Blizzard trying to dictate what is "meaningful".

[azka]

They can do whatever they want with the game true. 100%. It's their game.

But they cannot tell me what is meaningful to me.

OK, Karen. I mean, Kaver.

[Holdodlig]

Is this peak capitalism?
When a freakin ENTERTAINMENT company tells you what to enjoy! It used the be the other way around, when companies served users to get their money.
And this shows why the gaming industry is gone to the way it is, because designers of games are butthurt children who get offended if someone does not like their products. So they insist until the sales go down and then cry about being misunderstood and "too progressive" or whatever.

I'll grab my popcorn tho

You're either highly misguided, or simply butthurt yourself to react like that. Meaningful choices isn't Blizzard saying what you should enjoy in their game. It's a basic set of rules, like any other game has you have to consider because it will have an impact on your gameplay.

Like it or not, this restriction forces you to think which talent to choose wisely because you're in a situation where your week might be impacted by the talent you've chosen.

[Nnyco]

It is their game afterall, infact who are YOU to dictate what is meaningful.

[smityx]

Goes back to the Classic Argument. "You think you do but you really don't"

[msdos]

There could be meaningful choices if the actual choices were fun, but like 90% of them aren't fun.

Fun = Divine toll, Slappy hands, Bonespike boy, abilities from your kit that do damage and have nice animations and sounds

Not fun = random passive increase, random PPM nuke that has no animation or sound (meter padding skill), random unpruned skill that doesn't fit into the kit anymore and isn't useful and does no damage, choosing between stam, main stat, secondary or stam, main stat or secondary, last talent in your talent row that you can never pick because it does 7% less damage or is just flat out bad for 3-4 expansions then the playerbase sweeps that incompetence under the rug, wondering why you're tilted at your lack of fun/choice.

It's very simple to understand.

[Crimson Spears]

There could be meaningful choices if the actual choices were fun, but like 90% of them aren't fun.

Fun = Divine toll, Slappy hands, Bonespike boy, abilities from your kit that do damage and have nice animations and sounds

Not fun = random passive increase, random PPM nuke that has no animation or sound (meter padding skill), random unpruned skill that doesn't fit into the kit anymore and isn't useful and does no damage, choosing between stam, main stat, secondary or stam, main stat or secondary, last talent in your talent row that you can never pick because it does 7% less damage for 3-4 expansions then the playerbase sweeps that incompetence under the rug, wondering why you're tilted at your lack of fun/choice.

It's very simple to understand.

It comes down to damage regardless. I don't get why anyone is trying to larp that it could be something different at this point.

[msdos]

It comes down to damage regardless. I don't get why anyone is trying to larp that it could be something different at this point.

You're right, only the most hardcore min/maxers play WoW. Silly me.

[Tronski]

Actually, Blizzard trying to dictate what is meaningful in their game is totally legitimate as it is, you know, their game. And they're the one shaping the rules of this game.

That added about nothing to the conversation, well done.

You also seem to confuse a game they want to make money selling with the house you live in. They, as opposed to you, has to make rules people like and a game that makes people want to come visit, and WoW isn't bleeding players and Blizzard isn't bleeding key personell, because they are good at that anymore.

You might blindly follow and stay on the sinking shop, but most of us won't and we want them to change their course to stay afloat.

[Volitar]

If you can swap whenever you want, as many times as you want, what's the point in having to make a choice in the first place?

People don't agree that not being able to play your 'offspecs' at the same degree as you 'main spec' is a meaningful choice especially when it came out of nowhere in Legion.


You can argue that there is meaning but I find it very irritating especially when you play different specs for different activities. Now you have to decide which activity you value more instead of being able to participate in all activities how you choose.

[BobAwesome]

My issue with the conduit energy isn't that I want to switch based on the fight, which shouldn't be a problem anyways since we switch talents already. My problem is that the conduits that are best for raid, aren't necessarily best for Mythic+ or PvP. Not being able to switch for that has made me less inclined to partake in that content because I can't bring my best. I don't want to play "viably" I want to play "optimally."

[Aliven]

There's more at play than just math here. For at least some classes, it's not as simple as right or wrong, different Covenants are good at different things. You can't just pick "the best" Covenant in that case, you have to decide what you want to be good at.

Yes you can. Math dont lie.

[Wavebossa]

Most people didn't do that.

Most people don't change talents between bosses.

And they could just make conduits changeable by a Tome like talents. No Hearthing out.

Conduits are just passive increases to abilities. They are not complex in anyway and changing them wont slow the raid down anymore than changing talents.

A good portion of our raid (especially healers) changes conduits and talents for Sun King, after sunking change again again, and then for SLG (moreso talents for atp sac)

Its not every boss, but it does happen for some bosses.

[arkanon]

This is why WoW will NEVER be successful.

The most successful mmo of all time, one of the most successful games of all time, and you make a comment like this? Some people are just so delusional. You may not like the direction the game is heading, clearly the player numbers are nothing compared to a decade ago, but very few games have the staying power of wow, or have lead an industry for so long.

[huth]

Yes you can. Math dont lie.

And math says that you cannot have two Covenants, so when your best Covenants for, say PvP and Raiding are different, you must pick one.

Math doesn't lie. But math doesn't necessarily give the same answer to different questions.

[arkanon]

Yes you can. Math dont lie.

Few quotes for you that you may or may not find interesting:

"Numbers lie not when they are clearly wrong (that is obvious), but when they are subtly incorrect and it is hard to know they are wrong. You can use good judgement and make the right decision based on bad data, which in the end will be a bad decision."

and another one that i think is particularly pertinent here:

"Math can never 'lie', for it is based on certain 'assumptions' (axioms) which are 'true' by definition. But yes, mathematicians can (lie= unintentionally mislead the mathematical community)"

What it boils down to is the data could be misleading to begin with, then people rely on that data to produce guides etc, and then the second fault is when people simply blindly follow it without any understanding or investigation themselves.

Look at it this way - a low skilled player may, and often do perform far better by using a sub optimal spec. Sounds backwards, right? How could someone perform BETTER with a sub optimal spec? Simply put - they lack the ability to perform the more complex or difficult spec to its fullest, or even close. This has been true all the way back to early iterations of wow. Some specs had haste as the clear front runner, but due to subpar computers, and terrible internet connections, combined with poor play, some people really struggled to take advantage of high haste values, and for them, something like crit would produce better results.

[Aliven]

And math says that you cannot have two Covenants, so when your best Covenants for, say PvP and Raiding are different, you must pick one.

Math doesn't lie. But math doesn't necessarily give the same answer to different questions.

There are classes and specs which absolutly have one covenant which is best for PVP, M+ and Raids. There are others who have best starting one, best middle one and best late one - 3 covenants. But the answer is always right or wrong. There is no if.

Class has necro as best for M+, kyrian for PVP and then Faeries (forgot the names) for Raids then this is the answer. If you willingly go with that class as a necro to raid (and you could switch) then im sorry, you are just making wrong decision.

Can you play what you want? Sure. Mostly the choice is in 1-2% difference. But it is. And math is cold, cruel bitch.

[huth]

Look at it this way - a low skilled player may, and often do perform far better by using a sub optimal spec. Sounds backwards, right? How could someone perform BETTER with a sub optimal spec? Simply put - they lack the ability to perform the more complex or difficult spec to its fullest, or even close. This has been true all the way back to early iterations of wow. Some specs had haste as the clear front runner, but due to subpar computers, and terrible internet connections, combined with poor play, some people really struggled to take advantage of high haste values, and for them, something like crit would produce better results.

Or, more simply put, somebody who can't keep up with the rotation may deal better with a mechanically simpler, theoretically inferior one. Especially when you add a challenging encounter that requires a lot of attention on top of that. Dead DDs still do the least damage, and ones that are constantly running around because they don't have the mental capacity to handle both the rotation and encounter mechanics aren't far ahead.

[arkanon]

If you willingly go with that class as a necro to raid (and you could switch) then im sorry, you are just making wrong decision.

This is completely flawed logic - because it makes the assumption that every single player in the entire game is motivated 100% by potential output, and cosmetics, themes, gameplay, enjoyment, RP, or any other potential and very valid motivation is "wrong".

[Crimson Spears]

You're right, only the most hardcore min/maxers play WoW. Silly me.

How did convents work out?

We have the numbers you know your wrong at this point.

[arkanon]

Or, more simply put, somebody who can't keep up with the rotation may deal better with a mechanically simpler, theoretically inferior one. Especially when you add a challenging encounter that requires a lot of attention on top of that. Dead DDs still do the least damage, and ones that are constantly running around because they don't have the mental capacity to handle both the rotation and encounter mechanics aren't far ahead.

Im not entirely sure that is a more simple way to put it, but I do agree 100% with what you are saying. Outside of mythic raiding i played with a "friends and family" guild that has been together since TBC - normal + heroic only, zero mythic. I would encourage the less skilled or experienced players to play a more simple spec, and modify it as they improve - but too often they wouldnt listen. "we watched your stream and that fire mage was doing insane dps!, so I copied his spec!" - sounds fine, doesnt work.