Page 4 of 15 FirstFirst ...
2
3
4
5
6
14
... LastLast
  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    That's because I'm trying to make the point that "meaningful" is a subjective term and depends on who you ask. You cant just say that something is universally meaningful. Is transmog meaningful? It depends who you ask. Would it make transmog more meaningful if you could only change it once every month?
    Right, you cant. So if you choose power, you made a MEANINGFUL choice to prioritise power.

    Let me not just cajole you. I think there are serious issues with multispec classes (particularly druid). I think its a real problem for any hybrid class who just wants to play all of their prospective specs and feel restricted by one spec being very powerful for guardian, and another being awesome for resto. This is the argument to focus on since you literally cant make an actual choice, but a gradation of choice. It discourages playing multiple specs. And in an expansion that seems obsessed about class over spec, it undermines blizzards own stated goals.

    So, genuinely, the 2 week swap should be dramatically reduced. The covenant energy should be dramatically reduced. You should carry over your progression into your new covenant should you choose to respec. But the 'meaningful choice' argument is a meme.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Popokolara View Post
    also cannot understand why people make all these arguments of cyclical nature and do not grasp the final, ultimate and stripped down meaning.
    It's because those people are not impacted by it. It's so easy for people to sit back and say restrictions are good when they don't feel the negative effect from them.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    But I bet it's because you wouldn't change your conduits anyway. It's easy to say that a restriction is good if it doesn't have any impact on you.
    You should not assume anything. Frankly, its just a patethic way of disproving someones opinion. You are better than that.

    I base my basic Covenant choice first and foremost from theme/tmog and Cov. class ability coolness.

    After that? I fiddle with the best setup of Conduits, I swap Soulbinds and their passive abilities as well. I sim, I try, I have fun and do decisions. To me the big Covenant Choice is great, who do you want to join. I do wish they gave us more choices within the Soulbinds. But there will always be a limit, and it needs a limit, and in this case a Covenant limit. Just loosening all up would have a major impact on the meaningful choice. You can stretch it only so far before it gets drowned into Ability Bonanza. It can be fun, sure, but it would be much harder than the balance struggles they have had already.

    Would you want that?
    - Everything that lives is designed to end. We are perpetually trapped in a never ending spiral of life and death. Is this a curse? Or some kind of punishment? I often think about the god who blessed us with this cryptic puzzle… and wonder if we’ll ever get the chance to kill him.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    It's because those people are not impacted by it. It's so easy for people to sit back and say restrictions are good when they don't feel the negative effect from them.
    the problem is they rotate between memorised mantras and never reach the practical application. religious type repetition.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    You should not assume anything. Frankly, its just a patethic way of disproving someones opinion. You are better than that.

    I base my basic Covenant choice first and foremost from theme/tmog and Cov. class ability coolness.

    After that? I fiddle with the best setup of Conduits, I swap Soulbinds and their passive abilities as well. I sim, I try, I have fun and do decisions. To me the big Covenant Choice is great, who do you want to join. I do wish they gave us more choices within the Soulbinds. But there will always be a limit, and it needs a limit, and in this case a Covenant limit. Just loosening all up would have a major impact on the meaningful choice. You can stretch it only so far before it gets drowned into Ability Bonanza. It can be fun, sure, but it would be much harder than the balance struggles they have had already.

    Would you want that?
    I need to remind that a major selling point AND structural pylon of the system was a decent balancing. They based the system on an ability to do that.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    Right, you cant. So if you choose power, you made a MEANINGFUL choice to prioritise power.
    That's not a meaningful choice to me. Because I will always choose power. To me it's like having the choice between getting shot in the head or getting a billion dollars. I don't find meaningful. Whether something is meaningful or not depends on who you ask. Is choosing your transmog a meaningful choice? I depends who you ask.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    That's because I'm trying to make the point that "meaningful" is a subjective term and depends on who you ask. You cant just say that something is universally meaningful. Is transmog meaningful? It depends who you ask. Would it make transmog more meaningful if you could only change it once every month?

    - - - Updated - - -



    No it's because you cannot play off specs.

    Most people who are saying the restrictions are good are not even impacted by those restrictions.

    For example you... if you only play Assa Rogue no matter what then your choice is already made. The restriction have no impact on your choice.
    because i have different priorities and interests, right? But it sounds like you're telling me im not making the 'correct' choice. And if that's your claim, well, you fall into the second line of my argument.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    You should not assume anything. Frankly, its just a patethic way of disproving someones opinion. You are better than that.

    I base my basic Covenant choice first and foremost from theme/tmog and Cov. class ability coolness.

    After that? I fiddle with the best setup of Conduits, I swap Soulbinds and their passive abilities as well. I sim, I try, I have fun and do decisions. To me the big Covenant Choice is great, who do you want to join. I do wish they gave us more choices within the Soulbinds. But there will always be a limit, and it needs a limit, and in this case a Covenant limit. Just loosening all up would have a major impact on the meaningful choice. You can stretch it only so far before it gets drowned into Ability Bonanza. It can be fun, sure, but it would be much harder than the balance struggles they have had already.

    Would you want that?
    I'm talking about the conduits. Not the covenants.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    I'm talking about the conduits. Not the covenants.
    80% of my post was addressing that yes.
    - Everything that lives is designed to end. We are perpetually trapped in a never ending spiral of life and death. Is this a curse? Or some kind of punishment? I often think about the god who blessed us with this cryptic puzzle… and wonder if we’ll ever get the chance to kill him.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    That's not a meaningful choice to me. Because I will always choose power. To me it's like having the choice between getting shot in the head or getting a billion dollars. I don't find meaningful. Whether something is meaningful or not depends on who you ask. Is choosing your transmog a meaningful choice? I depends who you ask.
    To me! To me i chose otherwise because i dont care about the power progression game. You get that right? Its literally the first sentence in your op?

  10. #70
    I implore everyone to move away from the mantra and semantic of meaningful and reach the practicality of reality behind it.
    what does meaningful mean?- Very different things in different contexts! explain it as if talking to a 5 year old. why is it current implementation in relationship with all systems good/bad

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    because i have different priorities and interests, right? But it sounds like you're telling me im not making the 'correct' choice. And if that's your claim, well, you fall into the second line of my argument.
    I'm saying that what is meaningful to you might not be meaningful to me and visa versa. So you cannot universally say that a choice is meaningful. Because it depends who you ask.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    80% of my post was addressing that yes.
    When did you last change conduits?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    To me! To me i chose otherwise because i dont care about the power progression game. You get that right? Its literally the first sentence in your op?
    And that's my whole point from the beginning... that "meaningful" depends on who you ask. I'm not sure how you missed that.

    So you cannot say that the covenant choice is universally meaningful because it depends who you ask.

  12. #72
    Conduits are so out of balance its not funny. Example MM hunter for pve. In potency its either more trueshot up time or wild mark one for night fae.

    Rapid fire conduit sounds fun but procs like once a fight so its not worth it. Extra precise shot dmg sounds good but in dungeons and raids burst is king so its back to either of those cd conduits.
    The conduits offer only one choice. Its either less dmg or more dmg and why would you choose less.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    I'm saying that what is meaningful to you might not be meaningful to me and visa versa. So you cannot universally say that a choice is meaningful. Because it depends who you ask.
    Eugh. Okay. Then you have CHOSEN something i havent. You can see that, right? We chose on different grounds. YOU prioritise power. I prioritise story. We both made a meaningful choice. I completely agree (and literally exist as a living example) to reinforce your first point. So long as this point exists, choice exists.

    If you think i made the wrong choice, and power is the only thing that matters, what are you crying about? *Youve decided* (syn: chosen) power is the only thing that matters. So choose power (since its the only meaningful choice to you)?

    BUT NOT ME!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    And that's my whole point from the beginning... that "meaningful" depends on who you ask. I'm not sure how you missed that.
    Because i understand what "the law of the excluded middle" entails?

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    We both made a meaningful choice.
    No that choice is not meaningful to me. It's meaningful to you. So it depends who you ask. It's not universally meaningful.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    If you think i made the wrong choice, and power is the only thing that matters, what are you crying about? *Youve decided* (syn: chosen) power is the only thing that matters. So choose power?
    I'm just saying that it's not a meaningful choice to me. It's meaningful to some people but it depends who you ask.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Popokolara View Post
    the problem is they rotate between memorised mantras and never reach the practical application. religious type repetition.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I need to remind that a major selling point AND structural pylon of the system was a decent balancing. They based the system on an ability to do that.
    Yes, it was a tough sell. I think they did a mistake of making the combat cov. ability classwide. Which made it a lot harder to balance than if they just made one ability for each specc. Now they gotta balance 2 to 4 specs within three Soulbind trees and a powerful class ability. If they singled out each spec more within the Covenants it would be way easier to tune.

    Maybe it was lazyness, maybe(probably) it was a design issue since they were focusing so much on class again(which I disagree with, spec individuality ftw)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    When did you last change conduits?
    When I last played, sunday. On two characters, hunter and mage. Main? Saturday. I changed again from Emeni to Heirmir and first swapped to the rune conduit(AC, it simmed better on st) then back again to RW conduit.
    Last edited by Doffen; 2021-04-28 at 11:28 AM.
    - Everything that lives is designed to end. We are perpetually trapped in a never ending spiral of life and death. Is this a curse? Or some kind of punishment? I often think about the god who blessed us with this cryptic puzzle… and wonder if we’ll ever get the chance to kill him.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    When I last played, sunday. On two characters, hunter and mage. Main? Saturday. I changed again from Emeni to Heirmir and first swapped to the rune conduit(AC, it simmed better on st) then back again to RW conduit.
    When did you last run out of conduit energy and were actually impacted by the restrictions?

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    No that choice is not meaningful to me. It's meaningful to you. So it depends who you ask. It's not universally meaningful.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I'm just saying that it's not a meaningful choice to me. It's meaningful to some people but it depends who you ask.
    Right, because you have a hierarchy of values with 'power progression' at the top. I swear, im not attacking you. The game design literally tells you over and over again that this is the correct choice. Im genuinely sympathetic. You feel compelled to choose power because this is the way the game doles out its rewards. The game suddenly deciding it wants to reinject 'choice' into a meta narrative where choice simply doesnt exist is incredibly jarring. They want to do it because they realised that perhaps they were creating an arms race against the playerbase (if they have infinite power options, we cant design around this with a static difficulty), and so wanted to reign it in. Or perhaps they just wanted 'to reinject the rpg element into the game'. Either way, its jarring and meme worthy. There is no 'meaningful choice'. There's just restrictions and barriers. And i'd honestly assume its because they cant keep raising the bar in terms of challenge without deliberate limitations to player adaptation.
    Last edited by ippollite; 2021-04-28 at 11:40 AM.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    Right, because you have a hierarchy of values with 'power progression' at the top. I swear, im not attacking you. The game design literally tells you over and over again that this is the correct choice. Im genuinely sympathetic. You feel compelled to choose power because this is the way the game doles out its rewards. The game suddenly deciding it wants to reinject 'choice' into a meta narrative where choice simply doesnt exist is incredibly jarring. They want to do it because they realised that perhaps they were creating an arms race against the playerbase (if they have infinite power options, we cant design around this with a static difficulty), and so wanted to reign it in. Or perhaps they just wanted 'to reinject the rpg element into the game'. Either way, its jarring and meme worthy. There is no 'meaningful choice'. There's just restrictions and barriers. And i'd honestly assume its because they cant keep raising the bar in terms of challenge without restrictions.
    I'm okay with them wanting to reinject rpg elements into the game.

    I'm also okay with making my covenant choice based on power because frankly I don't care about the covenants.

    But I'm not okay with Blizzard trying to tell my choice is meaningful because it's not meaningful to me.

  19. #79
    Swapping everything on the fly makes no choice matter. It'll just be pointless tedium added to the game. Honestly things were better when talents were less easily swapped as well. I feel like they more or less hit the right spot with dual talent spec and respecs still costing a fair bit. Everything since then has made choices less meaningful and added needless tedium.

    If they change this for you OP, the game will not be meaningfully better, its not gonna bring back people or stop people from quitting either. These complaint threads about petty things are pretty meaningless.

  20. #80
    You know... i somewhat agree. They said the same thing about talents in WoD when you had single target, cleave and aoe columns. I loved that stuff. Loved changing depending on the encounter and loved how it varied the playstyle.

    That is the same thing here. I understand wanting talents and soulbonds/conduits to be commiting choices, i just don't think it's the most fun. Sure, quality of life, it helps, but fundamentally i agree with you.
    But, it's their game. What they are doing is indeed trying to make your choice matter and make you unique. But, it is fair to point out that perhaps we don't care so much about being unique, but we care more about fun and that their objective is ultimately flawed in an mmorpg where everyone is gonna choose the strongest path rather than just the one they like.
    Probably something for them to ponder. I think their objective is somewhat impossible to attain, unless they decouple it from player power.
    Last edited by Swnem; 2021-04-28 at 11:48 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •