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  1. #401
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    ACTUALLY, the Titans and their RPG designs (tho they had a canon art thingy too) were made canon in 7.3. So, Elune could still look like that, if not similar.
    Shame they did not do that for the Dragon Aspect. I liked the RPG look of Nozdormu.

  2. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by Engal View Post
    Shame they did not do that for the Dragon Aspect. I liked the RPG look of Nozdormu.
    Yeah, then again, they've changed the look of the Aspects a lot. Hell, in the game Lord of the Clans, Deathwing looked more like a high, drunk Samurai Dragon than the firey beast we have now. So, maybe the designs aren't perfect for everyone? The Titans were surprisingly consistent, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    That's nice, but he still took a huge dump on his own lore CONSTANTLY by not even knowing half of it and then tweeting and getting in front of Blizzcon spewing nonsense that people claim was canon when it was flat out contradicted by what is literally in the game in current content. Metzen was just as much trash.

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    I mean the old gods aren't literal gods either. Names can often take a meaning based on ignorance of those who named them.
    Being a "god" could mean lots of things. The Old Gods are gods in that they're worshipped by tons of people, and to the mortals, their powers are literally divine. Doesn't help that Old Gods such as N'Zoth literally call themselves "A God", etc. Sargeras was a God too, but he himself is not an actual deity, unless Blizzard wants to confirm that the Cosmic Pantheons are confirmed Deities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Holy Moly. i'm glad they toned down on the "religion" thing you liked so much. Keep that crap out of my game.
    Religion is still some of the biggest things in WoW. It's just that, when looking at things in a literal, cosmic sense, it's not that simple.

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    Hell, the Uther shit in the 9.1 Campaign has Faol speaking in a VERY religious manner.

  3. #403
    The Insane Arafal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    Hell, the Uther shit in the 9.1 Campaign has Faol speaking in a VERY religious manner.
    Well yeah, because they are doing a religious ceremony.

    Trans Rights are Human Rights // Elune Says Queer Rights!

  4. #404
    The Lightbringer Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Blizzard will come with the before ones, change how the universe works again and fuck up any theories we come up with
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  5. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Holy Moly. i'm glad they toned down on the "religion" thing you liked so much. Keep that crap out of my game.
    Lol. Topkek on the edge there. Are you going to own us with your tippy-top high IQ r/atheism brain?

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2021-05-02 at 10:05 PM. Reason: Received Infraction

  6. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    Well yeah, because they are doing a religious ceremony.
    I know. They're just saying "Keep religion out of my WoW" and I'm explaining why it's essential no matter what one thinks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    Lol. Topkek on the edge there. Are you going to own us with your tippy-top high IQ r/atheism brain?
    And this is just being condescending.

  7. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    I don't understand what you're trying to say here.
    I think the idea is that the discussions would have been essentially the same just with the signs reversed if it was Eonar instead.

  8. #408
    Scarab Lord Frontenac's Avatar
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    I can't say I'm surprised. I was favoring Eonar, but Elune was always a close second choice as the Winter Queen's sister. However, I'm not entirely ruling out Eonar either. There are so many links between Eonar and Elune since Legion that they may very well be the same entity.

    • By her origin, Ysera is much more Eonar's pet than Elune's, even though Ysera is linked to Elune, since she was Cenarius' adoptive mother (she even wears a moon crescent as a crown).
    • Out of all the Pillars of Creation, the only Titan who did not have a pillar is Eonar. We got the Tear of Elune instead. Now, I get that this "Tear of Elune" might not be that "Tear of Elune", but the fact remains that Eonar was for a reason replaced with Elune when they created the Pillars of Creation.
    • We find Eonar's spirit on "Elunaria". That cannot be a coincidence.

    If Elune and Eonar are the same entity, that means that either Elune is a Titan, or Eonar was not a Titan afterall. One thing goes against this theory though: Eonar was "killed" by Sargeras and has been missing for eons, while Elune's presence was still felt on Azeroth and other worlds.
    "Je vous répondrai par la bouche de mes canons!"

  9. #409
    Eonar IS Elune

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    I can't say I'm surprised. I was favoring Eonar, but Elune was always a close second choice as the Winter Queen's sister. However, I'm not entirely ruling out Eonar either. There are so many links between Eonar and Elune since Legion that they may very well be the same entity.

    • By her origin, Ysera is much more Eonar's pet than Elune's, even though Ysera is linked to Elune, since she was Cenarius' adoptive mother (she even wears a moon crescent as a crown).
    • Out of all the Pillars of Creation, the only Titan who did not have a pillar is Eonar. We got the Tear of Elune instead. Now, I get that this "Tear of Elune" might not be that "Tear of Elune", but the fact remains that Eonar was for a reason replaced with Elune when they created the Pillars of Creation.
    • We find Eonar's spirit on "Elunaria". That cannot be a coincidence.

    If Elune and Eonar are the same entity, that means that either Elune is a Titan, or Eonar was not a Titan afterall. One thing goes against this theory though: Eonar was "killed" by Sargeras and has been missing for eons, while Elune's presence was still felt on Azeroth and other worlds.
    Eonar was never killed just her physical body destroyed.

    "Norgannon bent the raw energies of the universe to his willl, weaving a protective shroud around each of the Pantheon titans' spirits and launching them into the Great Dark. While the titans' disembodied souls hurtled through the cosmos, Sargeras's fel storm obliterated what remained of their physical forms. Unaware that the titans' spirits had survived, Sargeras declared the Burning Legion victorious."
    Quote Originally Posted by Jedi Batman View Post
    Sounds like a euphemism for real life. We throw money at the rich, in hopes that we will someday be rich, and then we get hookers to piss on us. That's what trickle down economics really is.

  10. #410
    The Insane Arafal's Avatar
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    Ysera is much more Eonar's pet than Elune's
    Why?
    Eonars and Yseras relationship begins and ends with the blessing, which only occurred because titan keeper Freya invoked her and essentially asked for a favor.
    Afaik they haven't interacted with each other since, how could they? Eonar was in hiding for most of the time period that came after.

    Whereas Ysera had a very apparent close relationship with the Night elves and every benevolent dream related creature, especially Malorne.
    Not to forget that she fostered Cenarius in Elunes stead.

    Trans Rights are Human Rights // Elune Says Queer Rights!

  11. #411
    Scarab Lord Frontenac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    Why?
    Eonars and Yseras relationship begins and ends with the blessing, which only occurred because titan keeper Freya invoked her and essentially asked for a favor.
    Afaik they haven't interacted with each other since, how could they? Eonar was in hiding for most of the time period that came after.

    Whereas Ysera had a very apparent close relationship with the Night elves and every benevolent dream related creature, especially Malorne.
    Not to forget that she fostered Cenarius in Elunes stead.
    As the Aspect of Dreams, Ysera is Eonar's creation, and she follows the mandate given to her by Eonar/Freya, even though she's not an Aspect anymore. Therefore, her relation to Eonar does not end with the blessing. It begins with it. That makes her Eonar's "pet". But I'm not denying her links to Elune and the fact she was Cenarius' surrogate mother, as I have written.

    If Elune is Eonar, then the problem is moot. It can also be that Ysera was put under Elune's authority. If the Winter Queen rules over Ardenweald, it is possible that Elune rules over the Emerald Dream, but understood as a universal Emerald Dream, and not only as Azeroth's blue print. Ysera would have been charged with the protection of Azeroth's part of the Emerald Dream, and thus put under Elune's authority. Which would make her "Elune's pet".
    "Je vous répondrai par la bouche de mes canons!"

  12. #412
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    I can't say I'm surprised. I was favoring Eonar, but Elune was always a close second choice as the Winter Queen's sister. However, I'm not entirely ruling out Eonar either. There are so many links between Eonar and Elune since Legion that they may very well be the same entity.
    Elune and Eonar were always two distinct entities, even in the RPGs. As I stated above.

    Eonar is most Likely a priestess of Elune or devoted to Elune. And since the tear of Elune is right now a new Tear, and that Elune probably spoke directly to her sister through Tyrande during the cinematic, I'm ruling Eonar for good.

    Moreover, infusing Tyrande with the night warrior was Elune's doing, I can't fathom Eonar trying to bind Sargeras and infusing Elune at the same time with void power she never shown to have.

  13. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by Engal View Post
    Elune and Eonar were always two distinct entities, even in the RPGs. As I stated above.

    Eonar is most Likely a priestess of Elune or devoted to Elune. And since the tear of Elune is right now a new Tear, and that Elune probably spoke directly to her sister through Tyrande during the cinematic, I'm ruling Eonar for good.

    Moreover, infusing Tyrande with the night warrior was Elune's doing, I can't fathom Eonar trying to bind Sargeras and infusing Elune at the same time with void power she never shown to have.
    Eonar being a priestess of Elune is actually a pretty good bet. I like that.

  14. #414
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    Eonar being a priestess of Elune is actually a pretty good bet. I like that.
    I'm not sure priestess is the right word when talking about a race whose members you can count on your hands, but i could buy her being a worshipper.

  15. #415
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    I'm not sure priestess is the right word when talking about a race whose members you can count on your hands, but i could buy her being a worshipper.
    Intergalactic Pontifex of Elune, then?

  16. #416
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    Intergalactic Pontifex of Elune, then?
    Well, the Titans certainly build more than one bridge, so sure.

  17. #417
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I honestly don't think N'zoth's portrayal (save for the last five minutes I mean Jesus) was that bad, especially given that it's not the first time we've had an Old God deliver that kind of dialogue. Yoggy told us to bow down, had an even more generic voice and threatened people, but he was back when the Old Gods as a whole were more ambiguous and people were willing to cut it more slack. I'd put N'zoth and him on the relatively same tier in terms of how effective they were as villains, with N'zoth having a better route on-screen but Yogg clinching it on backstory and on not being in BFA. N'zoth's problems were magnified by the Old Gods being a checklist item and by him being outright dead for real, whereas Yogg had more grey areas and so could keep more mysticism, making later additions work better.



    The funny thing is, I actually found myself enjoying the zones and characters when I went through them, the only one I think is an entirely a miss is the Jailer because of how thunderously bland he is and how he's tied to the most blatant and pointless retcons. I'll defend the Dreadlord retcon as being an overall good call that brings them closer to their original portrayal and vibe and I even found Maldraxxus growing on me. Maldraxxus is if anything weighed down by having to lug Draka and elements of the pseudo-egyptian Scourge visual design around that exist solely to grab attention. Revendreth is derivative but skates by entirely on execution and presentation so I've got little bad to say about it.

    Regarding the Night Warrior, it's been mishandled from Day 1, but if they went this route they should've had her split her powers not between new characters but between the Teldrassil victims and have them be the vehicle for Elune to deal a serious blow vs. the Jailer/Sylvanas so there's actually pay off to the story. Having her fail at every turn except a fight she'd have won anyway against Nathanos, maybe be competitive vs. Sylvanas in a cinematic only to be reverted to a peacenik that she never was in the first place is the absolute poorest way to end this.
    N'zoth was really hit some and miss some. He had the most build-up out of any WoW villain by a significant margin, being active in the background since Cata, and if you ditch the faction war aspect of BFA the story of his rise globally makes sense and gives you the impression that he is indeed cunning and powerful. And hell, in terms of power he got pretty swole, we needed no less than 4 plot devices (Heart, cloak, dagger, Forge) to beat him, and he was within seconds of MCing the raid and winning anyway. But in other times his presentation was pretty bad, he went "mwahaha mortals I iz GOD!!" too often for my tastes and of course there's the infamously bad cutscene that spelled his doom, on top of the idiocy of leaving the dagger to Azshara for some reason. He mostly suffered from the fact that we're player characters and thus need to win, much like say Ganon in Zelda is usually cool and has decent plans but must lose to some kid with a fancy sword because destiny says so.

    Lorewise Shadowlands isn't anywhere near the BFA disaster, aye, even accounting for its tendency to recycle concepts. Unfortunately the central conflict and villains at the heart of it is, as is too often the case in WoW expansions, the weakest part; the Jailer is so far one of the blandest villains in existence and I surely need not wax lyrical on how much of a trainwreck Sylvanas is a character. So things might still go downhill yet.

    And indeed, for all the talk about the Night Warrior being some serious shit all Tyrande did with this legendary forbidden power is fry a dozen Forsaken mooks, finish off a 10% HP Nathanos and kill random Mawsworn which even Baine is capable of. Meanwhile Sylvanas becomes an anime villain with no build-up or explanations other than loljailer. The character favoritism is quite clear.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  18. #418
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    N'zoth was really hit some and miss some. He had the most build-up out of any WoW villain by a significant margin, being active in the background since Cata, and if you ditch the faction war aspect of BFA the story of his rise globally makes sense and gives you the impression that he is indeed cunning and powerful. And hell, in terms of power he got pretty swole, we needed no less than 4 plot devices (Heart, cloak, dagger, Forge) to beat him, and he was within seconds of MCing the raid and winning anyway. But in other times his presentation was pretty bad, he went "mwahaha mortals I iz GOD!!" too often for my tastes and of course there's the infamously bad cutscene that spelled his doom, on top of the idiocy of leaving the dagger to Azshara for some reason. He mostly suffered from the fact that we're player characters and thus need to win, much like say Ganon in Zelda is usually cool and has decent plans but must lose to some kid with a fancy sword because destiny says so.
    I'm honestly interested in knowing if you think things would be better or worse if they went with N'Zoth still being alive. The idea has sort of grown on me - I do genuinely think that if he had a full expansion, he could end up being more interesting.

  19. #419
    Bloodsail Admiral Pheraz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    I wonder how this affects Tauren religion and cosmology, since An'she is said to be Elune's brother.

    Oh, who am I kidding; no one on the current WoW creative team remembers An'she or the Sunwalkers, and even if they did they wouldn't do An'she justice.



    I never got the Elune - Eonar connection. It was a theory that came out of nowhere simply because the moon showed up in Eonar's room in Antorus. Prior to that there had never been any overlap between Elune or the Titans in how either were presented or described.



    And possibly Azeroth's sun? Since Elune is tied to the moon, and Elune's brother An'she is associated with the sun.



    Elune and the Light. But once the Light was retconned from being a "yes really god" from WC3 through MoP into just being another elemental force like Fel or Arcane in WoD, it was only a matter of time before the creative hacks came after Elune and tore her down into just being another mundane super as well.



    Also because no one on the current WoW team has an ounce of faith in their bones.



    Sylvanas is already Kerrigan 2.0. Blizzard mind as well go all the way and have Sylvanas save the universe from a giant space slug by lasering it.



    Because the writers have no imagination and don't have an ounce of faith in their bones.

    Blizzard's writers seem to think that the game can't go on without introducing higher and higher powerlevel guys for us to fight. And since the writers are incapable of creating new things, they decide to look back at the lore Metzen painstakingly crafted, the stuff people are already invested in, and take that and retcon it to suit their narrative, hoping that the fandom's investment in Metzen's stuff will carry over.



    Or the writers could, you know, just leave Elune alone and go make up new forces for us to fight? Why not have the player join an expedition to the other side of the world and go on some good 'ole fun adventuring, like we did in Pandaria? No need to have new end of the world threats or even MOAR POWERFUL big bads than the last.



    They'd be a fool to think so.

    Let's look at the eras of Warcraft lore over the years:

    • WC1 lore was throwaway lines made up by the voice actor who was brought in to narrate the game while he was in the recording booth. WC2 lore had a little more effort put in but that was it.
    • WC3 through Wrath lore (started with the novel "Of Blood and Honor" and the adventure game that was cancelled) was painstackingly crafted by Metzen.
    • Cata through MoP: Metzen is still in charge but religion begins to be downplayed (probably by a mandate from Blizzard) but is still overall consistent with the lore since WC3.
    • WoD: Metzen leaves. The new creative team takesover and immediately begins dismantling the Light, retconning it from being a "yes really god" in the setting to being "just another elemental force like Arcane or Fel". The new creative team also goes on a mass retcon spree (not that Metzen didn't retcon stuff but he never did it to this degree). At this point it is clear that the writers are making stuff up as they go along and have no respect for the work laid down by prior writers, and don't respect the intelligence of the fans.



    Can't wait for 2 or 3 expansions from now when the next "higher tier" precursor race is introduced. "Who are the precursors who were around before The First Ones?"



    Not to derail too much but it's obvious that FFXIV has been living rent free in Blizzard's head. Going by population metrics, FFXIV will soon overtake WoW in subscriber numbers in a couple years or less (likely with the release of the Endwalker expansion). Over the past couple years, Blizzard consistently tries to line up WoW patch cycles with FFXIV patch cycles. Just look at how Blizzard waiting until FFXIV's 5.5 patch date was announced to announce WoW's 9.1 PTR at the same time is no coincidence, trying to keep WoW players from jumping ship by teasing them new WoW stuff to try out (even if it is unfinished). And the Shadowlands expansion was blatantly named such to try to be conflated with the Shadowbringers expansion and get similar search results when people look up ShB.



    Erm, what? An'she in the handful of NPC dialogue, quests, and the Bleeding Sun short story presented him as more of a passive Native American-esque "Great Spirit" watching silently in the sky. IIRC An'she didn't even anything to do with Dezco's kids being taken away; that was the August Celestials. The Light - since the first Warcraft novel by Metzen, "Of Blood and Honor", has been depicted as a Christian God and is shown to be active in events.

    Furthermore, the way Dezco’s powers are described in Bleeding Sun have no overlap with the abilities that Paladin’s and Priests draw upon from the Light. It’s clear that Tauren Sunwalkers are NOT Paladins and do not draw upon the Light. They are classified as Paladins for game purposes only, because it’s impractical design an entire class that can only be used by one race for lore purposes when you can just slot that lore class into an existing gameplay class (like how Dark Rangers in lore are their own thing but in gameplay they’re just marksmanship hunters). I wish that Sunwalker Tauren had gotten unique spell effects, but alas.

    Also, if An'she really is The Light or a Naaru…



    Imagine Blizzard saying that. Actually, wait. I can.



    Given how Blizzard dismantled the Light as an actual god after Metzen left, and they've just dismantled Elune, there is no way Blizzard is going to reintroduce another actual god. From now on everyone is going to be a greek-esque super you and kill if your powerlevel is high enough.



    An'she, but thankfully it seems that he has been forgotten so at least he can't be ruined. At least we Sunwalkers can have the dignity of our lore not being run over by an 18-wheeler and thrown into a ditch.




    Nailed it.



    Some thing shouldn't be "uncovered". Some things are perfectly fine - and work best - if left alone.



    With the current WoW team you'll be disappointed. The Metzen days are seven years past.
    I agree with you on some points, but sorry, most people do not care about tauren sun thingie. If you say something looks made up then it is the whole tauren ALSOOO love elune thing. Elune is a night elf thing. Stop making tauren sun stuff a thing.
    I think it is somehow embarssing how they try to throw cows at us all the time. First in druidism and now with this sun stuff. Tauren paladins were really the crown of absurdism. Stop.
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  20. #420
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    I'm honestly interested in knowing if you think things would be better or worse if they went with N'Zoth still being alive. The idea has sort of grown on me - I do genuinely think that if he had a full expansion, he could end up being more interesting.
    I mean, N'zoth had an expansion, it was BFA. His imprint was all over it from 8.0 onwards, he had three raids dedicated to either his underlings or him, and he ultimately drove the non faction war part of the plot, with an entire patch dedicated to him which is more spotlight than most raid endbosses get. Lack of exposure really wasn't N'zoth's problem, it was poor execution of said exposure in key places.

    As for him being alive, I dunno, much as his death was anticlimatic bringing him back would feel cheap, albeit I'm sure it'll happen in the inevitable Void expansion in 10.0 or 11.0.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

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