plotline too) and then the reason for that rebellion comes to the fore, maybe certain overpowering villians just dominate their chosen afterlives, garrosh becomes the new lord of maldraxxus (creates a portal to stormwind and sacks it because he really hates humans for some reason) arthas becomes the new ruler of bastion, xavius becomes the new ruler of ardenweald and the shadowlands become complete chaos.

    there are actually a LOT of interesting story beats that would play into this too, the kyrian have the whole objective morality thing going on where they sacrifice their own personal persona to serve, representing the arbiter. There are people who seemingly got sent to the wrong zone, like vashj going straight to maldraxxus while kaelthas got sent to revendreth. The runecarver had his memories stolen and hidden from him, perhaps seeding a story of the same thing happening to zorval.

    Im a sucker though that thinks nothing is irredeemable, i still think they can wrap up sylvanas's story in a way that makes sense.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    Denathrius was just a fun villian, you both like and hate him at a glance without needing to know more and you want to learn more about the guy.

    Quick theory: zorval was a mighty being who took over the shadowlands and created the pocket dimensions and let everyone decide what dimension they went to. Some of the other people didnt like what he did because some people seemingly shouldnt be in certain planes so they did some ritual to split his body, mind and soul in two, one being the arbiter who is mindless and would send people to planes based on objective reasoning and the other is the jailer who is all the cunning and guile and evil who they send to the maw to watch over the worst. The split also split his memories, the only memories he has now is of the injustice done to him and he is missing all other memories of his original ambition.
    In this state they stole half of zorval and enslaved him to be a judge to serve them, the other half is pissed and needs to find a way out. The arbiter is really a cog in a machine, and imagining watching half of your soul being used as a mechanism would be enough to piss anyone off.

    This is pure speculation and hope that they will do something with arguably the most boring villian in wow to date, but i think that it could go a long way to make the story more interesting. In this story the jailer couldnt be anything more than a one note heartless monster because that is all they left for him, the others hoped that punishment and time would make the 'evil' half of zorval change but the circumstances could have only created a monster.
    Once combining with the arbiter (provided that is actually what blizz even has planned) he regains his memories, particularly of his original vision (which if it involves allowing anyone to choose their afterlife aligns entirely with sylvanas's and would fix that plotline too) and then the reason for that rebellion comes to the fore, maybe certain overpowering villians just dominate their chosen afterlives, garrosh becomes the new lord of maldraxxus (creates a portal to stormwind and sacks it because he really hates humans for some reason) arthas becomes the new ruler of bastion, xavius becomes the new ruler of ardenweald and the shadowlands become complete chaos.

    there are actually a LOT of interesting story beats that would play into this too, the kyrian have the whole objective morality thing going on where they sacrifice their own personal persona to serve, representing the arbiter. There are people who seemingly got sent to the wrong zone, like vashj going straight to maldraxxus while kaelthas got sent to revendreth. The runecarver had his memories stolen and hidden from him, perhaps seeding a story of the same thing happening to zorval.

    Im a sucker though that thinks nothing is irredeemable, i still think they can wrap up sylvanas's story in a way that makes sense.
    A good villain isn't always about shoehorning unnecessary sympathy. Sometimes a complete bastard can be a good villain, too.

    Sadly, people seem to think having the vague element of sympathetic traits makes someone an interesting character, such as the amazing misconception that Sylvanas hasn't always been a fairly underwhelming character since Warcraft III.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    A good villain isn't always about shoehorning unnecessary sympathy. Sometimes a complete bastard can be a good villain, too.

    Sadly, people seem to think having the vague element of sympathetic traits makes someone an interesting character, such as the amazing misconception that Sylvanas hasn't always been a fairly underwhelming character since Warcraft III.
    It definitely isn't about sympathy. But you need to be able to understand them, their motivations, and actions, at least a little. Zovaal just occassionally walks in, does something and then walks off again, without giving us any clue what he wants, why he wants it or what is driving him beyond an incredibly vague assertion that somebody wronged him and how his actions figure into his plans.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    It definitely isn't about sympathy. But you need to be able to understand them, their motivations, and actions, at least a little. Zovaal just occassionally walks in, does something and then walks off again, without giving us any clue what he wants, why he wants it or what is driving him beyond an incredibly vague assertion that somebody wronged him and how his actions figure into his plans.
    Of course. The issue is that he lacks any menace, reason, or personality. Denathrius is also fairly flat, motive-wise, but he's an interesting character because he has actual personality. Hearing both Zovaal and Sylvanas whine about how the world is bad and unfair and they have good motives etc. etc. would put me to sleep quick.

  6. #106
    Dreadlord Cloudmaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Celestial Planetarium
    Posts
    781
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post

    Also, lol. Remember when people said we'll never face Sargeras cause his left foot was a raid on its own? Well...*Looks at the recent Lore + the Seat of the Pantheon* Ehehe...

    He's next.
    Haha. Imagine Sargeras escaped from the Pantheon now. He would be probably like: “Hey guys! What did you do to my sword, you juiced all the power out of it and now it’s completely useless!”. I mean he could escape when Illidan and the rest of the Titans decided to take a nap for a bit. Would love to see their faces then.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    I'm telling you guys. He's going to resurrect Galakrond.
    Yep. I always thought weird that Hearthstone was releasing a Galakrond focused expansion just out of nowhere and giving him so much different designs. It would be a safe bet tbh.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    A good villain isn't always about shoehorning unnecessary sympathy. Sometimes a complete bastard can be a good villain, too.

    Sadly, people seem to think having the vague element of sympathetic traits makes someone an interesting character, such as the amazing misconception that Sylvanas hasn't always been a fairly underwhelming character since Warcraft III.
    This is the bulk of it. This kind of villain doesn't need to be overly humanized. He's a giant Blue Man who wants to eat reality and runs a torture dimension, any sympathy you try to wring will be piss poor anyway. Leave that for Sylvanas. If anything his problem is that he's too overwritten for what he is. He has too many lines and cares too much about the players, actors and various minor events, yet also doesn't have much to say about them. If he is a death spirit operating on a higher level he should ideally not be talking to the players at all because he is dealing only with high concept cosmic fare and what people who'll be dead in what's a blink of an eye to his lifespan would do is entirely outside his realm of interest.

    But even him being petty isn't disqualifying by itself. Take the Wendigo from Pet Semetary, it too is an evil eldritch force but it spends most of its time being petty, spiteful and cruel in the most personal and vindictive ways because that is what it does. The Jailer being ultimately a low figure who has nothing else left to him except his being slighted by his family and who wants to inflict his perceived misery on everyone else would also work just fine. The things others project onto him like Devos, Sylvanas and even Denathrius regarding the primacy of death would be just that - excuses for someone who just wants to rub salt in every wound out there because he's seen nothing but the very lowest of mortal lives for an arbitrarily long time.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •