Blizzard trying to dictate what is "meaningful".

[Crimson Spears]

Because the concept is the same. It's a choice you make that you get locked into and that has impact on your gameplay, cosmetic and story options.

If you can't understand why they are relevant to one another, then you haven't even understood the basics of this discussion.



I could turn your entire post back at you. I answered you. You keep refusing to accept it and make up excuses as to why i owe you something, while only bringing up anecdotes and muddying the waters. If i am transparent, you're barely even visible.

I would point out the errors in your thought process but sadly im not allowed to imply certain things here. An effort to protect the more gifted posters so will leave it as this to show I can be a good boy.

[Eosia]

Why? Why is it a problem if a few players wants to swap Conduits for every boss? It's a part of class customization. And most players wont do it anyway just like most players don't even change talents between bosses. Why do you have to make these unnecessarily restrictive rules just because a few players are going to swap conduits on every boss. Also, it's not like the conduits have any complexity. It's just another passive talent row.

Because without friction, you're just simply adding X amount of new talents. We've been through this before with the change to the talent rows after the trees died.

[huth]

I would point out the errors in your thought process but sadly im not allowed to imply certain things here. An effort to protect the more gifted posters so will leave it as this to show I can be a good boy.

So what you're saying is you can't argue against it without resorting to ad hominems. That doesn't really speak for you. Nor should the "more gifted" posters really need your help.

[Tradu]

Because without friction, you're just simply adding X amount of new talents. We've been through this before with the change to the talent rows after the trees died.

There's nothing wrong with adding X new talents. It only becomes a problem when they add several different sets of new talents (soulbinds + conduits + legendaries + covenants), which is a problem they themselves created. Nobody forces them to add that many different extra talent systems, they choose to do it and then decide that they need to add "friction" in order to differentiate them. They could've just had legendaries + soulbinds, without conduits or covenant restrictions.

[Lolites]

Yeah. But, realistically, you can play the game Blizzard presents...or play something else. That is the only real choice players have.

and thats the only choice players need...
i never understood why some people demand the game to be shaped according to THEIR preference and screw everybody else instead of simply leaving and finding game they like...

video games are combination of art and entertainment, like movies or books, can you imagine bookreaders doing that? writing to author "listen, i dont like your book, you have to change chapters 4 and 11"

[Osmeric]

and thats the only choice players need...
i never understood why some people demand the game to be shaped according to THEIR preference and screw everybody else instead of simply leaving and finding game they like...

How dare they tell Blizzard what they need to keep them subbed, instead of conveniently (for you) disappearing in silence. I mean, the horror, Blizzard might actually LISTEN to them if they say something, and move the game in a direction they want and you don't.

[Stormwolf64]

Yeah. But, realistically, you can play the game Blizzard presents...or play something else. That is the only real choice players have.

Well no. Sometimes developers forget about enjoyment factors and tunnel vision longevity and other stuff. If something doesnt sit right, voice a complaint and they might realize their mistakes. But if not, well tough shit. Never complaining and mindlessly praising is just as hurtful to the game as irrational complaints.

[huth]

and thats the only choice players need...
i never understood why some people demand the game to be shaped according to THEIR preference and screw everybody else instead of simply leaving and finding game they like...

video games are combination of art and entertainment, like movies or books, can you imagine bookreaders doing that? writing to author "listen, i dont like your book, you have to change chapters 4 and 11"

While i agree with your point, i'm rather certain such readers are very much a real thing.

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Well no. Sometimes developers forget about enjoyment factors and tunnel vision longevity and other stuff. If something doesnt sit right, voice a complaint and they might realize their mistakes. But if not, well tough shit. Never complaining and mindlessly praising is just as hurtful to the game as irrational complaints.

Careful that you don't confuse "i don't like this" with "this is objectively unfun".

[Lolites]

How dare they tell Blizzard what they need to keep them subbed, instead of conveniently (for you) disappearing in silence. I mean, the horror, Blizzard might actually LISTEN to them if they say something, and move the game in a direction they want and you don't.

Right, bcs bitching about game and still paying for it will have exactly that effect... and paying for game you seem to despise makes sooooo much sense, its like complaining you dont like food at restaurant and still going there for lunch every day, WHY THE HELL do that?
if you dont like the game then leave, thats literaly only "vote" you got, if you still pay for it they know you wont leave despite your constant whining and they have no reason to listen to your "feedback"...

its literaly like with EVERY service/goods - dont like it? dont buy it, if its not profitable they will make changes... if it is profitable tough luck, buy some substitute service/goods...

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Well no. Sometimes developers forget about enjoyment factors and tunnel vision longevity and other stuff. If something doesnt sit right, voice a complaint and they might realize their mistakes. But if not, well tough shit. Never complaining and mindlessly praising is just as hurtful to the game as irrational complaints.

but complaining and still paying will tell them they DONT HAVE TO change a shit... if you (and many other) leave that will tell them they have to make a change...
i mean sure, if its something minor i get it, but people complain about core things and still play... that shows it doesnt bother them that much...

[Beuargh]

they can dictate what is meanigfull. it's pretty easy actually: put a one week timer on it.

they want you to make a choice, pros and cons. if you can swap and optimize every fight, there is no choice to do anymore: you pick the best for every fight, following the meta you found on the interweb just like you already do, but now for every fights...

and for some time now, it seems blizzard don't want talent/conduit/etc "micromanagement" to make the difference among players. they want players to shine somewhere else.

[Stormwolf64]

While i agree with your point, i'm rather certain such readers are very much a real thing.

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Careful that you don't confuse "i don't like this" with "this is objectively unfun".

Your subjective fun is all you can talk about.

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Right, bcs bitching about game and still paying for it will have exactly that effect... and paying for game you seem to despise makes sooooo much sense, its like complaining you dont like food at restaurant and still going there for lunch every day, WHY THE HELL do that?
if you dont like the game then leave, thats literaly only "vote" you got, if you still pay for it they know you wont leave despite your constant whining and they have no reason to listen to your "feedback"...

its literaly like with EVERY service/goods - dont like it? dont buy it, if its not profitable they will make changes... if it is profitable tough luck, buy some substitute service/goods...

- - - Updated - - -



but complaining and still paying will tell them they DONT HAVE TO change a shit... if you (and many other) leave that will tell them they have to make a change...
i mean sure, if its something minor i get it, but people complain about core things and still play... that shows it doesnt bother them that much...

I agree with you. THing is that if you just unsub without complaining how should they know why you left? Complaints are important and you should never worry about the feelings of the developers. Get it out and be constructive. Doesn't matter if you're the only person on the planet complaining about this issue. You can only care about your entertainment not everyone else. Rest is up to the dev studio.

[rogoth]

If you can swap whenever you want, as many times as you want, what's the point in having to make a choice in the first place?

i love this arguement, for years now there's been systems in place that allow people to pick and choose whatever they like, whenever they like, with no restrictions, it's only the last few years when companies greed has taken over that any and all system is as restrictive as possible and they are needlessly convoluted to the point where most average players just pick what is best in the majority of situations and call it a day and never change ever again, and what once used to be encouraged as player choice and player ingenuity, is now restricted as it shows the developers failings and shows they can't be bothered to do their jobs properly so the system is never used at its full potential.

[Saden]

Let's just get into it straight away. "Meaningful" content is extremely subjective. For some people transmog is meaningful. For other people gold farming is meaningful. It completely depends on who you are. So the idea that Blizzard can tell us "this is a meaningful choice" is absolutely insane. Because it only holds meaning if it has meaning for the specific person.

In the latest Preach Interview Ion said two things concerning the Conduit Energy that really annoys me:

1) "They wanted to avoid another system where you swap to Conduits on every boss."

Why? Why is it a problem if a few players wants to swap Conduits for every boss? It's a part of class customization. And most players wont do it anyway just like most players don't even change talents between bosses. Why do you have to make these unnecessarily restrictive rules just because a few players are going to swap conduits on every boss. Also, it's not like the conduits have any complexity. It's just another passive talent row.

2) "They want to avoid situations where people are swapping every day, but every week, that's something they want to accommodate."

Again, WHY?! Why is it a problem if people swap conduits every day? You cannot dictate this to be a "meaningful choice" just because you want it to be. Most people pick the strongest spec and the strongest conduits for that spec anyway. That's already not meaningful for us. My transmog is a more meaningful choice to me than my conduits. The only thing these restrictions achieve is stopping people from having fun with off specs.

My god. Stop being a Karen.

It’s their game and they can decide where they put there energy in when it comes to ‘meaningful’. Stop crying of this choice of words.

If you don’t like the direction the game is going into, you unsub.

What Ion mentioned about the conduits was just one aspect of the game. They already acknowledged it has no positive impact on other aspects and thinking of solutions. Nobody is fairly happy with the conduit but stop trolling.

[huth]

Your subjective fun is all you can talk about.

Well, that's the point. You should consider your choice of language, though. "Never worry about their feelings" isn't the right approach either, though you shouldn't be concerned about sucking up to them. But there's a wide field of mature, polite feedback inbetween asskissers and karens.

Yelling and screaming at them for "ruining the game" isn't likely to get their attention much, if for no other reason than that they can't really do much about that.

I'd also disagree that you can't care about the entertainment of others. You can choose not to, but if it was fundamentally impossible, game dev would be a dead field.

[Crimson Spears]

i love this arguement, for years now there's been systems in place that allow people to pick and choose whatever they like, whenever they like, with no restrictions, it's only the last few years when companies greed has taken over that any and all system is as restrictive as possible and they are needlessly convoluted to the point where most average players just pick what is best in the majority of situations and call it a day and never change ever again, and what once used to be encouraged as player choice and player ingenuity, is now restricted as it shows the developers failings and shows they can't be bothered to do their jobs properly so the system is never used at its full potential.

More or less this... I honestly thought this line of argument would be dead by now what with 98% plus of the same class/spec all going the same covenant. We have seen how the player base reacts and it doesn't give a shit about choice.

If anything the covenant data suggests a very strong argument that most players would prefer the game without talent trees never mind being given more choice.

[Stormwolf64]

Well, that's the point. You should consider your choice of language, though. "Never worry about their feelings" isn't the right approach either, though you shouldn't be concerned about sucking up to them. But there's a wide field of mature, polite feedback inbetween asskissers and karens.

Yelling and screaming at them for "ruining the game" isn't likely to get their attention much, if for no other reason than that they can't really do much about that.

I'd also disagree that you can't care about the entertainment of others. You can choose not to, but if it was fundamentally impossible, game dev would be a dead field.

Ill just say that you interpreted that line as you wanted. Meaning, the worst possible way. No wonder the bickering here never ceases. Of course you're supposed to be civil when writing up complaints.

[Hctaz]

To be fair, it's not the only stupid thing they took from Classic and decided would be great for the modern game too. Just look at all the quests where the items on the floor aren't unique per player (like they have been since... MoP? Cata maybe?), instead forcing people to wait for respawns for minutes each. They can't accept that the 2 games have different playerbases, different appeals and that things that work in one don't necessarily work in the other.

And without the possibility to ever reach a point (whether that's gear, gold for constant respecs or whatever) where you can freely switch between specs/content.

Yeah I agree. I haven't played much of Shadowlands though so I'm not familiar with the specifics. Most of my critique for the expansion comes from the info behind Covenants and understanding that they were trying to emulate Classic WoW's meaningful choices as made apparent by Ion during some of the livestreams they did pre expansion.

But yes, the thing behind gold as a resource like in Classic is that you can grind more, you can grind less, or you can play the game in a way where you don't require as much. Either way, gold is a widely used resource in Classic, and it's a social resource at that. Players want gold, and players can do things to gain gold from other players. I think that's where retail WoW is missing the point. Like if you're scrapped for cash, you might have a guildy spot you some extra consumables. You can't have a friend help you out with your NPC gifted resource when you had to work overtime and couldn't play as much as you'd have liked.

[huth]

Ill just say that you interpreted that line as you wanted. Meaning, the worst possible way. No wonder the bickering here never ceases. Of course you're supposed to be civil when writing up complaints.

You have to keep the general tone on these forums and the official ones in mind when you write about that. If you tell them not to worry about the dev's feelings, they'll take that as a free pass to throw in an extra gallon of vitriol.

[Eosia]

There's nothing wrong with adding X new talents.

It does when it is X talents every expansion and people want to keep them every time. The system also helps Blizzard determine which ones to carry over potentially.

[Stormwolf64]

You have to keep the general tone on these forums and the official ones in mind when you write about that. If you tell them not to worry about the dev's feelings, they'll take that as a free pass to throw in an extra gallon of vitriol.

Not my responsibility raising the people on this forum