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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    Well that is most certainly true. In the +10-+13 region are a lot of bad players. You can quite easily beat them even though you have 10-15 ilvl less.
    He said 20 ilvl, and no you people are just as clueless as he is. I saw players like Venruki, Cdew, Zilea, all former blizzcon champions go through the gearing process with their alts and they couldn't win games when they had 200-210 ilvl playing against fully geared players.

    His statement is outright moronic. If you have two players of equal skill, one at 206 ilvl and one at 226, the one with 226 will win 100 out of 100 times. And even when the 206 player is a lot more skilled they still lose, I actually saw it happen live on twitch.
    Last edited by Ulfric Trumpcloak; 2021-04-28 at 01:32 AM.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Zorachus View Post
    LOL at the white knights simps, defending Shittylands and Ion on this craptastic expansion.

    I waana see WoW go back to MoP type design. Eliminate all "systems" like Artifact, Azerite, Covenants, Netherlight Crucibles, Necklaces, Essences, Corruption, Soulbinds, Anima, Conduits, Soul Ash, etc...

    None of the above should be in WoW.

    Nuke it from space, it's the only way to be sure.
    yeah, sign that. but if you kill the treadmill design and

    - stop recycling of gfx and content
    - remove borrowed power systems
    - remove cheap UI and DB based „systems“
    - stop cheap shit story
    - remove all the „reward systems“
    - put in effort and time
    - stop milking the cow mode
    - stop doing cost effective development
    - increase product quality
    - stop bad writing
    - stop producing cheap shit stuff to create a longer „feature“ list
    ...

    so, if they finally do ALL of this, i ask you 2 questions:

    1)
    how can you differ WoW Retail from WoW Classic TBC then ?

    2)
    and most important: behind WHAT they should hide their „smart cash grab supporting game design“ then ?

    heh?



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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorshen View Post
    Valor system needs adjustments.
    you mean stuff like making it rather useless for 80%+ of the players ? stuff like that ?
    Last edited by Niwes; 2021-04-28 at 01:33 AM.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    Learn some maths. It isn't.
    reading comprehension, he made two statements that directly contradict each other not me

  4. #244
    Elemental Lord callipygoustp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blayze View Post
    "Players loved X, and we loved X, so we're not doing X."
    It does certainly feel that way at times.

  5. #245
    My health issues made me take a break from WoW.. and what im seeing here.. im not missing much

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulfric Trumpcloak View Post
    This dude has no idea what he's talking about.
    What if I told you many people agree, both on the +20 and -20 side of the deal?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormspellz View Post
    so if ilvl is 1:1% power, 20ilvls is 20% increased power, and that that isn't some how a big gap....w....t.....f is he smoking
    Thats not how it works.....at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vsb View Post
    warcraftlogs, Sludgefist heroic, boomkins.

    200-202 ilvl: 4192 DPS 75%, 4956 DPS 95%, 5665 DPS 99%.
    209-211 ilvl: 5041 DPS 75% (+20%), 5916 DPS 95% (+19%), 6421 DPS 99% (+13%)
    221-223 ilvl: 6909 DPS 75% (+37%), 7802 DPS 95% (+31%), 8319 DPS 99% (+29%)
    227-229 ilvl: 8407 DPS 75% (+21%), 9149 DPS 95% (+17%), 10101 DPS 99% (+21%)

    1 ilvl does NOT equal to 1% performance. It seems that Ion has no idea about his own game.
    Is this all the same player? Can you prove there were ZERO other factors impacting their play per log? And lastly - thats NOT what was said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    It would be awesome if you could just sign yourself up to do let's say M+15 Mists and have your name listed automatically for group leaders to consider in their 15 Mists run, while you merrily do your stuff.
    That is exactly how it should work.

  8. #248
    Good interview. Blizzard doesn't need to go back to trying to please every grey parsing pet battler that doesn't actually try or engage in the content.

    All these people crying about not having full 226 when they get out dpsed by a healer is delicious.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    LOL. Are you really seeing 100% difference? Hahahaha. It is a skill thing buddy. First place for you to start is to see if you're actually using a weapon. Check to see if it's using you're preferred stat. If you're a druid for example, check that it's int or agi. A staff can't have both. Then google "how do I dps as a <insert class>"
    "It is a skill thing buddy." ahhh here we see an example of the WoW community in their natural habitat. This shit never gets old.

  10. #250
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zorachus View Post
    LOL at the white knights simps, defending Shittylands and Ion on this craptastic expansion.

    I waana see WoW go back to MoP type design. Eliminate all "systems" like Artifact, Azerite, Covenants, Netherlight Crucibles, Necklaces, Essences, Corruption, Soulbinds, Anima, Conduits, Soul Ash, etc...

    None of the above should be in WoW.

    Nuke it from space, it's the only way to be sure.
    So go back to mop which had lots of its own systems like challenge mode, scenarios, valor vendor, valor upgrades, and more! yeah way better. and the OG garrison.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    What if I told you many people agree, both on the +20 and -20 side of the deal?

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    Thats not how it works.....at all.

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    Is this all the same player? Can you prove there were ZERO other factors impacting their play per log? And lastly - thats NOT what was said.
    Go sim a character of 200 Ilevel vs one of 220 Ilevel, its literally double DPS in even JUST sims.
    "Power level from item rating has not changed even since Wrath. 1 item level is basically the equivalent of 1%." - would love to hear you explain this to where Ion isn't completely delusional.

  12. #252
    Funny how literally no one asked for half these changes that are occurring...

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by kiramon View Post
    The item level thing is just ridiculous.

    This is clearly observable. Maybe he forgot the ilvl squish. Idk, but it's definitely not 1% per ilvl, and it's definitely more disparity from 210 to 220 than 190-200. I can sim my character in 200 and then 220 if he wants to see the difference from a theoretical sim using the exact same "skill level."

    He is just wrong.
    I think people are getting confused over the lack of a somewhat realistic example. Take the now pretty basic Community issue of Mythic+ and Pugging. I'm going to PuG a +15 Halls on my 226 NF Fury Warrior. Usually I end those keys on anywhere from 9.7k-11.4k overall DPS over the entire key, depending on Affixes. Multiple times (I'm not picky with classes when doing my 14's and 15's for vault and don't push a whole lot), I'd invite other warriors. By now I have so many examples of other warriors with the exact same item level, roughly the same overall stats (which barely make a difference around this iLvL, as long as you're not loaded on crit for whatever reason), using the same trinkets, soulbinds, everything ----

    --- who just cannot fucking get close to even 5-6k overall for the Dungeon. They are in the range of ~40-50% lower on DPS than me with roughly the same general idea of gearing or build or whatever you wanna call it. Now take a guild buddy of mine who rolled a warrior alt currently in the 210-215 area rn, roughly knows his stuff, though not exactly the same as me. I can take him on that key and on average he'll usually pull the respectable 7-8k margin overall.

    Now, there's a couple of fallacies here that I could call out, but the smart guys will get it. If you can play a class mechanically, Ion's example will roughly hold up. Maybe not to the T on sims, but if you play with proper players and take into account all the different factors that make up that DPS number in a practical scenario, you'll eventually come to the conclusion that yeah... feeding players some written guides with very little nuance of play, especially when those players are just looking for an easy way in and act as if the sim and the guide is the end all be all scenario. Just go take a look at a class discord and you'll see the average joe that likely complains about this gap and then turns it into a popular question for Preach to consider asking. Go find the best player of a class you can find on your friend's list, tell them to get a log analyzed and watch the first mistake pop up within the first 5-10 seconds of the logs timeline.

    Call it confirmation bias through practical scenarios, but.. yeah, I agree with the general idea of Ion's statement. Instead of whining over it, maybe the people who really feel the sting enough to go nuts over the comment, should consider making the statement that if this skill issue exists, does the gap even need to be in the 20-25% margin in the first place, seeing as players are clearly more than capable to widen that gap by sabotaging themselves or playing badly.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Goron24 View Post
    Go sim a character of 200 Ilevel vs one of 220 Ilevel, its literally double DPS in even JUST sims.
    "Power level from item rating has not changed even since Wrath. 1 item level is basically the equivalent of 1%." - would love to hear you explain this to where Ion isn't completely delusional.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...DjqgYYSFbsrYax

    Sim of my character with full Mythic gear (226/233) vs absolutely same gear at Normal level (200/207), legendary scaled down to 210, every piece is 200, except for last boss pieces - at 207, as per what normal raids drop.




    It's almost precisely 20%, so Ion is on spot and there go your feels.
    Here you go. Any comments on this?
    Last edited by arkanon; 2021-04-28 at 03:27 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    What if I told you many people agree, both on the +20 and -20 side of the deal?

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    Thats not how it works.....at all.

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    Is this all the same player? Can you prove there were ZERO other factors impacting their play per log? And lastly - thats NOT what was said.
    Would like to personally check those logs in the example here as well, but I've seen enough Boomkin analyzation lately to be able to tell you, the lower you go on the iLvL margin for Sludgefist and Boomkins specifically, the more you'll see shit like CA misalignment (don't ask me how people do it..), you'll see some comp-based factors take the center stage, kill times - especially for boomie -.. so on so forth. Sludgefist in general is a very bad example to hone in on the realistic differences between player performance and iLvL gap. This is something you'd best compare on a dummy with two players of equal skill at different item levels. Actual practical key or boss play will always deviate from the Sims and suffer greatly from any RNG impact, effective combat uptime/mechanics yada yada. The only thing worse you could've picked is comparing 200 iLvL of one melee class vs item level 220 of that same melee class on Artificer lmao. And it's Heroic, there's no way most of those 227-229 logs aren't just log run parses, while most of the 200-202 iLvL ones are fresh boomkin players and alts getting carried.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Here you go. Any comments on this?
    I am shocked by this turn of events. Seriously though, as toxic as it sounds, not at all surprise that the sim reflects this. As said in my other 2 posts, practical scenarios will actually -not- reflect this, but that's because those scenarios are far from the specific sim profiles available to us and there's more to raw, practical DPS than just what the sim tells you, iLvL, etc. - Sims are a good tool to cut theorycrafting short, but a good margin of what it produces you can either match or exceed in given scenarios by just... applying critical thinking to your choices.

    People on these forums just really don't know what they are talking about when they try picking apart Ion's statement. And I'm not particularly satisfied with the interview either.. doesn't mean we gotta lob logic to the wayside for it.
    Last edited by Dismayxz; 2021-04-28 at 03:34 AM.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Dismayxz View Post
    Would like to personally check those logs in the example here as well, but I've seen enough Boomkin analyzation lately to be able to tell you, the lower you go on the iLvL margin for Sludgefist and Boomkins specifically, the more you'll see shit like CA misalignment (don't ask me how people do it..), you'll see some comp-based factors take the center stage, kill times - especially for boomie -.. so on so forth. Sludgefist in general is a very bad example to hone in on the realistic differences between player performance and iLvL gap. This is something you'd best compare on a dummy with two players of equal skill at different item levels. Actual practical key or boss play will always deviate from the Sims and suffer greatly from any RNG impact, effective combat uptime/mechanics yada yada. The only thing worse you could've picked is comparing 200 iLvL of one melee class vs item level 220 of that same melee class on Artificer lmao. And it's Heroic, there's no way most of those 227-229 logs aren't just log run parses, while most of the 200-202 iLvL ones are fresh boomkin players and alts getting carried.
    Yeah, i guess thats what i was leaning towards a bit - too many variables. Many classes are famous, or infamous, for having MASSIVE variance in output between attempts, based on procs, duration, and even little stuff like who is assigned to adds. When i was playing arms, many many moons ago, i was on adds for an add heavy fight - i would spin to win, do ALL the damages, and pump some insane numbers. After a few attempts i swapped from adds to boss, and someone else took over - obviously this is an extreme example, but i think i did close to double the dps between attempts.

    And when people start comparing a mythically geared player with a normal geared player, they seem to forget the core of what Ion was saying - there is very likely already a HUGE difference in player skill between the normally geared player and the mythically geared player. The best way to "prove" it is to load up a sim. The second best way is to have the same player have 2 toons - one at 200, and one at 220, and go at the dummy for multiple 10 minute sets, then average them out and compare. Whats NOT a good way to look at it is to compare some random logs and say "see! the gap is more than 20%!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulfric Trumpcloak View Post
    He said 20 ilvl, and no you people are just as clueless as he is. I saw players like Venruki, Cdew, Zilea, all former blizzcon champions go through the gearing process with their alts and they couldn't win games when they had 200-210 ilvl playing against fully geared players.

    His statement is outright moronic. If you have two players of equal skill, one at 206 ilvl and one at 226, the one with 226 will win 100 out of 100 times. And even when the 206 player is a lot more skilled they still lose, I actually saw it happen live on twitch.
    That's... -not- what he said? He didn't deny the gap was there alltogether, of course comparing equal skill, different item levels, the higher item level player is going to win, as any potential skill gaps do not apply. The entire question is based on this idiotic idea that the 20 item level gap produces player differences in the mathematical 50-100% range on performance difference or something drastic like that. Which just isn't true. A skillcapped player of 200 iLvL in a PvE setting, giving a mirrored example will always be roughly ~20% below the other guy of equal skill at the ~220 margin. That question was purely referencing gear, so you'd immediately assume that soulbinds etc. is all the same. The only time the gap widens is when the scenario in question is either volatile or the skill balance between the example actors changes. You could call it lawyer speak on his part, but the mathematical difference of gear impact is pretty much right. What isn't being taken into account is all the shit outside of it that can produce large gaps in performance. You could compare two 226's of a current NF class that benefits from First Strike a lot and then realize that a 20% gap can easily be found if you just take a single parse of a big pull in M+ or something and compare a bad First Strike uptime player of a class against one with perfect First Strike extension.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Eh... to each their own.

    IMO, M+ is a great addition to the game, clearly a successful mode. But then WoW raiding in itself is pretty awesome, it is a big part of what keeps people playing WoW - the best raiding experience of any popular MMO and the social guild aspect with it, which is also pretty big.

    I really don't think there is any need to unite or separate these modes - they are good as they are.
    I do find the difficulty of M+ is overrewarded in comparison to raiding. Raiding itself isn't much difficult once raid groups have to the experience and strats down, but it does however require much more coordination between 10-30 players than a 5 man group does. Not to mention certain bosses that are absolute progress jammers.

    In comparison to M+ where if a dungeon is too difficult for a group, they need not do it and to just do a different key. There are certain dungeons that just aren't done often, especially when comboed with less favourable affixes.

    M+ is great content that absolutely belongs in the game. I'm just not a fan of it being overrewarding, dampening raid progression, and having static gear. I would however be quite happy if Blizz were to swap out dungeon gear with new gear every new season. New transmogs, new stats and trinkets, hell even give us dungeon tier sets like how it was back in classic.

    A way to put a wedge between M+ and raiding would be to give raiding gear raid-specific tier sets, and M+ dungeon-specific tier sets. That way, M+ wouldn't dampen raid progress or vice versa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggressive View Post
    I apologize. Maybe I came off a little too harsh. I do agree with you. Raiding right now is NOT rewarding enough IMO. The amount of loot to drop per boss is asinine. Some would agree with my statement and some like the way loot is, which is stupid. But they are entitled to their opinion. I just know this expansion started off fun but the developers quickly threw a monkey wrench into the party and quickly fucked that up..........royally. I got super damn lucky to have friends who said we will teach you about the +15 dungeons and help you time them all so that you can upgrade your gear. However I know some players are not so lucky as I was and are still struggling. So IMO the valor system is straight shit as it is right now.
    All good!

    I totally agree with you. There are a lot of things they could have done differently, better. Valor was a total miss, and the buff to raid drops clearly isn't enough as raiding still feels like a massive waste of time. The last two paragraphs of what I posted above is something I'd propose to help out while keeping both sides happy. That way M+ wouldn't need to reduce its ilvl to accomodate for raiders feeling useless.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Yeah, i guess thats what i was leaning towards a bit - too many variables. Many classes are famous, or infamous, for having MASSIVE variance in output between attempts, based on procs, duration, and even little stuff like who is assigned to adds. When i was playing arms, many many moons ago, i was on adds for an add heavy fight - i would spin to win, do ALL the damages, and pump some insane numbers. After a few attempts i swapped from adds to boss, and someone else took over - obviously this is an extreme example, but i think i did close to double the dps between attempts.

    And when people start comparing a mythically geared player with a normal geared player, they seem to forget the core of what Ion was saying - there is very likely already a HUGE difference in player skill between the normally geared player and the mythically geared player. The best way to "prove" it is to load up a sim. The second best way is to have the same player have 2 toons - one at 200, and one at 220, and go at the dummy for multiple 10 minute sets, then average them out and compare. Whats NOT a good way to look at it is to compare some random logs and say "see! the gap is more than 20%!"
    It's lawyer speak, like I just responded to Ulfric. In the given example, which was neither PvE or PvP, but just taking averages with that gear in a vacuum, the statement holds up. Yet to see examples of that not being the case. Now this may sound like a defense of Ion, but.. it goes without saying that there are more variables at play than just gear in a vacuum. But more often than not, these are either very easily spotted - or appear due to a difference in player performance, usually reference by 'skill'. If I compare two Warriors running Korayn in M+ at the same item level and one perfectly made use of First Strike the entire key, while the other one only did so in a basic fashion or did not care about it's uptime at all, I can tell you the difference is gonna be higher tan 20% over the entire key, regardless of identical gear. And that's just one little offensive passive in a single soulbind tree.

    I call that depth and something one can work on as a player. Someone else on here may call that bullshit while their boomer ass falls asleep on the login screen.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    Is this an indication that maybe the “raiders” weren’t actually all that interested in raiding in the first place?
    Nobody did heroic dungeons back when heroic was the only difficulty. Mythic was introduced to change that, and later M+ and its bloated ilvls were added to further change that.

    Remove the better-than-heroic-raids ilvl gear and nobody would do M+, according to your logic.

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