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  1. #1

    Blizzard trying to dictate what is "meaningful".

    Let's just get into it straight away. "Meaningful" content is extremely subjective. For some people transmog is meaningful. For other people gold farming is meaningful. It completely depends on who you are. So the idea that Blizzard can tell us "this is a meaningful choice" is absolutely insane. Because it only holds meaning if it has meaning for the specific person.

    In the latest Preach Interview Ion said two things concerning the Conduit Energy that really annoys me:

    1) "They wanted to avoid another system where you swap to Conduits on every boss."

    Why? Why is it a problem if a few players wants to swap Conduits for every boss? It's a part of class customization. And most players wont do it anyway just like most players don't even change talents between bosses. Why do you have to make these unnecessarily restrictive rules just because a few players are going to swap conduits on every boss. Also, it's not like the conduits have any complexity. It's just another passive talent row.

    2) "They want to avoid situations where people are swapping every day, but every week, that's something they want to accommodate."

    Again, WHY?! Why is it a problem if people swap conduits every day? You cannot dictate this to be a "meaningful choice" just because you want it to be. Most people pick the strongest spec and the strongest conduits for that spec anyway. That's already not meaningful for us. My transmog is a more meaningful choice to me than my conduits. The only thing these restrictions achieve is stopping people from having fun with off specs.

  2. #2
    Actually, Blizzard trying to dictate what is meaningful in their game is totally legitimate as it is, you know, their game. And they're the one shaping the rules of this game.

  3. #3
    If you can swap whenever you want, as many times as you want, what's the point in having to make a choice in the first place?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Isiolia View Post
    Actually, Blizzard trying to dictate what is meaningful in their game is totally legitimate as it is, you know, their game. And they're the one shaping the rules of this game.
    They can do whatever they want with the game true. 100%. It's their game.

    But they cannot tell me what is meaningful to me. They cannot tell me that Pet Battles are meaningful to me for example. It's meaningful for some people. But not to me.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kranur View Post
    If you can swap whenever you want, as many times as you want, what's the point in having to make a choice in the first place?
    Different conduits are better for different situations. That's the point.

    - - - Updated - - -

    It seems like the only people who like conduits energy are people who would never change their conduits anyway or people who don't play the game anymore.

  5. #5
    Conduits are literally like talents at this point, yet still theres conduit energy on the PTR, makes actually 0 sense, but hey, blizz always knows better right, just wait till the "Meaningful Choice" crew comes to this thread to try and explain themselves even tho most of them use the best covenant just cause its the best performance wise xd im sure all the night fae mages choose it cause of the cool fairy theme meaningful choice, the 2021 meme.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    They can do whatever they want with the game true. 100%. It's their game.

    But they cannot tell me what is meaningful to me. They cannot tell me that Pet Battles are meaningful to me for example. It's meaningful for some people. But not to me.
    That's a wording issue. When they say "meaningful", they don't want you to say you have to give a fuck. It's more like "You'll have to think twice what thing to choose because you'll be locked with this for a full week.". Actually, the word they should have used is "careful".


    Quote Originally Posted by kranur View Post
    If you can swap whenever you want, as many times as you want, what's the point in having to make a choice in the first place?
    It's simple. Just don't have the traits on the same line at the same time so people can think about which one is the best.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Isiolia View Post
    That's a wording issue. When they say "meaningful", they don't want you to say you have to give a fuck. It's more like "You'll have to think twice what thing to choose because you'll be locked with this for a full week.". Actually, the word they should have used is "careful".
    But that's the same issue. Because most people don't have to "think twice" when it comes to what conduits they pick. They pick the conduits that are the strongest for the strongest spec. Conduits are passive talents. They have almost 0 impact on style of gameplay, so there is not really any foundation for a "meaningful choice". My transmog is a more complex choice to me than my conduit choices. I just cannot play off specs so instead of having some fun with those in my "off time", I just log off instead when I'm not raiding or doing M+.

    Can I ask you, do you play the game currently? (Just curious)
    Last edited by Kaver; 2021-04-28 at 08:06 AM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    They can do whatever they want with the game true. 100%. It's their game.

    But they cannot tell me what is meaningful to me. They cannot tell me that Pet Battles are meaningful to me for example. It's meaningful for some people. But not to me.
    I agree that conduit energy is too restrictive, but I stand by the main principle that endless customization is not what I expect or want from an MMORPG. If you don't have to make a sacrifice in order to gain something (ie you can always pick the best choice and never have to "settle"), there shouldn't be a choice in the first place. In that case they could've just given us perks that unlock like the Artifact weapons did instead.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Let's just get into it straight away. "Meaningful" content is extremely subjective. For some people transmog is meaningful. For other people gold farming is meaningful. It completely depends on who you are. So the idea that Blizzard can tell us "this is a meaningful choice" is absolutely insane. Because it only holds meaning if it has meaning for the specific person.

    In the latest Preach Interview Ion said two things concerning the Conduit Energy that really annoys me:

    1) "They wanted to avoid another system where you swap to Conduits on every boss."

    Why? Why is it a problem if a few players wants to swap Conduits for every boss? It's a part of class customization. And most players wont do it anyway just like most players don't even change talents between bosses. Why do you have to make these unnecessarily restrictive rules just because a few players are going to swap conduits on every boss. Also, it's not like the conduits have any complexity. It's just another passive talent row.

    2) "They want to avoid situations where people are swapping every day, but every week, that's something they want to accommodate."

    Again, WHY?! Why is it a problem if people swap conduits every day? You cannot dictate this to be a "meaningful choice" just because you want it to be. Most people pick the strongest spec and the strongest conduits for that spec anyway. That's already not meaningful for us. My transmog is a more meaningful choice to me than my conduits. The only thing these restrictions achieve is stopping people from having fun with off specs.
    I agree with thread name, because game is extremely "on a rails" now, i.e. we have just illusion of choice, not real choice. But I don't agree with your arguments. All this restrictions are made, because some players tend to mimic top players. We already have that "Why can't we swap covenants for every spec, because it gives me +0.00000001% of effectiveness and other players reject me, if I don't have it?" whines. Same here. If players would be able to swap conduits - they would do it. And it's just extra unnecessary load.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    They can do whatever they want with the game true. 100%. It's their game.

    But they cannot tell me what is meaningful to me. They cannot tell me that Pet Battles are meaningful to me for example. It's meaningful for some people. But not to me.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Different conduits are better for different situations. That's the point.

    - - - Updated - - -

    It seems like the only people who like conduits energy are people who would never change their conduits anyway or people who don't play the game anymore.

    The heart of this controversy and what SL marketing is built around is an attempt - a very forceful and sometimes deceiving attempt - to break the mentality of using optimal settings, and wether it is something desirable or proper. They want to make us accept a non personal ability related factor affecting performance greatly. So that a worse player is still needed and valued because he can cover a blind spot - that is basically enforced by the opportunity cost present.

    Some people believe skill should be the only differentiating factor.
    Other believe skill as the only factor lacks meaningfull choice. When u cant cover all bases yourself and have a weakness and learn to live with it, often relying on your buddy to help you, and vice versa, that is the true "RPG" experience. So you arent strong on everything, you arent a god.
    Essentially, meaningfull choice is when you accept you will do 30% less output in aoe, because you can do 30% more in single target, and thats that. Fuck wanting only gameplay ability to be the differentiating factor, thats........spoiled somehow?


    My personal view is the way the systems are set up right now are intentionally chore and uncomfortness heavy to force you to dislike optimising for every scenario. its a pretty insidious tactic.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    I agree with thread name, because game is extremely "on a rails" now, i.e. we have just illusion of choice, not real choice. But I don't agree with your arguments. All this restrictions are made, because some players tend to mimic top players. We already have that "Why can't we swap covenants for every spec, because it gives me +0.00000001% of effectiveness and other players reject me, if I don't have it?" whines. Same here. If players would be able to swap conduits - they would do it. And it's just extra unnecessary load.
    Unfortunately that is true and i have close relationships of more casual players who worry about things like that. Imagine if there werent so many chores and clicks to go through. How would things be if the setting up was more straightforward?
    Last edited by Popokolara; 2021-04-28 at 08:16 AM.

  11. #11
    It's perfectly fine for the devs of the game to have some creative vision, which in turn 'dictates' how the players should behave when it turns to actual game features. Any dev of any game tries to direct the player to do certain things in their game. Should they back out of the idea once they see moderate refusal from players to partake? Maybe, I don't know.

    Personally I'd prefer for conduits not to be a thing at all and just get more playable content instead of this additional system that they struggle to balance and put limiters on. Hopefully they learn for the future and cut all those systems a bit in the next expansion / patches maybe
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  12. #12
    Its their game you brainiac obviously they gonna dictate it because they put a focus on what is meaningful for their game in comparison to another game that has a different priority. Cinematic story for example is less meaningful in minecraft
    Did you feel smart typing this out as a smart gotcha or what?

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by kranur View Post
    If you can swap whenever you want, as many times as you want, what's the point in having to make a choice in the first place?

    Why DO we have to make choice in the first place? Its all cool for story stuff, but not for gameplay.

  14. #14
    Then they should stop doing bosses that require cutting edge dps like sludgefist it they want to stop players from changing conduits
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Let's just get into it straight away. "Meaningful" content is extremely subjective. For some people transmog is meaningful. For other people gold farming is meaningful. It completely depends on who you are. So the idea that Blizzard can tell us "this is a meaningful choice" is absolutely insane. Because it only holds meaning if it has meaning for the specific person.

    In the latest Preach Interview Ion said two things concerning the Conduit Energy that really annoys me:

    1) "They wanted to avoid another system where you swap to Conduits on every boss."

    Why? Why is it a problem if a few players wants to swap Conduits for every boss? It's a part of class customization. And most players wont do it anyway just like most players don't even change talents between bosses. Why do you have to make these unnecessarily restrictive rules just because a few players are going to swap conduits on every boss. Also, it's not like the conduits have any complexity. It's just another passive talent row.

    2) "They want to avoid situations where people are swapping every day, but every week, that's something they want to accommodate."

    Again, WHY?! Why is it a problem if people swap conduits every day? You cannot dictate this to be a "meaningful choice" just because you want it to be. Most people pick the strongest spec and the strongest conduits for that spec anyway. That's already not meaningful for us. My transmog is a more meaningful choice to me than my conduits. The only thing these restrictions achieve is stopping people from having fun with off specs.
    it's the same reason they removed reforging. people were getting gear, hearthing out, reforging, and going back in. which slows runs down, which pisses other people off and all for what? a miniscule dps increase which, let's be honest, will have no impact on whether or not the group is successful or fails

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arainie View Post
    I agree that conduit energy is too restrictive, but I stand by the main principle that endless customization is not what I expect or want from an MMORPG. If you don't have to make a sacrifice in order to gain something (ie you can always pick the best choice and never have to "settle"), there shouldn't be a choice in the first place. In that case they could've just given us perks that unlock like the Artifact weapons did instead.
    I have to echo and agree on this.

    Sometimes there need to be restrictions so that your choices have a meaning as well.

    Not really fun if everything runs on one track all the time.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by MrLachyG View Post
    it's the same reason they removed reforging. people were getting gear, hearthing out, reforging, and going back in. which slows runs down, which pisses other people off and all for what? a miniscule dps increase which, let's be honest, will have no impact on whether or not the group is successful or fails
    Most people didn't do that.

    Most people don't change talents between bosses.

    And they could just make conduits changeable by a Tome like talents. No Hearthing out.

    Conduits are just passive increases to abilities. They are not complex in anyway and changing them wont slow the raid down anymore than changing talents.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    Why DO we have to make choice in the first place? Its all cool for story stuff, but not for gameplay.
    Tell me about it. I hate having to choose a name for characters, their class and which spec to play. Why can't I swap all of it on the fly? If my current priest wants to suddenly be dual dagger stabby stabby rogue, why can't she? Mid combat too, preferably. Down with the restrictions!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    True, I was just bored and tired but you are correct.

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  19. #19
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    I don't do it because I'm lazy for one and two because there's actually no fucking benefit whatsoever to it for my spec outside of swapping one over for PVP which I don't do anymore. The only people that this current system disadvantages is people that aren't me and play other specs that may, if it was allowed or simpler, would potentially get more DPS than me somehow. If it makes those people mad, I'm glad for this change as it amuses me at no cost because if it was the other way around, where they could do some tiresome and boring shit to get something and I was the one being put out by NOT doing it, they'd defend the system because it benefits them. Shoe's on the other food and I'm glad for it.
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  20. #20
    For any choice to be meaningful you have to actually make a choice. If you can make a different choice five minutes later it's barely a choice and definitely not meaningful.

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