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  1. #121
    I am Murloc! gaymer77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    (Oh and by my count, we lost 2 kings...so makes us even on that part)
    Um what 2 kings have died in game? I only know of ONE and he died an extremely heroic death in the same fight where the Horde lost their leader to some unnamed rando demon's poison when Trolls are supposed to be immune to poisons or some shit. If you're implying that Anduin is one of the "lost kings" he's not dead and will return to the Alliance at the end of this expansion almost guaranteed while the Horde will more than likely lose yet ANOTHER major lore figure (and former Warchief and former leader of the Forsaken)

    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    They literally made a new road for horde players not to get lost.
    Exactly what road are you talking about that was added to the Horde for players not to get lost? Been playing from vanilla and the only changes to the layout of the map for Horde was to bring the starting cave closer because it was further away than the Alliance's starting cave.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    They listened to horde requests for allied race with the vulpera when it was clear that the plan was the nazjatar goblins and alliance requests got ignored.
    Care to share where you got this information especially since the Vulpera were introduced to the game with the launch of BFA while the goblins weren't introduced into one of the last patches.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    Horde racials were OP for many years resulting in the current end-game population unbalance. Alliance ones not allowed to be that OP.
    Alliance racials were the OP ones in both PvE and PvP for a very long time. Namely the human racials starting with vanilla and continuing even to this day but was made even stronger when Every Man For Himself first was introduced. Night Elf racials are another OP one as it gives them a way of dropping combat and making their enemy drop targeting them which is OP as fuck in PvP. There's a reason why every player in the MDI crap is Alliance. Its because the racials are the best in PvE contrary to what YOU happen to believe. Even if the players are normally Horde when they play in game, they are Alliance when they are in the tournaments.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by NordWitcher View Post
    So I've been Alliance all my time on WoW and even that kinda just happened by chance. It was cause I couldn't afford the WoW Battlechest back in the day and you had to have TBC to play as the Blood Elves. So I had to settle for the Night Elves cause I really wanted to play as an Elf. However, I've only really seen the game from The Alliance point of view. That was until the allied races and I created a Horde Demon Hunter to level up and unlock the allied races.

    Now a lot of folks often spoke about them preferring the Horde story lines but BFA was just so much better on the Alliance. Drustvar was an amazing questing experience. I loved the zone and Boralus was a beautiful city compared to the Pyramid thing the Horde got. I did some of the old zones like Dragonblight on the Horde and The Alliance was just so much better. The Wrathgate story line for example on the Alliance is definitely a lot better than the Horde side.

    Am just wondering what parts or story lines or quests were better on the Horde compared to the Alliance? And does Blizzard really have a Horde bias?
    You picked the most unfortunate example here. BfA was the prime example for horde vias in literally every aspect of the game.
    Yes, Drustvar was an awesome zone and Boralus was a cool Hub, but every Horde zone was as good as Drustvar and Dazar'Alor is so much cooler than Boralus its not even close.Only BS was that you had to fly around between the harbor and the pyramide. That was real bullshit.

    Besides that, Horde literally wins every aspect of the expansion. Hell, they even had to roll back and give alliance the exclusive bee mount, because the backlash got so big in regards of minor things like cosmetical rewards.
    Don't get me started on the warfront debacle or the story lines...

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Thundering View Post
    But not for free......
    I wasn't playing back when that Event was going. So i never got the Horde Chopper and can never get it but i could buy the Alliance Chopper perfectly fine a year later. I'd see that as an advantage. Who cares about gold?
    Both are ugly though.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    What's the matter...weren't brave enough to say this on main? Because you and I know this is a totally BS lie

    Progression raiding guilds didn't all move to Horde so they could do lower DPS
    Are you okay Bro?
    Progression Raiding Guilds went to Horde because it was always the better progress faction if you wanted to raid "hardcore/semi-hardcore"
    MDI was full of Alliance since Shadowmeld and Dwarfen Passive offer the best utility for that content ever since they nerfed Arcane Torrent.
    DPS Wise Alliance and Horde are pretty tied up but a lot of classes favour more alliance races than horde
    Just look at Mechagnome and how good they are for almost all classes while also offering a cheat death.

    But in the end racials matter almost nothing for raiding anyway

  5. #125
    Immortal FuxieDK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NordWitcher View Post
    And does Blizzard really have a Horde bias?
    Blizzard have always, and will probably always have in the future, a major hard-on for Alliance.
    Alliance have been hugely favored since WC1, and still is to this day.
    Fact (because I say so): TBC > Cata > Legion > ShaLa > MoP > DF > BfA > WoD = WotLK

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  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    I wasn't playing back when that Event was going. So i never got the Horde Chopper and can never get it but i could buy the Alliance Chopper perfectly fine a year later. I'd see that as an advantage. Who cares about gold?
    Both are ugly though.
    yeah hence its not worth spending anything on it, that why the horde one was better since its 1 free mount counting to your achievements, while the Alliance needs to waste their gold on it and gold is gametime....

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    You picked the most unfortunate example here. BfA was the prime example for horde vias in literally every aspect of the game.
    Yes, Drustvar was an awesome zone and Boralus was a cool Hub, but every Horde zone was as good as Drustvar and Dazar'Alor is so much cooler than Boralus its not even close.Only BS was that you had to fly around between the harbor and the pyramide. That was real bullshit.

    Besides that, Horde literally wins every aspect of the expansion. Hell, they even had to roll back and give alliance the exclusive bee mount, because the backlash got so big in regards of minor things like cosmetical rewards.
    Don't get me started on the warfront debacle or the story lines...
    This is purely subjective and actually against the common consensus. Almost everyone agreed Boralus is way better of a city than Dazar Alor, and that horde zones were pretty much same-old bland stuff, while Kul Tiras had some innovative and fresh ideas.
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  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    A lot of "Blizzard has X faction bias" posts would go away if people learned to abide by the old adage, "Never attribute to malice that which can be reasonably explained by incompetence."
    That assumes that they are mutually exclusive.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by gaymer77 View Post
    There's a reason why every player in the MDI crap is Alliance. Its because the racials are the best in PvE contrary to what YOU happen to believe.
    For that specific type of content they are. Perhaps for normal M+ they are. Otherwise, they are not. In particular, the Night Elf racial Shadowmeld is of very low value in raids (i.e. effectively none).

  9. #129
    Jolly Ranchers are the best IMO!

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    That assumes that they are mutually exclusive.
    A third factor apart from malice and incompetence could be that Blizzard would favour the Horde because that is best for business.
    Or one could say that such a thread will attract mainly fans of the Alliance that are biased by nature.
    A similar thread would attract fans of the Horde that also would be biased by nature.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by LarryFromHumanResources View Post
    SoO was a Horde story about a Horde civil war that the Alliance got to tag along for.

    We can gab on about victory until we're out of breath but I'd take a sacking of Stormwind if it meant I got some decent storytelling.
    That's the thing. When it comes to story it's about spotlight time. The burning of Teldrassil could have been about the Alliance, rather than the Horde, but we saw so much more of the events from the Horde side, and the Horde were clearly the ones with agency there. If all the content had been from the Night Elves' perspective, with the Horde always enemy NPCs attacking, it would've felt like an Alliance story. As it was, seeing some from both sides, and the Horde being the only side with any agency in it all, it was a Horde story.

    Seige of Orgrimmar was the same. It was the story of the Horde warchief going power-mad. And WoD, same thing, with it being a continuation of the MoP storyline, with the addition of new improved versions of the old Horde for us to love or hate. The Alliance got Yrel, who was written in late in the piece, and had no role in the final raid.

    We next 'see' her turning out to be a bad guy. However, even then we don't actually get to meet her, hear her side, see her fall (if that's what she did) or even directly oppose her. So again, it's a Horde story.

    It's all about the point of view and who gets the spotlight time, and there a tendency for the Horde to get them.

  12. #132
    Reading through this thread should show you that 99% of the claims regarding bias are just rooted in subjective opinions.

    Gameplay-wise, the only real Horde bias is that Blizzard has periodically done a poor job of balancing racial abilities. Overtime, this led to many of the top guilds being Horde-based and has definitely caused some problematic population imbalances due to people transferring over to Horde to be part of "the raiding scene." But unless you're aiming for world firsts, no, I wouldn't say that there's any major bias towards one faction or another.

    As far as story goes, that's just a generally subjective crapfest. Everyone seems to want something different from the story, so when something inevitably happens (or doesn't happen) that they don't like, then they become angry and vocal about it. Unfortunately, too many people take that as a sign of bias rather than just disliking the direction of the story. For example, when the Red Wedding happened in GoT, my reaction was "Wow, I hate the Lannisters and the Freys", and not "I'm so sick of George Martin's bias against the North." You're typically not supposed to like everything that happens in stories about war.

    Now that's not to say that I think WoW's story is great or even good. Blizzard's model of fitting the story to the expansion scenario, as well as their tendency to alter the story based on player feedback are, imho, terrible for the overall direction of the story. I'd say those are, among other things, major reasons that the Horde's BfA story ran far too parallel to the their story during the Garrosh era, and not because there was some kind of bias for/against the Horde going on. I just generally get a sense that they either have no idea what they're doing with the story, or that their writers are being forced to put square pegs into round holes.

  13. #133
    Mechagnome Mr. Smith's Avatar
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    In terms of story, it feels like Blizzard has a mindless, evil WC1/WC2 Horde bias, which is different than having a bias towards the WC3/Classic WoW Horde. Like yeah, Horde members/races were featured prominently in MoP/WoD/BfA. Primarily as cannon fodder. And the cost of that was a great deal of Horde characters being written as embarrassingly OoC (Garrosh, the entire Old Horde during WoD, and pretty much everyone during BfA), and/or being gracelessly written off for the sake of pushing the plot forward (Garrosh again, Vol'jin, Saurfang, soon-to-be Sylvanas, etc.).

    There's bias towards the Horde, but it's bias that ends up working against the players that don't like their characters and races getting thrown into a meatgrinder, and Alliance players just asking for more spotlight on them are just asking to get dragged through the mud too. Everyone should be asking for better writing instead, a more balanced viewpoint would be a natural extension of that.

  14. #134
    I am Murloc! gaymer77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    For that specific type of content they are. Perhaps for normal M+ they are. Otherwise, they are not. In particular, the Night Elf racial Shadowmeld is of very low value in raids (i.e. effectively none).
    Except it does have value in a raid setting as a Night Elf priest or druid can shadow meld right before a wipe and res everyone after the fight resets. Not all utility has to be during a fight. Again another reason why they are one of the most picked races in MDI....

  15. #135
    The Lightbringer Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Horde has been made into the evil faction twice and going against their honorable WC3 Horde mantra and then is punished for it and the players have been suffering for it because of the damned writers
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

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  16. #136
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    I would somewhat believe the "Horde bias" antics from certain Ally fans if e.g. Alliance had been villain batted twice in the course of less than 5 years. And not just any kind of villain, but the most idiotic, MUAHAHAHAHA I R EVULZ kind.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by LarryFromHumanResources View Post
    Usually when this subject is brought up players immediately go on to talk about wins or losses but I think that's going about it the wrong way.

    Horde players go "You sacked Orgrimmar during MoP" like it means anything to the Alliance. WE ALL sacked Orgrimmar.

    SoO was a Horde story about a Horde civil war that the Alliance got to tag along for.

    We can gab on about victory until we're out of breath but I'd take a sacking of Stormwind if it meant I got some decent storytelling.
    This is a good post imo - its all about perspective. Is a story line considered "horde bias" if it heavily involves current or previous members of the horde as key villians? Or is that story line an "alliance bias" one as many of the "good guys" are alliance?

    I mean we had YEARS of Green Jesus being the core lore figure, we had the same with Alliance at times. I just dont see any STORY bias, but "boohoo 15 years ago AV was favored more towards X faction" is a whole other discussion imo.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    Horde has been made into the evil faction twice and going against their honorable WC3 Horde mantra and then is punished for it and the players have been suffering for it because of the damned writers
    Honestly, i would find the factions FAR more interesting if one WAS "pure" evil, and one was "good". I loved playing Sith in SWTOR and picking all darkside options - it was awesome! finally getting to play the "bad guys!" but they had to ruin it in the "meta" story by desperately trying to show BOTH sides as "flawed" and using ambition and conquest as "evil" things about the pubs.

    Would anyone be against the Horde being flatout "evil" and the alliance being "good"? if so why?
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    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Honestly, i would find the factions FAR more interesting if one WAS "pure" evil, and one was "good". I loved playing Sith in SWTOR and picking all darkside options - it was awesome! finally getting to play the "bad guys!" but they had to ruin it in the "meta" story by desperately trying to show BOTH sides as "flawed" and using ambition and conquest as "evil" things about the pubs.

    Would anyone be against the Horde being flat-out "evil" and the alliance being "good"? if so why?
    I feel like people ever since before Wrath have wanted playable dark-side factions like Scourge and maybe even the Burning Legion. Hell, people have gone on about recently Light vs Void expansions in recent years so maybe there's a case for that kind of split of factions in the future too.

    I'm one for the faction conflict, as story-wise and mechanically it can create conflict and purpose - things to do, things to be invested in. But, if people are feeling done or fatigued at least temporarily with the Horde vs Alliance conflict, maybe the conflict could turn to Azeroth vs Evil conflict, without having it just be pure PvE, but also be more meaningful in terms of there actually being a bad or evil faction that you can actually join, play as, and quest as to further the goals of those factions - be they Scourge, or Legion, Void, or otherwise.

    I think there is a subsection of the Horde player-base though, like Tauren players, or Orcs who came in liking the nobility of characters like Thrall or even Cata Garrosh where the Orcs were honorable. The Horde was meant to be a faction just struggling to survive - they weren't meant to be evil, you were meant to sympathize with them a little bit because while they were rough on the exterior they had nobility in the heart... where it counts, that sort of deal. If the Horde was suddenly just pure evil, it kind of undermines a lot of what justified the Horde's existence until this point as being a sympathetic party.

    People can also enjoy being an evil side in the story, but with the Horde I think there's different expectations there compared to the Scourge and Legion. For the Scourge and Legion, people expect to have these darker stories where you are the bad guy and doing things rarely if ever honorably - which may make those moments special when they do happen. By contrast, the Horde and Alliance fighting when they both have nobility can be seen as kind of nonsensical when they both have capacity for good. But, largely, if the Scourge or Legion or Void or whatever evil faction it is doesn't really, then the expectation there is different. The culture of the faction would be different. Instead of tenants of nobility and honor, instead tenants of vices and violence would be more upheld. The Old Horde valued things like strength and electing leaders through might, but the modern Horde doesn't really obey this. As, even though Sylvanas had all the power among the Horde - even with her strength to maintain leadership and command, she couldn't hold the mantle of Warchief. But, in the Old Horde, this is exactly how it would have worked before. It's kind of a shame, but in a way Sylvanas being a darker Warchief could have been a direction the Horde could have gone down if only the other cultures of the Horde respected the mantra of strength first. But because the Horde is built on notions of nobility and honor as well, these values create a paradox where not all tribes of races in the Horde value the same things that Orcs might have historically.

    One potential way a faction v faction setup of good vs evil could work is if the raid setups are all neutral threats, that way good and evil decided factions have equal reason to fight the neutral threats. But I think at that point, eventually the mutual aiding of each other just results in another Horde and Alliance situation where eventually it just makes sense for them to work together to stop all these other neutral threats that constantly threaten both sides - even if they didn't have the same worlds or realms or whatever, eventually it becomes an issue especially with power creep of universal threat, potentially. But that's an issue for much later I suppose. Fishes can still get bigger and bigger for a long time before planet busters become galaxy busters and so on.

    As far as good vs evil can go in WoW, there is room for it to work, and certainly evil Horde vs Alliance could even expand to include more factions than just Horde and Alliance, to create more variety of stories so that Horde and Alliance conflict can still potentially be possible without throwing it away potentially forever. That's probably the one thing I don't like the idea of a good Alliance and evil Horde setup, is that those kinds of conflicts end up becoming civil war like, and at that point it becomes more an internal struggle. But, while those conflicts are interesting, they already happen on a racial level within various factions as they are (Grimtotem, Loyalists, Defias, Shadow Council, Pirates, Feltotem, Manari Eredar, Leper Gnomes, Nightmare/Flame/Wardens/Highborne, etc. etc. etc.). New racial conflicts can always be created for the races, or even between the races inwardly, to create internal strife so even if one of those styles gets boring on a racial level eventually other routes can also be taken. And hell, there are even racial conflicts cross Horde and Alliance specifically that remain interesting and compelling that haven't been abolished completely even now and are still being worked through (like the events of the Fourth War).

    I think the faction conflict is ultimately good for the conflict storytelling the game has going forward. And even if the faction conflict evolved to be different sets of factions or changed to be between differing capitals/cultures, there's still a lot of theming conflict to go through that has yet to be resolved. I think if HvA goes away entirely or becomes purely an internal struggle it kind of removes the permanence and tangibility of the struggle in the world -- and without that, it can seem less real when it does get used effectively. For example, if in a future world revamp there wasn't any HvA conflict to me it would seem unrealistic compared to how much bad blood remains between even normal citizens and the other faction. Those hatreds keep getting reinforced by conflicts, and with events like the Fourth War I would personally find it not very believable if everyone unanimously just decided not to fight. It would be a very up-hill battle trying to combat that kind of suspension of disbelief. It works situationally when the stakes are very high, like world-ending threats, but when the stakes are normal and the people have free will to do their own crimes of passion and hatred, I think that's where the illusion of the peace starts to break.

    Especially as more characters carried forward into the future, ones that used to really have a ton of drive in the faction conflict, if all of these characters all have to sit on the sidelines and hold their arms, when the enemy is potentially right in front of them and maybe pushing the limits of peace more and more, those are the kinds of situations where it can start to feel like characters would on a large scale would be being reigned in to do what they're told and that at that level it starts to be unenforceable, no matter how strong a Warchief or High King is as they can't be omnipresent. The closest we probably had to that kind of leader was probably Sylvanas or Varian, who maybe did have the most reach of any previous leader. But at that point, the ruling by fear sets in which sets into motion the kinds of events that can get leaders like that set up for rebellion, or targets for assassination.

  19. #139
    No. Blizzard has Alliance bias. Especially with Golden on the writing team.

  20. #140
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    yeah i mean they fucked alliance capital turned it to weekly raid and their high king to loot piniata, not to mention when horde lost lands in cata to actually balance same number of zones by alliance and horde, the horde child base qq so high that blizz reversed that decision, also horde beat alliance at their capital twice
    oh wait that's alliance who did all that to horde, nvm
    blizz is human biased is more accurate, neither alliance nor horde, alliance exist to support the amazing humans, nelfs are over 15k years old to be highschool cheerleaders for humans, the human male is so alpha that even belfs fall for them
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    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

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