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  1. #81
    I see a lot of people talking about casual players and it's really confusing why the focus is on casuals here. I'm not by any means a casual player and I love having alternative paths of progression to play that aren't just grinding out the same 8 dungeons for 2 years straight.

    I want some other way that I can play the game to break up the monotony of constant dungeon runs while at the same time give me something that can actually progress my character.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    If you are the type of casual that only does queued content, how do you progress your character?
    I can't speak for others, but I don't particularly care about character power progression. The Covenant gear is nice because it quickly gets you to the point where you can comfortably do most activities in the game other than Mythic raids or high M+ dungeons. I prefer a mix of challenging solo content (Mage Tower, Twisting Corridors, Visions), alternate progression (Garrisons, Class Halls), and a bit of transmog/mount farming rather than chasing ilvl increases. The issue with Shadowlands in my opinion is that Covenant progression (the anima grind) is painfully slow and very unrewarding. Twisting Corridors was kinda fun, but it takes WAY too long to do for fun after beating layer 8.

  3. #83
    The Lightbringer Sanguinerd's Avatar
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    Or.. instead of all that jazz let casuals use the valor they're getting anyway to purchase 200+ gear.

    Also add a valor reward to a daily random hc and we're good to go.
    Subarashii chin chin mono
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  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azerate View Post
    I'm not sure if you're trolling right now or being serious.

    Let me repeat once again: taking something away or making it harder is not adding progression. It's removing it.

    The increased anima costs / potential other costs should apply, but for items higher than 197, which sadly aren't there (and they should be).
    And what I'm getting at is that there are effectively "power bands" in the game.
    People who don't do organized group content have a "power band" cap of around 200.
    If they reach that really fast, as a great many of them have upwards of a month and a half ago, then the progression path itself was garbage.

    Before SL, the casual content consisted of open world stuff as well as "non-organized" group content (read: LFG for normal/heroic, LFR).
    Now, normal/heroic dungeons are basically pointless beyond the first 3 weeks of launch, and even LFR is largely pointless, aside from filler items, because covenant gear eclipses those.
    That's the problem with gearing like this for a casual base; you devalue the content that they would consume because it's simply better and easier to get through the covenant.

    Slowing the path down, as I previously mentioned (via a time machine, as in "don't do it right now, but if we could go back a year, plan it this way" type), was to create a more involved path that would effectively value normal/heroic dungeon content for longer for the casual base because of the anima cost to upgrade the "free" gear (you get each piece, at a varied upgrade state at a different stage of the campaign) so that their content would be a little bit more effective and they would have a ceiling to reach raid-level gear.
    I think casuals running heroics and seeing value in 171s for a little longer than 6 weeks would have been better for the game, but that's just my opinion (I see "playing content" better than "unsubbing or just running old stuff bc nothing to do").

    People who raid, run M+, do lots of PVP, they wouldn't need this path, and that would be fine.
    They could very easily get 184ish level in a couple hours of dinging and move on to the organized content they enjoy rather quickly thereafter.
    It would be around for the casuals who need that extra little lift.
    That's all I'm saying.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    I personally ding 60, spend a few hours powering to 197 ilvl, then work on getting ~+5s done for each dungeon to build up a little score. Once I get over 200 and my mains score starts showing, I go higher and higher. Trying to get at least a few 10s done by the 2nd week.
    You literally can skip the 197 and jump straight into mythic0 and keys.

    On my priest I did 1 mythic0 once i hit 60 than ean +5-10s. Took me 2hrs to his 200ilvl

  6. #86
    "Now that I have the gear, can we nerf it so others can't do it?"

    That's literally your post.

  7. #87
    Stood in the Fire
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    hehehehehehe im currently on my 6th alt gearing like this before i jump into RAIDING and PVP, its never been more alt-friendly then now and you can perform decent in cov gear + pvp off pieces + ilvl 194 WQ trinkets

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Casuals typically aren't doing content that requires a premade group, they queue for stuff. So while that's correct, it doesn't really apply.

    The elitist attitude, "l2p or quit", etc, is delightful and I really appreciate it deeply but the bottom line is the bottom line, and Activision would strongly prefer to keep casuals paying $14.99 per month.
    You'd think so, but after ions comments today in the Preach interview in the news section, I'm really not so sure.

    Go do the new gemscore thorghast for........ Fun?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanguinerd View Post
    Or.. instead of all that jazz let casuals use the valor they're getting anyway to purchase 200+ gear.

    Also add a valor reward to a daily random hc and we're good to go.
    Ding ding ding ding ding. Winner winner chicken dinner. In other words, what made the game actually popular during WotLK.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    It's far too late to fix this, but what they should have done is simple - make covenant gear and honor upgradable to 184 not 197. That way it's on the same level as LFR and M0, so a player has options... want
    I disagree, because even ilvl 184 obsoletes normal, heroic, M0 dungeons and LFR. If it was capped at 184 there would still be no reason to do those things. That would be an improvement, but it isn't the answer.

    Ideally, you want players to experience and benefit from all the content. So maybe you just make gear drop like rain at lower progression levels. Normal dungeons you're guaranteed a drop off every boss. Heroic, 50% chance. M0 and LFR, 33%. The effect would be the same, everybody would get that gear, but at least they'd have to do some content rather than just spending a bit of anima.

    Don't get me wrong, obsoleting content is generally fine, that's what catch-up gear is for. But you don't give catch-up gear until the next patch!

    I would also make mythic0 queueable. Or really, just remove it, it confuses people.
    Last edited by Schizoide; 2021-04-27 at 07:29 PM.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Duese View Post
    The entire point of this reward progression was to have alternative paths of progression. Why would they remove it when it was put in specifically as an alternative to the dungeon spam.
    They'd need to actually be alternatives instead of "you can ALSO do this!"

    Wow doesn't need no-lyfers out-pacing everyone's progression. If they want to no-lyfe, they can do it purely for the love of the game and not because they're chasing a carrot.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    They'd need to actually be alternatives instead of "you can ALSO do this!"
    It is an alternative until they abandon those progression paths and force everyone into m+ and raiding.

    Wow doesn't need no-lyfers out-pacing everyone's progression. If they want to no-lyfe, they can do it purely for the love of the game and not because they're chasing a carrot.
    Wow already has no lifers out-pacing everyone's progression. Just come to terms with that right now. Once you come to terms with it, then realize that punishing other players who aren't no-lifing the game but want to actually have progression isn't a rational answer.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Duese View Post
    Once you come to terms with it, then realize that punishing other players who aren't no-lifing the game but want to actually have progression isn't a rational answer.
    Who said anything about punishing casuals? I'm all for them getting to work towards gear upgrades somehow, I just also think you should actually be forced to choose where those upgrades come from instead of being able to do literally everything and accelerate your progress hugely.

    The great vault is near-perfect, with the exception that you can still endlessly farm drops from other repeatable sources (pvp and M+) and the fact that they need to add some faceroll pleb activity all the casuals can complete. Make vault the only source for high-tier rewards and increase it to like 2-4 pieces a week instead if you must. My issue is with people pulling the endless casino lever.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    I see a lot of casuals complaining about lack of progression which is a very valid complaint. I believe the main culprit is covenant gear. There are 9 pieces of covenant gear that scale up to 197. Within a few hours of hitting 60, all that's required is to do the campaign, then knock out the 2 750 anima dungeon quests, and the 1 1250 anima sire quest from lfr. In 5 or so hours, casuals get 9 pieces of 197 gear, and a 187 weapon. Can pvp for a few hours and fill in the offslots with 197 honor gear.

    This has ruined the previous pathway of progression. No need to do normals that grant 158. No need for heroics that grant 171. No need for mythic 0 that grants 184. No need for LFR (besides the sire quest, or 1 boss for a specific lego) that grant 187. No need for world quests which i believe grant 194. All of these are almost instantly obsolete within 24 hours of hitting 60.

    The only "casual" content left is callings once a day for a low chance of up to 203 ilvl gear. World boss once a week for a low chance of 207. And 2 layers of torghast once a week until they get their 235 lego.

    The next step for them to get gear drops, is normal raids that only drop 200/207. Or step into heroic for 213/220. M+7 for 200 drops or m+2 for a once a week reward for 200 from the vault. Or do queued pvp for slow trickle of conquest to get 200 ilvl, or get up to at least 1400 in rated for 207. Certain "casuals" have expressed some form of aversion to this content, I believe because it's unqueued.

    If covenant gear got nerfed to a lower ilvl, or timegated in someway, maybe similar to the great vault with weekly capped upgrades, then casuals would get back the progression they are asking for. Would casuals prefer this progression? Or do they prefer the easy 197 gear?
    This is where I am at with my limited play time I dinged max level on my 2 alts and then all the sudden I was the same Ilvl as my main that took me weeks to get to 208 and I was there on my Pally the day after hitting max level. It was just too fast for the content I consume.

  14. #94
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    I disagree, because even ilvl 184 obsoletes normal, heroic, M0 dungeons and LFR. If it was capped at 184 there would still be no reason to do those things. That would be an improvement, but it isn't the answer.

    Ideally, you want players to experience and benefit from all the content. So maybe you just make gear drop like rain at lower progression levels. Normal dungeons you're guaranteed a drop off every boss. Heroic, 50% chance. M0 and LFR, 33%. The effect would be the same, everybody would get that gear, but at least they'd have to do some content rather than just spending a bit of anima.

    Don't get me wrong, obsoleting content is generally fine, that's what catch-up gear is for. But you don't give catch-up gear until the next patch!

    I would also make mythic0 queueable. Or really, just remove it, it confuses people.
    Eh, I see your point but LFR dropping 184 doesnt obsolete M0 or vice versa. Making it all 184 would have let people choose whatever path they wanted to in order to get entry level gear. Normal CN would still have been upgrades, as would lower keys.

    Had they done this, you would have had a nice progression curve from dinging, maybe a few heroics, some various activities for 184 gear and the on to M2-10, N CN and rated PVP for going beyond that.

    As it is, you race to 197 with honor and covenant gear, then nothing gives upgrades until M10+, the vault, heroic CN or the odd low percentage chance from a world boss.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by vsb View Post
    If someone spends 1 hour/week, that's already 6 months of gameplay. Also it's unlikely that casuals are aware of that optimized path, therefore even hardcore casuals are likely to spend hours on fishing, pet collecting and other stuff rather than focusing on gear.

    Also complaining about heroic dungeons being irrelevant is kind of late, I think. They were irrelevant outside of first addon week for many years.
    Then why are they coming here complaining about not getting gear?

  16. #96
    Mechagnome terminaltrip421's Avatar
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    speaking as a casual, the only one of my 4 60s that upgraded all of their covenant gear - despite all of them still using it - is the first one I leveled. too expensive to do it on all of them considering I'm doing the bare minimum of trying to get to renown 40 and just pets and mounts which require some sanctum upgrades.

    what are these dungeon and LFR quests that give 750-1250 anima?

  17. #97
    No they need to up other gear

  18. #98
    Mechagnome terminaltrip421's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jujudrood View Post
    That's the problem with gearing like this for a casual base; you devalue the content that they would consume because it's simply better and easier to get through the covenant.
    except what if they wouldn't consume it? I wouldn't. I stopped running LFR when there were still bonus rolls, you think I'd do it now without them?

  19. #99
    Stood in the Fire Guilford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by terminaltrip421 View Post
    speaking as a casual, the only one of my 4 60s that upgraded all of their covenant gear - despite all of them still using it - is the first one I leveled. too expensive to do it on all of them considering I'm doing the bare minimum of trying to get to renown 40 and just pets and mounts which require some sanctum upgrades.

    what are these dungeon and LFR quests that give 750-1250 anima?
    Sanguine Depths quest gives 750 anima upon completion and Denathrius, even in raid finder, gives a quest chain that rewards 2500 anima in total.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adoxe View Post
    If anyone still believes Sylvanas is responsible, you've not been paying attention.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Eh, I see your point but LFR dropping 184 doesnt obsolete M0 or vice versa. Making it all 184 would have let people choose whatever path they wanted to in order to get entry level gear. Normal CN would still have been upgrades, as would lower keys.
    It would be a reasonable choice if they all involved the same amount of effort, but covenant gear basically drops out of the skies into your bags.

    WoW has always (well, for 10+ years at least) had a problem with content that really, nobody ever needs to do. Normal dungeons in particular-- why do they exist? And (relatively) recently since Legion, world quests gave better than heroic dungeon gear, so why do they exist? And now in Shadowlands, WQs and covenants give equivalent gear to mythic+6 and LFR and are much less effort, so why do they exist? Who would ever do this content, with no meaningful rewards?

    This wastes an enormous swathe of content. Why bother developing content if players aren't going to consume it? Covenant gear short-circuits all those rewards and renders that content obsolete in the same patch where it started, and that is poor game design.
    Last edited by Schizoide; 2021-04-27 at 11:29 PM.

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