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  1. #21
    yeah, that is their job. If they see a huge group of players engaging in optimal but boring behaviour, they have to set the rules in a way that optimal behaviour is fun again.
    And while fun is subjective, they probably have lots of data on wether people actually enjoy what they are doing or if they are just doing it to be effiecient.

    So while I dislike changing unintended behaviour just because it's unintended, setting new rules to avoid boring but efficient gameplay is always good
    "And all those exclamation marks, you notice? Five?
    A sure sign of someone who wears his underpants on his head."

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Sometimes there need to be restrictions so that your choices have a meaning as well.
    But restrictions don't add meaning to it for me. No matter what I'm going to run the best conduits for the best spec 95% of the time. The choice is very simple and not interesting at all. The restrictions only stop me from playing off specs when I'm not raiding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    For any choice to be meaningful you have to actually make a choice. If you can make a different choice five minutes later it's barely a choice and definitely not meaningful.
    Picking the best conduit and for the best spec and using that at all time is not interesting.

  3. #23
    I'll be honest, I have no idea what conduit energy is or what the big deal is. And I raid mythic and do keys every week.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by owbu View Post
    setting new rules to avoid boring but efficient gameplay is always good
    But then apply it to something which has actual impact on the style of gameplay. Conduits are just passive increases to abilities. Conduit X makes ability Y do 2.5 % more damage. Why make restrictions to something which has no impact on gameplay. It would make more sense for them to restrict spec changing because choosing your spec is an actual impactful choice.

  5. #25
    Its their game so they dictate what they want.

    To me choosing Covenants is a meaningful choice. And with that I mean themeatically and abilities.

    Example: Being a Void Elf Venthyr Arcane Mage feels so right for me, and I feel different than the other mages that are not. To me that choice is meaningful.
    - Everything that lives is designed to end. We are perpetually trapped in a never ending spiral of life and death. Is this a curse? Or some kind of punishment? I often think about the god who blessed us with this cryptic puzzle… and wonder if we’ll ever get the chance to kill him.

  6. #26
    Does anyone actually have problems with this or is this just a generic whine thread?

    There is enough stuff you can complain about and people do complain about it but swapping conduits.... that is a first. It was controversial before we found out, that you don't actually have to change conduits that often.

    Or did you just read "Ian Hazzikostas" and went into rage mode?

    Also: It is their game. If they want to keep players from changing all the time to be optimal they can do that and i am all for it. we don't need to do it if we can but lets face it many people do it then. We swap talents on a per boss level to and we would swap conduits if we had to. But nearly no one has to do that anyway.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantera View Post
    I'll be honest, I have no idea what conduit energy is or what the big deal is. And I raid mythic and do keys every week.
    That's probably because you main one spec.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    Does anyone actually have problems with this or is this just a generic whine thread?
    People who play the game and don't main a single spec have a problem with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Its their game so they dictate what they want.
    Yes they can. But they cannot tell me what is meaningful to me.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Isiolia View Post
    Actually, Blizzard trying to dictate what is meaningful in their game is totally legitimate as it is, you know, their game. And they're the one shaping the rules of this game.
    And shockingly(/s) we're seeing servers as dead as if this was the end of Warlords again because the players are telling Blizzard "this isn't what want".
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    Trust me.

    Zyky is better than you.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaito92 View Post
    Its their game you brainiac obviously they gonna dictate it because they put a focus on what is meaningful for their game in comparison to another game that has a different priority.
    That's not what they are doing though. They are trying to tell me that a certain choice is meaningful even though it holds no meaning to me. Why cant they just let players choose themselves what they find meaningful.

    Imagine if they made a rule that you could only change transmog ones every 6 months because that would make it more meaningful...

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    That's not what they are doing though. They are trying to tell me that a certain choice is meaningful even though it holds no meaning to me. Why cant they just let players choose themselves what they find meaningful.

    Imagine if they made a rule that you could only change transmog ones every 6 months because that would make it more meaningful...
    They cannot please everyone. If they change the rules someone else will get upset again that actually likes it. Yes maybe they should different words then meaningful but the result is the same. They have to draw a line at some point and people will always be upset.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Azerate View Post
    It's perfectly fine for the devs of the game to have some creative vision, which in turn 'dictates' how the players should behave when it turns to actual game features.
    That's not what I'm talking about though. My problem is them universally saying "this is a meaningful choice" because it depends who they a talking to. It's like saying transmog is a meaningful choice. It's true for some people but other people don't give a shit about transmog. So it being a "meaningful choice" depends who you are talking to.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    That's probably because you main one spec.
    If it's some sort of punishment for switching specs, that's something we've had in one form or the other since the inception of the game though? That was an issue way back as far as classic/TBC. The cost would ramp up at a pace where eventually you just wouldn't do it.

    I'm not saying it's a good system (if anything being given freedom to switch how you want should be a good thing) but it's also not a new thing?

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Darynn View Post
    They cannot please everyone. If they change the rules someone else will get upset again that actually likes it. Yes maybe they should different words then meaningful but the result is the same. They have to draw a line at some point and people will always be upset.
    The problem as I see is that the people who like the conduit restrictions are people who have already quit the game or people who wouldn't change their conduits anyway. I cannot imagine anyone running out of conduit energy and then thinking "damn it's cool that I have to wait another week before I can change my spec now!". The conduit energy only adds restrictions to people who play multiple specs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zantera View Post
    but it's also not a new thing?
    No it's not. But they shouldn't add restrictions just for the sake of it. In past expansions restriction have often been a consequence of systems with more depth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    If players would be able to swap conduits - they would do it. And it's just extra unnecessary load.
    Conduits are literally just passive damage increases to abilities. They hold no complexity and you can only choose 1-2 of them at a time. So it would add no extra load. Choosing conduits is much simpler than choosing talents. Restriction on choices should only be made for more complex choices. Conduits don't fall under that category.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    It doesn't matter that MOST didn't.

    ONE person doing that in a 20 person run, slows down 19 other people.

    That's unacceptable, even if it is "optimal."
    I completely agree that it unacceptable if people have to hearth out in the middle of the raid.

    But hearthing out should not even be necessary here. Just like with talents. Conduits are so simple and you're already able to change the path of conduits by using a tome. Why not also being able to change out a conduit by using a tome. Conduits are much simpler than talents so it's a very simple choice.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Yes they can. But they cannot tell me what is meaningful to me.
    Well, no one can put opinions on others.

    What are you trying to say really? They are not saying their design is meaningful to the whole world. If they did that I would roar with you. Its their intent with the game, if you dont think so, thats totally fine don't you think?

    I think Torghast design is boring af. Its not something I do. But still, thats how they want Torghast to be, roguelike, with no real skill involved. I am more relaxed with stuff like that. I am not saying don't be passionate, don't try to change it, but when it comes to the intent with this thread, meaningful do never, ever, mean the same for all. Blizzard isn't saying that.
    - Everything that lives is designed to end. We are perpetually trapped in a never ending spiral of life and death. Is this a curse? Or some kind of punishment? I often think about the god who blessed us with this cryptic puzzle… and wonder if we’ll ever get the chance to kill him.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Well, no one can put opinions on others.

    What are you trying to say really? They are not saying their design is meaningful to the whole world. If they did that I would roar with you. Its their intent with the game, if you dont think so, thats totally fine don't you think?

    I think Torghast design is boring af. Its not something I do. But still, thats how they want Torghast to be, roguelike, with no real skill involved. I am more relaxed with stuff like that. I am not saying don't be passionate, don't try to change it, but when it comes to the intent with this thread, meaningful do never, ever, mean the same for all. Blizzard isn't saying that.
    To me putting restriction on conduits and then calling it "meaningful" would be same as if they only allowed you to change transmog once every year because then it would be more meaningful.

    What I'm trying to say is that Blizzard should provide the players with opportunities and then let the players figure out for themselves what they find meaningful or not. Just let us enjoy the game the way we want to enjoy the game. Within reason of course.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Most people didn't do that.

    Most people don't change talents between bosses.

    And they could just make conduits changeable by a Tome like talents. No Hearthing out.

    Conduits are just passive increases to abilities. They are not complex in anyway and changing them wont slow the raid down anymore than changing talents.
    so if most people don't change talents between bosses, as you say, then why do you think they would suddenly change conduits between bosses?

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    What I'm trying to say is that Blizzard should provide the players with opportunities and then let the players figure out for themselves what they find meaningful or not. Just let us enjoy the game the way we want to enjoy the game. Within reason of course.
    So you want a themepark game to be a sandbox game?

  19. #39
    Conduits are passive talents. They have almost 0 impact on style of gameplay, so there is not really any foundation for a "meaningful choice"


    ^Not true.

  20. #40
    They are the "best" on the market, so whatever they do will be "successful". the decisions are not based on proper evaluation, because being on top by a large margin in this genre means you can get away with huge piles of shit. sunk cost fallacy and stockholm syndrome on the client side are also a very big factor in this particular case. Both sides actions/reactions are compareable to the cycle of addiction.

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