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  1. #301
    Mechagnome Nak88's Avatar
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    Ion giving people more reasons to stick to TBC instead of playing 9.1.

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by Caerrona View Post
    Do you the exact same gear, exactly the same named gear with same cov and soulbinds and conduits?

    Im going to go with that hunter is much better than you and has the proper gear and kit set than you do. Which falls into "skill issue".
    Sure, just assume that I did everything wrong in the analysis. I went out of my to make a sim for this post, I think there is a small chance that I checked this obvious stuff

  3. #303
    what people on this forum doesnt realize about "gear" vs "skills" is that Preach is worried about power creep. And its in the first tier of Shadowlands. The difference in dmg between 226 compared to 200 for instance is too much. This leads to 200 ilvl geared chars being left in the dust. And thus leads to more toxic community perception on gear.

    Watcher on the other hand says its not about gear, theres no power creep. It is all about skills. Those with extra gear deals more dmg because they have better understanding of the spec they are playing, and gear is not that important. And the high numbers is a result from they press the right buttons in the right order. So the numbers are natural and not inflated via ilvls.

  4. #304
    retuning specs and covenants so players have to swap and lose all their covenant progress.

    great system blizz.

    I made my meaningfull choice, i picked the best covenant for raidprogression, now my choice has become meaningless.
    None of us really changes over time. We only become more fully what we are.

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    The thing is, that is not true. My hunter with 217 ilvl sims for 5040, a 225 hunter from rio, sims for 5900. That is 17% for 8 ilvl, more than double the amount of what Ion said.
    It does not work by picking up up some random hunter from rio.
    You have to take your hunter, upscale same items to 225ilvl, same fight length, same consumables and raid buffs, same sockets and same conduits and same conduit ilvl.

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    It does not work by picking up up some random hunter from rio.
    You have to take your hunter, upscale same items to 225ilvl, same fight length, same consumables and raid buffs, same sockets and same conduits and same conduit ilvl.
    Yeah, cuz that's exactly how the actual game works. You just have a lower level ilvl of your bis gear at all times.
    Totes.

    ANYWHO, back in reality, doesn't Ion kinda look like the bad guy in pretty much any 90s show ever? I can see a lot of the Animorphs Visser 3.

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Low point.

    This xpac literally has more players than the last 4xpacs.

    My guid has gotten 200 new members in the last month. Returning players.
    So your guild is one of those invite spamming guilds? I'd like to see some proof that this xpac has more players than the last 4. I'm not talking about at launch, remember WOD broke a record for that too, I'm talking about right now, because I've never seen people quit as fast as they have for SL.
    AchaeaKoralin - Are you still out there? | Classic Priest

  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by kiramon View Post
    Yeah, cuz that's exactly how the actual game works. You just have a lower level ilvl of your bis gear at all times.
    Totes.

    ANYWHO, back in reality, doesn't Ion kinda look like the bad guy in pretty much any 90s show ever? I can see a lot of the Animorphs Visser 3.
    So again, the question is wrong from Preach then.
    It should have been more like "Do you feel that the gap between power of BiS gear and gear with bad secondary stats is too big?"
    Question was about power gained per item level. You can't compare something like Quantum Device 226 for boomkins against boomkin with a trinket from Council Normal if you put it in extreme and you can't compare frost mage with 226ilvl boots crit/haste vs 200ilvl boots mastery/vers and then say well, 226ilvl is 50% better, not 26%.
    Question could have been more like "Do you feel secondary stats should be closer than it is now?"

  9. #309
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiramon View Post
    Yeah, cuz that's exactly how the actual game works. You just have a lower level ilvl of your bis gear at all times.
    Totes.

    ANYWHO, back in reality, doesn't Ion kinda look like the bad guy in pretty much any 90s show ever? I can see a lot of the Animorphs Visser 3.
    Knowing what to put in your gear slots is part of the skill.

  10. #310
    Tons of suggestions but Blizzard to stubborn to listen to us.

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Knowing what to put in your gear slots is part of the skill.
    Yeah, cuz thats exactly how this game works these days - it is all about choice, not feast or famine. Righttt. As if everyone else in the world is choosing to wear a 197 piece of gear with 44 vers over haste or some crap and you are just soO much smarter that you and only you know better. Lmao.

    Using your brain is part of skill, too.


    Oh, and using raidbots is not skill. The fudge.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    So again, the question is wrong from Preach then.
    It should have been more like "Do you feel that the gap between power of BiS gear and gear with bad secondary stats is too big?"
    Question was about power gained per item level. You can't compare something like Quantum Device 226 for boomkins against boomkin with a trinket from Council Normal if you put it in extreme and you can't compare frost mage with 226ilvl boots crit/haste vs 200ilvl boots mastery/vers and then say well, 226ilvl is 50% better, not 26%.
    Question could have been more like "Do you feel secondary stats should be closer than it is now?"
    Im not disagreeing with this - i think the perception is often that ilvl is bigger than it is, as we discovered earlier in this thread, primarily because the secondary stats on the 200 gear (since a ton of people skipped normal nath) from covs/pvp is far worse in pve than the nath gear.
    Last edited by kiramon; 2021-04-28 at 12:16 PM.

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    If the large part off the player base refuses to do such easy content then they will refuse to do the other content. Casuals actually play the game. WQers dont. If given options outside of group gameplay, this will make it that grouped play will be harder to do. It will be the actual death of grouped gameplay. So no. Those liars that call themselves casuals who don't actually play the game deserve nothing.
    Fundamentally this seems to be a really bad take. If it meant the death of group play than it would in fact be dead right now already because these things already exist if you are high end (more like medium end and above) and as far as I can tell most of this section of the playerbase is still functioning pretty much as usual. So these types of systems are not a end to group play at all because proof is there for all to see. Where these systems exist group play is still happening.

    Now I will agree that we do have a very loud minority of casual players that are exactly what you say. They do nothing, complain, and want pretty much everything for nothing. I will go along with saying fuck them. But as you say if these people won't do it anyway then making a system that requires some work for worthy reward will not really help them or shut them up but who cares about them. Make a system where it does take time, effort, and dedication to eventually get to somewhere like 220ish that isn't 100% built around RNG box at the start of the week. I mean take a look at the valor system. If you did nothing but keys in the 1-5 range imagine how much valor it would take to get all pieces to 220. Probably 100s of keys played. You are getting like 187-197 gear and having to go though like 7 stages of upgrades of which some are like 400-480 a step. Like like 3-4 keys a step that is 7 times for ONE piece of gear that you still need to beat the RNG on to even drop to upgrade. Man, that is a SHIT TON of effort they would be putting in to eventually still be 6-10% below players that are doing tippy top content that got their 2 months ago and that ignores the skill gap completely so it's probably more like 20-30% stronger. So with something like this the casuals that DO SOMETHING have a way to get there even though the road is long and terrible. But a road is there. The ones that do nothing will still be sitting around crying and complaining but they have been doing that for like 20 years now. All it would really take is lifting the KSM requirement for valor.

    I know the automatic reply will be "now that is what everyone will do" and on the surface you might be right. But anyone that has better options won't because it sucks ass to do it this way. Anyone that refuses to do anything still won't do it. Only those that want to put in insane work and dedication to slowly grind to that point will really get anything for it and that sounds like a worthy thing to strive for.
    Last edited by Low Hanging Fruit; 2021-04-28 at 12:03 PM.

  13. #313
    so they have finally agreed they have been leading the game in the wrong direction since cata...... Maybe Classic has made them see a better game.......
    Nice now we need to see the fixes ingame...

  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rustykeyboard View Post
    what people on this forum doesnt realize about "gear" vs "skills" is that Preach is worried about power creep. And its in the first tier of Shadowlands. The difference in dmg between 226 compared to 200 for instance is too much. This leads to 200 ilvl geared chars being left in the dust. And thus leads to more toxic community perception on gear.

    Watcher on the other hand says its not about gear, theres no power creep. It is all about skills. Those with extra gear deals more dmg because they have better understanding of the spec they are playing, and gear is not that important. And the high numbers is a result from they press the right buttons in the right order. So the numbers are natural and not inflated via ilvls.
    Ion also pointed out that they decreased the gap between difficulties, from 15 to 13. It doesn't seem like much, but it's 6ilvl per tier, so that'd be 18-24ilvl across expansion (more like 24-30 if we include initial gearing from 5 mans). It's not a massive difference, but it will lower the power creep a bit. Also, there's the removal of Titanforging, which would let items get an extra +10 ilvls over mythic quality, so that's another bit of inflation gone.

    The actual level of power creep depends on secondary powers they'll add in future patches. Extra rows in soulbinds, conduit ranks, (whatever mawtouched is supposed to be). Still, I doubt we'll see anything as crazy as corruption stacking, which was absurdly overpowered. We might see a big spike once they allow second legendary, but that won't happen for a while (if at all).

    All in all - we're nowhere near what Preach claimed, where geared players are doing "several times the damage" of undergeared ones. The only time such discrepancy happens is during mass AOE, and it's more about some classes having uncapped AOE/massive burst damage. That's another issue entirely, one that doesn't have much to do with gear.

    Also - I assume that when Ion says "skill", he means more than just "clicking proper buttons". It's also preparation - having BiS talents, legendaries, soulbind, consumables, all buffs, taking advantage of burst windows. These things are far more important than merely having stronger gear. And Preach knows this - he recently made a video where he pointed out how some random player wasted multiple global cooldowns on something as easy as Shriekwing (heroic?). The harder the boss, the easier it is to mess up and watch your damage plummet.

  15. #315
    interesting takes. But, after having read through ur post most of it is false, or strawmen arguments & making stuff up.

  16. #316
    People have literally posted sims showing same exact gear, scaled 20 ilvls higher, is ~20% more dmg.

    Then ppl try to counter it by comparing normal logs to mythic raiders? Or even logs from first week when ppl were learning, to now when its on farm? The dude stuck in normal is there for a reason. The guy in mythic is much better. That's the skill. The guy clearing the boss on farm has much more experience and is executing his rotation with more skill compared to the first time he downed it. The fights are also shorter because of the entire raid doing more dps, leading to higher uptime on bloodlust.

    If ppl spent as much time learning rotations and fights, as they do coming up with excuses, they'd be doing more dmg

  17. #317
    Herald of the Titans Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    M+ absolutely does bring a lot more to the table, but like I stated above, it also dampens raid progression.
    Alternatively it can also help raid progression. The gearing from M+ also (generally) boosts players gear progression which in turn provides more throughput against tougher raid encounters (i.e. Gear check bosses).

    It is a difficult balance and I think the elimination of raid tier sets dampening raid loot more. In SoD, there's at least 2 hunter specific items that would drive some hunters to want to farm the raid for. More items like those should be in raids to drive raiding interest over M+ interest. Instead of removing or nerfing M+ loot drops (which are already lower compared to previous xpac's M+)
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  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Yeah.. no. You are 100% wrong. SL is the most casual friendly the game has ever been. Vanilla was more sweaty than SL. If you think SL caters to the top players, frankly your just wrong.
    Kaplan has forgotten more about making great games than ion is capable of ever learning even if he lived to be 1000 years old.

    Dude has devolved WoW from an mmorpg to an mmo arpg. It has more in common with Diablo 3 than everquest, and that’s a problem

  19. #319

    Wrath says hello

    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    Professions haven't been relevant since TBC
    I enjoyed my extra sockets and bigger gems in Wrath. They helped me gain agility and hit armor pen cap throughout the expansion.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    It does not work by picking up up some random hunter from rio.
    You have to take your hunter, upscale same items to 225ilvl, same fight length, same consumables and raid buffs, same sockets and same conduits and same conduit ilvl.
    And same group, because kill times matter.

  20. #320
    Herald of the Titans Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorshen View Post
    Valor system needs adjustments.
    Elaborate more? What kind of adjustments? Also note that valor currently was added mid-Season 1. So it would look different in Season 2 with a fresh season.
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