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  1. #321
    I am Murloc!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rustykeyboard View Post
    what people on this forum doesnt realize about "gear" vs "skills" is that Preach is worried about power creep. And its in the first tier of Shadowlands. The difference in dmg between 226 compared to 200 for instance is too much. This leads to 200 ilvl geared chars being left in the dust. And thus leads to more toxic community perception on gear.

    Watcher on the other hand says its not about gear, theres no power creep. It is all about skills. Those with extra gear deals more dmg because they have better understanding of the spec they are playing, and gear is not that important. And the high numbers is a result from they press the right buttons in the right order. So the numbers are natural and not inflated via ilvls.
    Ion also pointed out that they decreased the gap between difficulties, from 15 to 13. It doesn't seem like much, but it's 6ilvl per tier, so that'd be 18-24ilvl across expansion (more like 24-30 if we include initial gearing from 5 mans). It's not a massive difference, but it will lower the power creep a bit. Also, there's the removal of Titanforging, which would let items get an extra +10 ilvls over mythic quality, so that's another bit of inflation gone.

    The actual level of power creep depends on secondary powers they'll add in future patches. Extra rows in soulbinds, conduit ranks, (whatever mawtouched is supposed to be). Still, I doubt we'll see anything as crazy as corruption stacking, which was absurdly overpowered. We might see a big spike once they allow second legendary, but that won't happen for a while (if at all).

    All in all - we're nowhere near what Preach claimed, where geared players are doing "several times the damage" of undergeared ones. The only time such discrepancy happens is during mass AOE, and it's more about some classes having uncapped AOE/massive burst damage. That's another issue entirely, one that doesn't have much to do with gear.

    Also - I assume that when Ion says "skill", he means more than just "clicking proper buttons". It's also preparation - having BiS talents, legendaries, soulbind, consumables, all buffs, taking advantage of burst windows. These things are far more important than merely having stronger gear. And Preach knows this - he recently made a video where he pointed out how some random player wasted multiple global cooldowns on something as easy as Shriekwing (heroic?). The harder the boss, the easier it is to mess up and watch your damage plummet.

  2. #322
    interesting takes. But, after having read through ur post most of it is false, or strawmen arguments & making stuff up.

  3. #323
    People have literally posted sims showing same exact gear, scaled 20 ilvls higher, is ~20% more dmg.

    Then ppl try to counter it by comparing normal logs to mythic raiders? Or even logs from first week when ppl were learning, to now when its on farm? The dude stuck in normal is there for a reason. The guy in mythic is much better. That's the skill. The guy clearing the boss on farm has much more experience and is executing his rotation with more skill compared to the first time he downed it. The fights are also shorter because of the entire raid doing more dps, leading to higher uptime on bloodlust.

    If ppl spent as much time learning rotations and fights, as they do coming up with excuses, they'd be doing more dmg

  4. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    People have literally posted sims showing same exact gear, scaled 20 ilvls higher, is ~20% more dmg.
    Things those sims don't take into account:

    - Different item levels of conduits.

    - In PvP hit points and damage reduction matter a lot. So that is additional difference, which I've experienced myself by not being able to do anything against higher geared players when doing some PvP for fun, even if they played badly. Oh, btw, that issue is going to be even bigger in next patch.

    Difference is bigger than sims show because sims are not taking into account other stuff. Then when you consider that people with lower gear don't have perfect stats, don't have sockets everywhere, whole sim comparison become pointless and absolutely do not reflect real life situations. Anyone with a brain understands that people with lower gear don't have it optimised as much as people with high end raiding gear.
    "Those who can convince you to believe absurdities can convince you to commit atrocities." ~Voltaire
    I feel the above truly reflect what is happening in the US and its allies, or has been happening for some time.

  5. #325
    Epic! Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    M+ absolutely does bring a lot more to the table, but like I stated above, it also dampens raid progression.
    Alternatively it can also help raid progression. The gearing from M+ also (generally) boosts players gear progression which in turn provides more throughput against tougher raid encounters (i.e. Gear check bosses).

    It is a difficult balance and I think the elimination of raid tier sets dampening raid loot more. In SoD, there's at least 2 hunter specific items that would drive some hunters to want to farm the raid for. More items like those should be in raids to drive raiding interest over M+ interest. Instead of removing or nerfing M+ loot drops (which are already lower compared to previous xpac's M+)
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  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Yeah.. no. You are 100% wrong. SL is the most casual friendly the game has ever been. Vanilla was more sweaty than SL. If you think SL caters to the top players, frankly your just wrong.
    Kaplan has forgotten more about making great games than ion is capable of ever learning even if he lived to be 1000 years old.

    Dude has devolved WoW from an mmorpg to an mmo arpg. It has more in common with Diablo 3 than everquest, and that’s a problem

  7. #327

    Wrath says hello

    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    Professions haven't been relevant since TBC
    I enjoyed my extra sockets and bigger gems in Wrath. They helped me gain agility and hit armor pen cap throughout the expansion.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    It does not work by picking up up some random hunter from rio.
    You have to take your hunter, upscale same items to 225ilvl, same fight length, same consumables and raid buffs, same sockets and same conduits and same conduit ilvl.
    And same group, because kill times matter.

  8. #328
    Epic! Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorshen View Post
    Valor system needs adjustments.
    Elaborate more? What kind of adjustments? Also note that valor currently was added mid-Season 1. So it would look different in Season 2 with a fresh season.
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  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by kiramon View Post
    Yeah, cuz thats exactly how this game works these days - it is all about choice, not feast or famine. Righttt. As if everyone else in the world is choosing to wear a 197 piece of gear with 44 vers over haste or some crap and you are just soO much smarter that you and only you know better. Lmao.

    Using your brain is part of skill, too.
    Because it's so hard to get pieces at Normal raid level with stats you prefer... clearly insurmountable challenge with all the bajillion fucking options you have at that gear level.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Thundering View Post
    so they have finally agreed they have been leading the game in the wrong direction since cata...... Maybe Classic has made them see a better game.......
    Nice now we need to see the fixes ingame...
    Oh look a victim of Ion's lawyer talk. The things he says, he says for many many years and the way he says them makes different people interpret it differently, because 90% of his talk is vague non-committal musings.

    KEKW.

  10. #330
    Epic! Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    So go back to mop which had lots of its own systems like challenge mode, scenarios, valor vendor, valor upgrades, and more! yeah way better. and the OG garrison.
    Also a lot of rep grinding (depending on your count upwards of 10~11 reps to grind to at least revered if not exalted per toon). Daily quest hubs with daily quest limit.

    Currently in SL we have like 5 primary reps (1 for each covenant and Ven'ari). Technically there are a few extra side reps (Avowed, Court of Night, etc).
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  11. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by MechanoDruid View Post
    Things those sims don't take into account:

    - Different item levels of conduits.
    Difference between ilvl 200 conduit and 226 one is hilariously small, you can sim it too.

    I remember when I upgraded my top conduit from ilvl 213 to 226 I gained 9 DPS - nice meme.

  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by Caerrona View Post
    That is literally the fucking point.... people complain about gear... when its not. This is a discussion about gear.

    Simcraft does a perfectly fine job when comparing A to B. Not A + b and c to X + y and z.

    The point was preach said gear makes you multiple times stronger. It's not "just" gear. Different encounters, rng, skill all play a factor. So the kids crying about gear are just bad.
    Interesting.......Who is getting mad now?
    People on this thread only get pissed at you when you don't agree with them...FACT

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    Remove conduits, put in actual cosmetic rewards for Torghast, reduce ilvl rewards for M+, and give us real valor points for raids. That's it. That's all you gotta do, Ion.

    His comment about borrowed power so far is the only step in the right direction here. How they choose to move away from it and what they'll replace it with is a careful step they'll have to make, however.
    I mostly do M+ but im ok with this. I always felt in wow that raiding and high cr arena were meant to be the toughest challenges in the game and as such, have the best rewards available.

  14. #334
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    I remember when I upgraded my top conduit from ilvl 213 to 226 I gained 9 DPS - nice meme.
    #Metoo xD

    Just when we started getting stygia I was wondering if I should upgrade my conduits before getting sockets. I quickly realized that ilvl on conduits means almost nothing.

  15. #335
    I would agree doing PVE content a 20% difference is not as gigantic but in PVP its like running into a wall. At equal skill levels that 20 ilevels means not only do you they do 20% more damage to you but are also 20% more durable and probably a third more HP. If you go in as a 2v2 against two people with that level of gap you basically are a punching bag. They almost have a third person worth of power against you.

    Its really fun when you are a wind walker with 203 ilevel and around 36000 hp and you come up against an assassin rogue with 50k+hp. Burst is key in arenas and that level of extra durability means what burst you can apply is that much less powerful. My team basically gave up because we kept getting stuck against people like that to the point it just was not fun being punching bags until the rare fight where somebody has comparable gear levels.

    We started playing PVP again with our mythic dungeon characters and it was night and day easier to increase our rated value.

  16. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avelphina View Post
    Absolutely nothing about new customization for Allied Races what is this lmao
    They've already said a few times there are no plans for more customization for Shadowlands. Maybe in a future expansion, probably years down the road.

    Players really like customization, transmog, etc. but it isn't really a metric they can display to shareholders at quarterlies so they don't seem terribly concerned with it. I wouldn't hold your breath.

  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by Oneirophobia View Post
    They've already said a few times there are no plans for more customization for Shadowlands. Maybe in a future expansion, probably years down the road.

    Players really like customization, transmog, etc. but it isn't really a metric they can display to shareholders at quarterlies so they don't seem terribly concerned with it. I wouldn't hold your breath.
    Also when they are having issues just getting the content pipeline flowing for needed stuff in this weird time extraneous stuff just is not going to make the cut over the meat and bone stuff they need to add.

  18. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    People have literally posted sims showing same exact gear, scaled 20 ilvls higher, is ~20% more dmg.

    Then ppl try to counter it by comparing normal logs to mythic raiders? Or even logs from first week when ppl were learning, to now when its on farm? The dude stuck in normal is there for a reason. The guy in mythic is much better. That's the skill. The guy clearing the boss on farm has much more experience and is executing his rotation with more skill compared to the first time he downed it. The fights are also shorter because of the entire raid doing more dps, leading to higher uptime on bloodlust.

    If ppl spent as much time learning rotations and fights, as they do coming up with excuses, they'd be doing more dmg
    The funny thing is people dont realize that the difference between normal raiders and mythic raiders isnt raw numbers but mechanics.

    I'm not a mythic raider, but I'll use myself for example:

    In order for my raid group to down heroic sire, compared to normal, I had to learn the following to maximize my dps as an affliction lock:

    Phase 1:

    when to use SoC and spread it, using Soul Rot and PS to cleave down adds way faster.

    When to pop soulshape right before phase transition to make sure dots were rolling into phase two.

    Phase 2:

    How to orb walk my instant cast dots around their timers for add deaths and the knock backs

    How to maximize MR damage on all the adds after going through portals for a cleaner transition into phase 3

    ---

    Seeing the lack of mechanics in higher keys (I just got ksm, lol) is pretty telling too when not with my usual key froup. You just cant brute force that shit without draining your healers mana.
    Just because I advocate your ability to play and enjoy WoW Classic doesn't mean I think it'll be successful.

    "Being racist is not wrong. It is a lifestyle that you don't approve of. Being racist isn't even illegal, and it never will be." ~Jonnusthegreat

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaelia View Post
    I really want to empathize with this man but he makes it so hard. Give the players what they want for gods sake
    Players dont know what they want and often want things that make them not wanting to play the game.

  20. #340
    "Why do casuals need gear?" has always struck me as such a nonsensical, even moronic question.

    They don't, obviously, but that's just a strawman you stack up so you can knock it down and feel triumphant. Here's the big secret/bitter pill: neither do you. For all but the absolute top 1%/upper crust players (the majority of you NOT existing in this subset, sorry), someone somewhere has completed the content you're currently doing with worse gear than you have. It inescapably follows, then, that you don't actually need gear either. And yet, somehow, by the simple virtue of being a Mythic Plusser or a Raider, you believe that you have earned the sole right to pursue better gear. You don't need it. You WANT better gear to make what you WANT to do easier. It's exactly the same with casuals, and I don't know why this plain and basic truth somehow so cleanly and completely escapes the deep minds on this forum.

    So then the real question being asked isn't actually about need at all. The real unspoken question is "why do you, a filthy earthcrawler casual, think you deserve better gear?". The question itself has absolutely nothing to do with merit, it has to do with hatred. It's a resentment of casuals; a treatment of them as second-class citizens. Noncasuals somehow simultaneously want to feel superior to casuals whilst also insisting that casuals become more like them (mimicry of their choices serving as validation of their choices). Noncasuals become infected by a lack of imagination - to say nothing of compassion (the patient zero in this case being the developers). Noncasuals cannot imagine a system that is inclusive - that somehow allows all playstyles to continue progressing, even if it comes at different speeds. They can't even imagine a functional, beneficial system where people who tackle easier content have their time rewarded more slowly instead of NOT AT ALL.

    I think it's 100% fine for casuals to slowly progress along alternate paths. There's no reason Valor couldn't have been more inclusive, instead of the wretched mess dumped at our doorstep. There's no reason the Vault couldn't have been more inclusive either, including once-a-week rewards for other types of activities. If it takes a casual ten times as long to upgrade, okay, so what? That won't affect anyone else in the slightest. Ever. At all. The only time you'll ever encounter most of these casual players is if you go slumming in LFR, and why would you ever do that given the fact so many of you despise LFR's very existence?

    Some of the people in this thread make me imagine a wild-haired man with his face and palms absolutely plastered against a window, screeching incoherently because he's noticing birds finding seeds outside. The birds have nothing to do with you, man. It doesn't actually matter if they find a scrap here and there. Except in this analogy, the birds are helping pay the man's mortgage and help keep him in the house.

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