Page 19 of 28 FirstFirst ...
9
17
18
19
20
21
... LastLast
  1. #361
    The Insane Daemos daemonium's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Land of moose and goose.
    Posts
    16,951
    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    Idk about you but this not read as particularly concrete information.
    Ah I admit I forgot that further extract was in chronicles. So Mabye it was made by Azeroth then.

  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Old Gods already had a similar moment when we learned that they were mountain-sized cancers flung at random by dudes that are functionally the same but outside reality so as to allow further expansions. The Light meanwhile is depersonalized by default - the naaru are just emanations of a power that represents certain traits and virtues and has power but doesn't have an associated deity. For now, anyway, give it a few years and we'll have Lightlords to loot.

    That Elune has a relatively small back of the woods and that she is much more vague and connected to one race and top of having miracles attributed to her that go outside the paradigm of the other powers along with the fact that the Old Gods didn't exist in WC3 whereas the naaru were 15 years ago now are reasons why her case is different. After 20 years, any reveal would be underwhelming compared to just letting the issue lie. It's not even that I dislike the Night Warrior fare by itself in Shadowlands, it's pretty servicable, Tyrande's neutering aside, but the whole reason we're in a spot where we have to make an ersatz cosmology with the First Ones as the Titans 2.0 and the Jailer as Sarg 2.0 is because we systematically massacred the entire higher tier before. Leaving some things inexplicable or out of our reach or prone to speculation improves them. Going back to the Old Gods, how many people found them more intimidating or interesting after Chronicle than before?
    I'd say their treatment in-game, especially that of N'zoth in 8.3 when he goes full mwahahaha puny mortalsss, did more harm to the Old Gods than any reveal about their origin. Them being tumors mostly dangerous because outright killing them would harm the planet (except when we adventurers do it) has been consistent since Wrath if memory serves. Making them servants in and of itself isn't bad, guys KJ, Gul'dan, Deathwing or Archimonde were servants since their inception after all and fearsome until badly done, with the exception of Gul'dan.

    I have no arguments regarding the second parapgraph tho, and it's my only real lore issue with Shadowlands. Jailer is Lich King but Lich Kingier with a dash of Sargeras, Maldraxxus is Scourge but Scourgier, First Ones are Titans but more Titanic, Brokers are Ethereals but Etherealers, Kyrian are Val'kyr but Val'kyrier, so on and so forth. So much of it seems repackaged, it's why Revendreth is my favorite zone since most of it feels new (aside from the gist of its plot being Suramar 2.0 AKA BEs 3.0) and the developments around the Nathrezim and Denathrius are interesting enough to make the retcons around them broadly acceptable.

    That said, speculation can only last for so long before becoming stale. I'd personally have made Elune more active, but via indirect ways, maybe by forcibly speaking through Tyrande as part of the Night Warrior or something, instead of making said Night Warrior yet another dark side corruption that is shaken off to return the character to factory default settings.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  3. #363
    Quote Originally Posted by Trumpcat View Post
    You had to be very unfamiliar with the lore to think the sister is someone else but Elune. Eonar is so far fetched and Moonberry needs no comment.
    It made sense for Freya to be the sister, to me, because I found the Titan Keepers and the Eternal Ones to be pretty equal in terms of power and hierarchy in their respective pantheons. The Titan Keepers like Odyn, Thorim, Mimiron, Freya, etc. are all about the same size and strength as an Eternal One, were handmade by a higher order of Gods (the Titans themselves, and the First Ones, respectively) and in the case of Odyn and Freya, were capable of creating unique afterlife dimensions of their own.

    Given that there was an intrinsic connection between the Emerald Dream and Ardenweald it made sense for an Eonar-powered Freya (who created the Dream) to be considered a Sister to the Winter Queen (who created Ardenweald).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I'd say their treatment in-game, especially that of N'zoth in 8.3 when he goes full mwahahaha puny mortalsss, did more harm to the Old Gods than any reveal about their origin. Them being tumors mostly dangerous because outright killing them would harm the planet (except when we adventurers do it) has been consistent since Wrath if memory serves. Making them servants in and of itself isn't bad, guys KJ, Gul'dan, Deathwing or Archimonde were servants since their inception after all and fearsome until badly done, with the exception of Gul'dan.

    I have no arguments regarding the second parapgraph tho, and it's my only real lore issue with Shadowlands. Jailer is Lich King but Lich Kingier with a dash of Sargeras, Maldraxxus is Scourge but Scourgier, First Ones are Titans but more Titanic, Brokers are Ethereals but Etherealers, Kyrian are Val'kyr but Val'kyrier, so on and so forth. So much of it seems repackaged, it's why Revendreth is my favorite zone since most of it feels new (aside from the gist of its plot being Suramar 2.0 AKA BEs 3.0) and the developments around the Nathrezim and Denathrius are interesting enough to make the retcons around them broadly acceptable.

    That said, speculation can only last for so long before becoming stale. I'd personally have made Elune more active, but via indirect ways, maybe by forcibly speaking through Tyrande as part of the Night Warrior or something, instead of making said Night Warrior yet another dark side corruption that is shaken off to return the character to factory default settings.
    Hard to make Elune an active character in the plot when her core source material describes her as a goddess of inaction even in cases where her intervention would be game-changing. Elune as anything more than an invisible guiding hand would be a massive retcon.

  4. #364
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    Chronicles literally says they forged it I wouldn’t say that’s very vague unless we’re splitting hairs and want to say we don’t know if any one actually made anything ever.

    Id also say it’s arguable that the keepers are extensions of the Titans early on given that they were following the Titans orders in the early stages of Azeroth before they bugged off and got beat up by sargaras and the Titans even told the green dragons to watch over it.
    No. Was only said it was rumored to be forged by the Keeper Freya. It was then stated that it was likely pulled from somewhere else and that the portion taken was used as Azeroth's blueprint/dream thingy.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    Ah I admit I forgot that further extract was in chronicles. So Mabye it was made by Azeroth then.
    Yeah, it was stated to be a dream born from the world soul. Interviews also hint at something more too. So, idk

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    We know for certain that they made it baring any future retcons.
    I fail to see what your link has to do with it. There's no word about its origins in there.

  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I'd say their treatment in-game, especially that of N'zoth in 8.3 when he goes full mwahahaha puny mortalsss, did more harm to the Old Gods than any reveal about their origin. Them being tumors mostly dangerous because outright killing them would harm the planet (except when we adventurers do it) has been consistent since Wrath if memory serves. Making them servants in and of itself isn't bad, guys KJ, Gul'dan, Deathwing or Archimonde were servants since their inception after all and fearsome until badly done, with the exception of Gul'dan.

    I have no arguments regarding the second parapgraph tho, and it's my only real lore issue with Shadowlands. Jailer is Lich King but Lich Kingier with a dash of Sargeras, Maldraxxus is Scourge but Scourgier, First Ones are Titans but more Titanic, Brokers are Ethereals but Etherealers, Kyrian are Val'kyr but Val'kyrier, so on and so forth. So much of it seems repackaged, it's why Revendreth is my favorite zone since most of it feels new (aside from the gist of its plot being Suramar 2.0 AKA BEs 3.0) and the developments around the Nathrezim and Denathrius are interesting enough to make the retcons around them broadly acceptable.

    That said, speculation can only last for so long before becoming stale. I'd personally have made Elune more active, but via indirect ways, maybe by forcibly speaking through Tyrande as part of the Night Warrior or something, instead of making said Night Warrior yet another dark side corruption that is shaken off to return the character to factory default settings.
    Oh dearie me it's time to brush off the corruption wheel of fortune

  7. #367
    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post


    Elune is the Winter Queen's sister. Sadly I think this confirms she's not a First One. There goes my theory.
    There's still a chance she's a First One. We know very little of the First Ones, it's possible that they're not even sisters by actual relation and just sisters in the same sense as Tyrande being called mother by Shandris.
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    Trust me.

    Zyky is better than you.

  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I'd say their treatment in-game, especially that of N'zoth in 8.3 when he goes full mwahahaha puny mortalsss, did more harm to the Old Gods than any reveal about their origin. Them being tumors mostly dangerous because outright killing them would harm the planet (except when we adventurers do it) has been consistent since Wrath if memory serves. Making them servants in and of itself isn't bad, guys KJ, Gul'dan, Deathwing or Archimonde were servants since their inception after all and fearsome until badly done, with the exception of Gul'dan.
    I honestly don't think N'zoth's portrayal (save for the last five minutes I mean Jesus) was that bad, especially given that it's not the first time we've had an Old God deliver that kind of dialogue. Yoggy told us to bow down, had an even more generic voice and threatened people, but he was back when the Old Gods as a whole were more ambiguous and people were willing to cut it more slack. I'd put N'zoth and him on the relatively same tier in terms of how effective they were as villains, with N'zoth having a better route on-screen but Yogg clinching it on backstory and on not being in BFA. N'zoth's problems were magnified by the Old Gods being a checklist item and by him being outright dead for real, whereas Yogg had more grey areas and so could keep more mysticism, making later additions work better.

    I have no arguments regarding the second parapgraph tho, and it's my only real lore issue with Shadowlands. Jailer is Lich King but Lich Kingier with a dash of Sargeras, Maldraxxus is Scourge but Scourgier, First Ones are Titans but more Titanic, Brokers are Ethereals but Etherealers, Kyrian are Val'kyr but Val'kyrier, so on and so forth. So much of it seems repackaged, it's why Revendreth is my favorite zone since most of it feels new (aside from the gist of its plot being Suramar 2.0 AKA BEs 3.0) and the developments around the Nathrezim and Denathrius are interesting enough to make the retcons around them broadly acceptable.
    The funny thing is, I actually found myself enjoying the zones and characters when I went through them, the only one I think is an entirely a miss is the Jailer because of how thunderously bland he is and how he's tied to the most blatant and pointless retcons. I'll defend the Dreadlord retcon as being an overall good call that brings them closer to their original portrayal and vibe and I even found Maldraxxus growing on me. Maldraxxus is if anything weighed down by having to lug Draka and elements of the pseudo-egyptian Scourge visual design around that exist solely to grab attention. Revendreth is derivative but skates by entirely on execution and presentation so I've got little bad to say about it.

    Regarding the Night Warrior, it's been mishandled from Day 1, but if they went this route they should've had her split her powers not between new characters but between the Teldrassil victims and have them be the vehicle for Elune to deal a serious blow vs. the Jailer/Sylvanas so there's actually pay off to the story. Having her fail at every turn except a fight she'd have won anyway against Nathanos, maybe be competitive vs. Sylvanas in a cinematic only to be reverted to a peacenik that she never was in the first place is the absolute poorest way to end this.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-05-01 at 08:55 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  9. #369
    I am Murloc! Velshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    One with the Light
    Posts
    5,373
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    Uhm...

    Seems you haven't been paying attention. That's ok. But, essentially, no. She's not of the First Ones. She seems to be more linked with the Eternal Ones, or she's apart of a Life Pantheon? Idk, but she's on the same level as essentially every other Cosmic Pantheon like the Titans, etc.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Listen...listen...

    I never said he was perfect, nor did I really say he was good lmao
    I do pay attention thank you I am just speaking my mind I never said it is a fact ok?

    I do think she is superior than the titans.

  10. #370
    "After all this time... she did not abandon me..."

    So the Winter Queen always thought that Elune had abandoned her.

    My guess is that at some point Elune vanished from the Shadowlands, leaving her sister behind. The Winter Queen came to believe that Elune had turned her back on her, but as soon as she sees the Tear of Elune she realizes that wasn't the case.

    Elune's voice is described as "sorrowful". Maybe something happened to her. Maybe she infused her essence into one of Azeroth's moons to watch over the dormant world soul (could Azeroth be Elune's daughter?). Maybe she ascended into godhood, becoming a First One (Xal'atath calls her "an upstart goddess"). Or maybe she sacrificed herself for whatever reason.

    Be that as it may, if Elune is indeed an Eternal One, then it seems that each of the female Eternal Ones is related to one of the fundamental cosmic forces:

    Kyrestia: holy/light
    Winter Queen: nature/life
    Elune: arcane/order
    Last edited by mingarrubia; 2021-05-01 at 10:26 PM.

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I honestly don't think N'zoth's portrayal (save for the last five minutes I mean Jesus) was that bad, especially given that it's not the first time we've had an Old God deliver that kind of dialogue. Yoggy told us to bow down, had an even more generic voice and threatened people, but he was back when the Old Gods as a whole were more ambiguous and people were willing to cut it more slack. I'd put N'zoth and him on the relatively same tier in terms of how effective they were as villains, with N'zoth having a better route on-screen but Yogg clinching it on backstory and on not being in BFA. N'zoth's problems were magnified by the Old Gods being a checklist item and by him being outright dead for real, whereas Yogg had more grey areas and so could keep more mysticism, making later additions work better.



    The funny thing is, I actually found myself enjoying the zones and characters when I went through them, the only one I think is an entirely a miss is the Jailer because of how thunderously bland he is and how he's tied to the most blatant and pointless retcons. I'll defend the Dreadlord retcon as being an overall good call that brings them closer to their original portrayal and vibe and I even found Maldraxxus growing on me. Maldraxxus is if anything weighed down by having to lug Draka and elements of the pseudo-egyptian Scourge visual design around that exist solely to grab attention. Revendreth is derivative but skates by entirely on execution and presentation so I've got little bad to say about it.

    Regarding the Night Warrior, it's been mishandled from Day 1, but if they went this route they should've had her split her powers not between new characters but between the Teldrassil victims and have them be the vehicle for Elune to deal a serious blow vs. the Jailer/Sylvanas so there's actually pay off to the story. Having her fail at every turn except a fight she'd have won anyway against Nathanos, maybe be competitive vs. Sylvanas in a cinematic only to be reverted to a peacenik that she never was in the first place is the absolute poorest way to end this.
    I rather agree. The entire expansion is dramatically weighed down by the Blue Man. The zones, the Dreadlord retcon, and everything else of the sort have serious potential, but Sylvanas and her boss are both very bland characters who have done nothing other than generally weigh down an expansion that could have been far better if Zovaal were a better villain or simply not present.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by mingarrubia View Post
    "After all this time... she did not abandon me..."

    So the Winter Queen always thought that Elune had abandoned her.

    My guess is that at some point Elune vanished from the Shadowlands, leaving her sister behind. The Winter Queen came to believe that Elune had turned her back on her, but as soon as she sees the Tear of Elune she realizes that wasn't the case.

    Elune's voice is described as "sorrowful". Maybe something happened to her. Maybe she infused her essence into one of Azeroth's moons to watch over the dormant world soul (could Azeroth be Elune's daughter?). Maybe she ascended into godhood, becoming a First One (Xal'atath calls her "an upstart goddess"). Or maybe she sacrificed herself for whatever reason.

    Be that as it may, if Elune is indeed an Eternal One, then it seems that each of the female Eternal Ones is related to one of the fundamental cosmic forces:

    Kyrestia: holy/light
    Winter Queen: nature/life
    Elune: arcane/order
    Don't forget you could also tie Denathrius to Disorder due to being the mastermind behind the Dreadlords.

  12. #372
    - - - Updated - - -

    Don't forget you could also tie Denathrius to Disorder due to being the mastermind behind the Dreadlords.[/QUOTE]

    Then to complete the list:

    Overarching Cosmic Power: Death
    Kyrestia: holy/light - Zovaal: Void/Shadow??
    Winter Queen: nature/life - Primus: Death/Undead
    Elune: arcane/order - Denathrius: Disorder

    Though it doesn't work for the Titan Pantheon (despite them being 6 as well!)
    Last edited by Rockefellah; 2021-05-01 at 10:48 PM.

  13. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by mingarrubia View Post
    "After all this time... she did not abandon me..."

    So the Winter Queen always thought that Elune had abandoned her.

    My guess is that at some point Elune vanished from the Shadowlands, leaving her sister behind. The Winter Queen came to believe that Elune had turned her back on her, but as soon as she sees the Tear of Elune she realizes that wasn't the case.

    Elune's voice is described as "sorrowful". Maybe something happened to her. Maybe she infused her essence into one of Azeroth's moons to watch over the dormant world soul (could Azeroth be Elune's daughter?). Maybe she ascended into godhood, becoming a First One (Xal'atath calls her "an upstart goddess"). Or maybe she sacrificed herself for whatever reason.

    Be that as it may, if Elune is indeed an Eternal One, then it seems that each of the female Eternal Ones is related to one of the fundamental cosmic forces:

    Kyrestia: holy/light
    Winter Queen: nature/life
    Elune: arcane/order
    She's probably sorrowful cause she saw her Sister after so long and is maybe also upset about the Jailer's BS?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockefellah View Post
    - - - Updated - - -

    Don't forget you could also tie Denathrius to Disorder due to being the mastermind behind the Dreadlords.
    Then to complete the list:

    Overarching Cosmic Power: Death
    Kyrestia: holy/light - Zovaal: Void/Shadow??
    Winter Queen: nature/life - Primus: Death/Undead
    Elune: arcane/order - Denathrius: Disorder

    Though it doesn't work for the Titan Pantheon (despite them being 6 as well!)[/QUOTE]

    The Light has literally no fucking effect over Bastion, what?

  14. #374
    There's one other thing. We know for certain that titans have a life cycle of sorts. They're born and they can die. We know that Norgannon cast a spell to launch the Pantheon's souls into the great dark beyond just as their bodies were being destroyed by Sargeras. Maybe the same principles apply to the eternal ones from the Shadowlands.

    I'm saying this because the Winter Queen's words could also mean that she knows that Elune's physical form perished a long time ago. Maybe Zovaal was imprisoned in the first place precisely for causing Elune's demise, and the Sepulcher everyone is talking about is her final resting place. Perhaps her soul is stored safely elsewhere. It could even be the case that the soul powering the Arbiter is Elune herself.

  15. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    Way to not understand wtf the First Ones are. Also, even in Old Lore, the Titans weren't really the greatest of Gods. The Universe was supposedly already there by the time the Titans showed, which also fits with the new lore too. The First Ones are supposed to represent the clock/watchmakers of everything. The actual true "deities" of Warcraft.
    Until we find the Before Ones, who outrank the First Ones. When that happens, maybe you'll understand the point I was making.

    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    Ok let's not even vaguely imply that Metzen was doing even anything remotely good for lore.
    Yeah, he only created it, that jackass! Thank God we have Danuser Cringecaller and Christie Golduin to set things straight! LOL.

    I mean my god how many things had he said between Blizzcon and Twitter that were verifiably inaccurate
    Fiction. "verifiably inaccurate". OK then.

    with my favorite being that he claimed the deaths of Cthun and Yogg caused the Cataclysm DURING the expansion when if you actually quested you are literally told the elemental upheaval is caused by the world pillar being broken by DW's emergence which also had nothing to do with the 2 dying.
    Yeah, Blizzard NEVER just abandons plot points and entire patches and raids! (Hint, Cata might not be your best expansion to argue against what I just said.)
    Last edited by Feanoro; 2021-05-02 at 12:58 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Until we find the Before Ones, who outrank the First Ones. When that happens, maybe you'll understand the point I was making.
    Wouldn't make since, considering the name. Meaning, the First Ones came FIRST! Then Light and Shadow, then everything else.

    Unless you want to make deities that came before absolute 0 (Which...are kinda already the First Ones lmao).

  17. #377
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    Wouldn't make since, considering the name. Meaning, the First Ones came FIRST!
    How cute, you think consistency and in-setting logic actually apply, when the writing team is on record saying they find such things constraining.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  18. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    How cute, you think consistency and in-setting logic actually apply, when the writing team is on record saying they find such things constraining.
    What I find cute is how you thought the Titans were the ultimate power in all of WoW, when that was debatable at most.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    The jailer is also there brother them being sisters doesn’t mean there two sides of a a nature based coin or even that they’d have similar magic alignments.

    Chronicles is yes also the word of god from all things the Titans know about, and given that it says they made it the emerald dream has no ties to elune.
    You're right...in a way. I am pretty sure the "sister" thing here is more literal than it seems, especially with the Ardenweald and Planes of Life (And Dream) connections.

    All things the Titans know about is funny, especially since they said a lot about the Shadowlands, yet...well...

    lol

  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Until we find the Before Ones, who outrank the First Ones. When that happens, maybe you'll understand the point I was making.

    Yeah, he only created it, that jackass! Thank God we have Danuser Cringecaller and Christie Golduin to set things straight! LOL.

    Fiction. "verifiably inaccurate". OK then.

    Yeah, Blizzard NEVER just abandons plot points and entire patches and raids! (Hint, Cata might not be your best expansion to argue against what I just said.)
    That's nice, but he still took a huge dump on his own lore CONSTANTLY by not even knowing half of it and then tweeting and getting in front of Blizzcon spewing nonsense that people claim was canon when it was flat out contradicted by what is literally in the game in current content. Metzen was just as much trash.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    Wouldn't make since, considering the name. Meaning, the First Ones came FIRST! Then Light and Shadow, then everything else.

    Unless you want to make deities that came before absolute 0 (Which...are kinda already the First Ones lmao).
    I mean the old gods aren't literal gods either. Names can often take a meaning based on ignorance of those who named them.

  20. #380
    Considering the speculation around Elune for a decade and a half, this is all pretty disappointing. Almost as disappointing of them adding the First One layer. This also kinda contradicts Chronicles I (fuck that Titans PoV noise) in regards to the dragon aspects being empowered by the Pantheon against Odyn's wishes. The 9.1 PTR is kind of annoying from a lore standpoint (Stonewright mixup, whole direction of the Tyrande/Night Warrior arc, etc.)
    Last edited by Sorshen; 2021-05-02 at 02:42 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    I can't believe you idiots banned my main forum account because I was only showing you proof of your trolling. I will keep posting here and I will not stop this war. Just stop disrupting roleplay. You have done enough damage already.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •