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  1. #101
    Ion is obsessed with exclusive systems that matter for a short term called major patch/expansion. Once we got shit azerite that u got to farm and now we got convenants that we dont have to farm but cant reroll freerly. I dont know which one is more frustrating ><

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by czarek View Post
    Ion is obsessed with exclusive systems that matter for a short term called major patch/expansion. Once we got shit azerite that u got to farm and now we got convenants that we dont have to farm but cant reroll freerly. I dont know which one is more frustrating ><
    My guess is whatever comes next. The player base screamed "I wanna be the snowflake" So now we are cursed to a half decade of terrible systems all desperately trying to make snowflake builds viable.

    This is why I highly support shaming and mocking terrible players making outrageous demands only by ruthlessly mocking them into silence can the tide be steamed.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    No it's not meaningful choice to me because it's not even a choice for me.

    Choosing power for me is not a meaningful choice... it's the only choice.
    It literally is a choice for you. You said it yourself, "It's the only choice" <- Key word choice, it's right there. You have CHOSEN to pursue power above all else, which means as long as you're given 2 options, you'll chose the option which MEANs the most to you, ie the most meaningful choice. In your case, whatever has simmed/guides say is the best.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fascinate View Post
    i find it hard to believe some random raid from BFA would draw in more players than the battleground patch in classic
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    FruitySalad boy, this is a fantastic thread and is really going places. I just want to make sure I'm on page one of what is bound to be a long lasting and productive thread. It's amazing there are no other threads discussing the squish, as I'm confident you would have just posted in them if they did exist.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Stickiler View Post
    you'll chose the option which MEANs the most to you, ie the most meaningful choice.
    That's not what defines a meaningful choice xD

  5. #105
    As Ion stated in the interview, it's a huge inconvenience to be expected to swap for literally everything you fight. Even with being able to swap then and there, you'd still be wasting time doing it constantly until an addon is swapping for you - and at that point, what's the point of talents if not the choice in having builds where you differ play from others of your spec? If we get rid of what is meaningful of talents, then you effectively may as well not have them at all. This would result in so much homogenization people would complain that everyone plays their spec absolutely the same, because of course they would there wouldn't be any talents effectively at that point.

    If you decry for the elimination of convenience for this kind of swapping you're either inadvertently asking for homogenization or a destruction of the entire system. It's fine if you think it'd be a better personal experience, but there is another section of the community who understandably sees things completely the other way and would if anything want more variety and options to customize their play than not having any options at all. On bleeding edge customization seems like a fever dream, and hell even casuals nowadays feel pressured to optimize things like Covenants, but I'd argue people would just complain about lack of gameplay variety if they all played the same. The illusion of choice still has to be there to satisfy the user even if the choice is being made with numbers for them.

  6. #106
    they should have just made it to where each soulbind has a different conduit set up for each spec

    for those of you who dont play multiple specs:
    no matter what blizzard tells you some classes use the same soulbind for different specs
    each spec has different conduits
    swapping out the conduits takes up over half of your conduit energy

    blizzard currently has the solution of "well we have 3 soulbinds" ignoring the fact that they are not equal
    this leads to players feeling punished for wanting to play multiple specs and be optimal in doing so which is something a majority of players dont do or think about and in fact most of the people praising this system probably havent swapped conduits in months and will call those who criticize this system "min maxers taking away our meaningful choice" like a gem slot you looked up the best choice for is so meaningful in the first place

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    As Ion stated in the interview, it's a huge inconvenience to be expected to swap for literally everything you fight. Even with being able to swap then and there, you'd still be wasting time doing it constantly until an addon is swapping for you - and at that point, what's the point of talents if not the choice in having builds where you differ play from others of your spec? If we get rid of what is meaningful of talents, then you effectively may as well not have them at all. This would result in so much homogenization people would complain that everyone plays their spec absolutely the same, because of course they would there wouldn't be any talents effectively at that point.

    If you decry for the elimination of convenience for this kind of swapping you're either inadvertently asking for homogenization or a destruction of the entire system. It's fine if you think it'd be a better personal experience, but there is another section of the community who understandably sees things completely the other way and would if anything want more variety and options to customize their play than not having any options at all. On bleeding edge customization seems like a fever dream, and hell even casuals nowadays feel pressured to optimize things like Covenants, but I'd argue people would just complain about lack of gameplay variety if they all played the same. The illusion of choice still has to be there to satisfy the user even if the choice is being made with numbers for them.
    its more saying "hey dont punish me for wanting to play differently depending on the situation"

    you mention talents...we can swap them with tomes so why not let us do that with the gem sockets that improve one ability...theres sooooo much meaningful choice behind "do i want to do 5% more dps here or not" especially when the inconvenience can be solved by the player saying NO

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    but I'd argue people would just complain about lack of gameplay variety
    But lack of gameplay variety is a problem even now. This is one of the reason why I complain about conduits not being swappable: Because most of them offers no gameplay variety. They are just passive talents that increases an arbitrary ability by x%.

    If Blizzard had only designed conduits to offer gameplay variety (e.g performance vs. forgiveness) then I would be much more accepting of the system. But I cant accept them offering us these lackluster passive talents and then trying to manipulate us into thinking that they give us a meaningful choice.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Different conduits are better for different situations. That's the point.
    And there we have it folks: "given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game"

    Where do you draw the line then? Should we be able to freely switch talents during a M+ dungeon? Or how about gear swapping in M+ so that I can use BOTH a set of ST trinkets and AoE trinkets "depending on the situation"?
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  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    And there we have it folks: "given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game"

    Where do you draw the line then? Should we be able to freely switch talents during a M+ dungeon? Or how about gear swapping in M+ so that I can use BOTH a set of ST trinkets and AoE trinkets "depending on the situation"?
    At least don't draw the line at conduits which are just boring passive talents. If they don't want conduits to be another talent row that people swap between bosses then they should design them as such. Make the conduits offer variety of gameplay instead of just increasing an arbitrary ability by x%.

  10. #110
    I'm only a scrub that is halfway through heroic CN, so take that into consideration in my opinion.
    I honestly find no interest whatsoever in any of these choices. Even if I could swap conduits constantly and without having to go back to my sanctuum, I probably wouldn't even bother other than say, switch to focus on ST burst when we are progging through sludgefist, but for 99% of my experience, I'll just look at the recommended general setup, stick to it, and never look into it again.

    I like talent trees that have a big, flashy, difference in how my spells works, but I couldn't care less about some +x% increases, I personally find no enjoyment in that kind of increase outside of gear and I could make do without the extra systems. A system where conduits progressively allow me to just visually change my spells one at a time to make them look like they are empowered by my covenant's anima would be so much cooler.

  11. #111
    Epic! Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    At least don't draw the line at conduits which are just boring passive talents. If they don't want conduits to be another talent row that people swap between bosses then they should design them as such. Make the conduits offer variety of gameplay instead of just increasing an arbitrary ability by x%.
    That's a difficult sell as well. If we nerf conduits to the point where they aren't relevant then it won't matter which ones you stick in.

    Additionally, even non-combat boosting conduits have a DPS value. Who wouldn't want a faster interrupt CD or a shorter CD on XYZ ability (even if it's a defensive?)
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  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    That's because I'm trying to make the point that "meaningful" is a subjective term and depends on who you ask. You cant just say that something is universally meaningful. Is transmog meaningful? It depends who you ask. Would it make transmog more meaningful if you could only change it once every month?
    Yes, by definition, it would.

    You'd have to consider every time you wanted to transmog, "Do I consider it worth my one-transmog a month? Do I like the new appearance more than the old one? Is there a better piece I could use?" Because if you don't consider those things, you're stuck with an appearance you're unhappy with for a month.

    That is, by definition, more meaningful than knowing you can change it literally seconds later, and thus, thinking fuck all about it.

    The choice is only meaningful if a choice with consequence exists to begin with. With no consequence, there is no choice - It's just a roadblock on the way to optimization. Eventually, you will learn what's optimal and likely gravitate towards that - Because nothing is stopping you, and it's the best way to clear content.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Most people didn't do that.

    Most people don't change talents between bosses.

    And they could just make conduits changeable by a Tome like talents. No Hearthing out.

    Conduits are just passive increases to abilities. They are not complex in anyway and changing them wont slow the raid down anymore than changing talents.
    What?

    Literally every single person did this. Are you crazy?

  14. #114
    Warchief vsb's Avatar
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    Some people (me included) are trying to min-max their characters. If conduits were freely swappable, it means that those people feel forced to optimize their character before every boss. That's already the case with talents. So that would just be more burden in gameplay.

    Right now conduits are optimized for progression bosses. This is good design.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Isiolia View Post
    Actually, Blizzard trying to dictate what is meaningful in their game is totally legitimate as it is, you know, their game. And they're the one shaping the rules of this game.
    Just because they make the game, that doesn't know they automatically know what the players want.

    It's one of the main things I put FFXIV above WoW over (Outside of story and some aspects of content overall). The FFXIV devs listen. The WoW devs DON'T!

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Orwell7 View Post
    Is this peak capitalism?
    When a freakin ENTERTAINMENT company tells you what to enjoy!
    this here is the point you (and a lot of other people) seem not to understand, they dont tell you what to enjoy, they serve you the game as they made it, and if you dont enjoy it you should LEAVE ffs

    wanting them to change the game to your taste is equivalent of going into vegetarian restaurant and demanding steak - its not your choice what they will sell, however its your choice if you want to have it or if you will go elsewhere...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Orwell7 View Post
    It used the be the other way around, when companies served users to get their money.
    was it? as far as i remember it was developers making games the way they decided, and players buying the game or not, thats it, no other options for players... when was this magical time when they changed games according to every whim of every player?
    that actualy got better with developers, blizzard included have feedback and if they see it as a good idea they do change game accordingly (and yes they do, just bcs they didnt change it according to YOUR feedback doesnt mean they ignore feedback)

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Isiolia View Post
    Actually, Blizzard trying to dictate what is meaningful in their game is totally legitimate as it is, you know, their game. And they're the one shaping the rules of this game.
    Its true. Its also true that tons of companies go out of business because they make incredibly bad decisions. Massive companies like Sears go belly up because they refuse to listen to their customers for years. Tons of restaurants go out of business, then there is In and Out burger which hires a large waitstaff and serve a simple, fresh menu and people go nuts for the product. You would think other restaurants would copy In and Out. But, nope.

    In the restaurant business, people want simple menus and fresh ingredients. But tons of restaurants just don't get it.

    In video games, people want social, but Blizzard just doesn't get it. They offer solo. They offer multiplayer. But not social. And WoW is withering away like Sears.
    Last edited by Kokolums; 2021-04-28 at 04:43 PM.
    TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    It's one of the main things I put FFXIV above WoW over (Outside of story and some aspects of content overall). The FFXIV devs listen. The WoW devs DON'T!
    they do, perhaps they dont listen to the feedback YOU AGREE WITH but they do listen...

  19. #119
    Merely a Setback Adam Jensen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orwell7 View Post
    Is this peak capitalism?
    When a freakin ENTERTAINMENT company tells you what to enjoy! It used the be the other way around, when companies served users to get their money.
    And this shows why the gaming industry is gone to the way it is, because designers of games are butthurt children who get offended if someone does not like their products. So they insist until the sales go down and then cry about being misunderstood and "too progressive" or whatever.

    I'll grab my popcorn tho
    Welcome to the Brave New World.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Orwell7 View Post
    because designers of games are butthurt children who get offended if someone does not like their products
    This may well be the most ironic sentence ever uttered on MMOC.

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