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  1. #441
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    No idea where you got the assumption that the First Ones are a copy of the Titans.
    Because I can actually read and understand narrative themes, rather than defend unoriginal hack work.

    I got the point just fine.
    Yet instead of debating the point, you simply deny it and use ad homs, since you can't actually defend your statements.

    You’re just upset that your wanking of the Titans didn’t go to plan.
    So your argument is "you mad". Thank you for letting me know not to waste further time taking you seriously.

    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    I see what you are saying and agree to an extent. Mostly the implementation of big lore reveals, their impact, and if it's believable. But does it really matter where the inspiration for "new" lore, that overrides "old" lore, since no matter what it becomes canon and we have to deal with it? Is it that significantly bad?
    When it completely cheapens and denigrates the existing lore, yes it's bad. Tearing down existing characters and themes to build up others is bad fanfiction tier.
    Last edited by Feanoro; 2021-05-04 at 04:45 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  2. #442
    Quote Originally Posted by Engal View Post
    Elune was always , in blizzard's mind, the powerhouse far above titans and old gods, even Sargeras.
    Keyword: was

    I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Danuser and his team don't even know about this book.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Holy Moly. i'm glad they toned down on the "religion" thing you liked so much. Keep that crap out of my game.
    Why? Religion in fantasy settings is pretty cool. If it's not used politically. It doesn't have to mirror the real world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    Eonar being a priestess of Elune is actually a pretty good bet. I like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    I'm not sure priestess is the right word when talking about a race whose members you can count on your hands, but i could buy her being a worshipper.
    I like both of these things. Anything that puts Elune higher on the power level scale.

  3. #443
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Because I can actually read and understand narrative themes, rather than defend unoriginal hack work.

    Yet instead of debating the point, you simply deny it and use ad homs, since you can't actually defend your statements.

    So your argument is "you mad". Thank you for letting me know not to waste further time taking you seriously.

    When it completely cheapens and denigrates the existing lore, yes it's bad. Tearing down existing characters and themes to build up others is bad fanfiction tier.
    Your only argument is that the new lore ruins everything the old lore established, when that's clearly not the case. And you saying "CAUSE I ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT I TALK ABOUT" isn't much of an argument if you can't prove it. Show me where in the old lore that the Titans created the entire framework of the Warcraft Universe, or that they ruled over Death itself, or other realms like that. Show me where the Titans in the new lore aren't as powerful as they were in the old lore, cause they're actually far more powerful in the new lore than in the old lore, since they're not divided by this Vanir and other race crap.

    Sargeras being fucked over by the Void Lords is still the same, the Titans ordered Reality and helped shape entire galaxies, systems, etc across the entire multiverse (Like they have since the very beginning), and all that crazy jazz. Nothing about the Titans is downplayed, nothing is "ruined". I want you to actually read up on who the Titans actually fuckin were and are, before you bring up baseless assumptions like "OH, YOU'RE JUST DEFENDING IT FOR NO REASON!", when in reality it's...more than you probably think.

    The Titans back in the day were the most powerful beings we knew. Yes. That much is true, and that much is fine. The same still kind of applies. However, that doesn't mean they're the pinnacle of ALL Warcraft Lore. They were the pinnacle of what we on Azeroth knew. Nothing more. So, when these First Ones come in, and it's stated that they're the great Architects of the entire Warcraft Universe (Which fits in the Bibles terminology of God perfect as he was the "Architect of All Existence"), I personally think it's fine, since the Titans were ALWAYS stated to be around when the Universe was first born. Hell, there were things Blizzard sprouted way back when on the Cosmos' creation, and none of them talked about the Titans being the big almighty creators of everything ever. But it did ponder the questions on whether or not the Big Bang came first, or an all-powerful deity/architect (Which, funny enough, are BOTH concepts Blizzard are using for Existences beginning, tho they seem to have the First Ones as the guys that came First, and they essentially Architected all of existence...or at least, that's what I'm getting from all this shit, ya know?). However, that doesn't include the Titans, as they always came soon after...which is the same thing as now.

    So no. The First Ones are not "The Titans but better", nor do you actually get the actual memo, since...even the old lore kinda dismantles your little "Titans are the top gods in all of WoW" theory. Hell, even MoP had the Titans talk about their "fall" and shit like that. And prior to even MoP, the old lore had the Old Gods capable of dismantling Sargeras based on the WoTA trilogy and Krasus' statements, which just turned out to be plain wrong.

    Sargeras and the Titans actually got boosted in the new lore, but their overall purpose remained the same the entire time. They brought Order to creation. They razed and decimated entire systems in 1 mortal heart beat. They NEVER made all existence, they NEVER ruled over the realms of Death, or Void, etc. Nothing has changed. The First Ones do NOT ruin the Titans and their importance. For the love of all that is holy, please understand that.

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    "You can't argue your points"

    And when I finally argue my points, you and many others dismiss them as "OH, YOU'RE JUST DEFENDING BLIZZARD'S CURRENTLY WRITING" when that's not at all what I'm doing.

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    "SHOW ME WHERE IT'S STATED THE TITANS DID NOT COME FIRST AND WEREN'T THE GUYS THAT MADE EXISTENCE"

    https://wowwiki-archive.fandom.com/w...f_the_Universe

    Funny how this OLD ASS BOOK from the game is not at all contradicted in the new Lore. The only thing that's wacky is how they handled the Titans, seemingly making them an entire armada and empire of dudes that were led by the Pantheon, rather than...well...the small group known as the Pantheon we see today. So, maybe just contextualize it a bit? Either way, the OLD LORE gives the Titans the same purpose as the new Lore. To bring about Order and Stability to the Universe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    Keyword: was

    I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Danuser and his team don't even know about this book.

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    Why? Religion in fantasy settings is pretty cool. If it's not used politically. It doesn't have to mirror the real world.

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    I like both of these things. Anything that puts Elune higher on the power level scale.
    I mean, Elune can be of any Pantheon and still affect multiple other Cosmic powers. Why does she need to be higher than guys like the Jailer, the Arbiter, or even someone like Aman'thul? She's got almost no impressive feats whatsoever.

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    And making a damn constellation out of Ysera isn't shit. The Titans casually do that and more in 1 singular mortal Heart beat.

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    Oh, and don't take my word for it. Take Algalon's. And I don't wanna hear this shit regarding "flowery language". The dude was literally talking about the Titans and their vast power, and why it's literally hopeless for us to stand against their rule, despite him not knowing they were dead at the time...tho him lacking emotion in the recent millennia maybe gave him an idea.

  4. #444
    Quote Originally Posted by Skandulous View Post
    Besides the Titans themselves Eonar literally created all life on the planets. Why would a literal god worship something else lol. Eonar created Freya and empowered her and Freya created the Emerald dream which is connected to Ardenweld. Freya also empowered Ysera and the aspects with Eonars power. Even lady Moonberry said in the cinematic if Ysera dies then the Emerald dream dies as well. Nobody not even Ysera could change the Emerald dream only Freya and Eonar could. Eonar can restore life to any being or human or animal with out them going to the shadowlands or Ardenweld. Eonar also hid on the planet Elunaria which some believe is the world soul she was born from.
    There's a difference between a God and a sufficiently-advanced alien - they're just indistinguishable on Azeroth. Keep in mind that Cthulhu was also Azathoth's high priest.

  5. #445
    Guys, the best move is to completely ignore the lore. The lore is utterly destroyed. Its a joke. Just pretend it doesn't exist.
    TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.

  6. #446
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    There's a difference between a God and a sufficiently-advanced alien - they're just indistinguishable on Azeroth. Keep in mind that Cthulhu was also Azathoth's high priest.
    except elune isnt a literal god. at least not as far as we know. so far, shes likely justas much an "advanced alien" as the titans or eternal ones.
    The crooked shitposter with no eyes is watching from the endless thread.

    From the space that is everywhere and nowhere, the crooked shitposter feasts on memes.

    He has no eyes to see, but he dreams of infinite memeing and trolling.

  7. #447
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    Guys, the best move is to completely ignore the lore. The lore is utterly destroyed. Its a joke. Just pretend it doesn't exist.
    Way to not understand shit. Like, we have pages and pages of talking about the shit. The least you could do is at least pay attention, man.

  8. #448
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    Guys, the best move is to completely ignore the lore. The lore is utterly destroyed. Its a joke. Just pretend it doesn't exist.
    Theoretically, if such an option were within our interests, perhaps we wouldn't be in the lore forum? Perhaps it would behoove you to consider that people in the lore forum, as bad as the lore may be, have some interest in talking about the lore which a single post would not derail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    except elune isnt a literal god. at least not as far as we know. so far, shes likely justas much an "advanced alien" as the titans or eternal ones.
    Good enough point. It really depends on what she is, of course, and whether Danuser decides to push her into his new narrative or if he'll keep her as her status. If she was formerly a Not-Titan as I've seen suggested, then she could be both formerly one of them and worshipped by those on her former scale due to her new scale.

  9. #449
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    Theoretically, if such an option were within our interests, perhaps we wouldn't be in the lore forum? Perhaps it would behoove you to consider that people in the lore forum, as bad as the lore may be, have some interest in talking about the lore which a single post would not derail.

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    Good enough point. It really depends on what she is, of course, and whether Danuser decides to push her into his new narrative or if he'll keep her as her status. If she was formerly a Not-Titan as I've seen suggested, then she could be both formerly one of them and worshipped by those on her former scale due to her new scale.
    She never had a status prior to this "reveal". Her being a "goddess" is just what Mortals and lesser Deities praised her of being.

    I'd argue the Progenitors (AKA The First Ones) are the closest things to actual Gods in WoW.

  10. #450
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    Theoretically, if such an option were within our interests, perhaps we wouldn't be in the lore forum?
    It sounds to me like the frustration is high enough in this forum that people need to hear the words "ignore the lore, its trash".
    TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.

  11. #451
    I am Murloc! Asrialol's Avatar
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    I'm not quite sure I understand why people are upset about Elune being a first one. Exactly 'what' Elune is has been unknown, and now that it isn't, people are upset because it didn't fit whatever they imagined her to be? Or what.
    Hi

  12. #452
    Quote Originally Posted by Asrialol View Post
    I'm not quite sure I understand why people are upset about Elune being a first one. Exactly 'what' Elune is has been unknown, and now that it isn't, people are upset because it didn't fit whatever they imagined her to be? Or what.
    I think it's more like the whole pac.
    It's not that Elune isn't first. It is that I see being pathetic from BFA.
    They sold you as "THE GODDESS" and at the moment of truth it turns out that Broswandi is better in almost every aspect.

    I mean, it seems that she will follow the path of Nzoth. From being one of the most anticipated things to being something completely forgettable.

  13. #453
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    It sounds to me like the frustration is high enough in this forum that people need to hear the words "ignore the lore, its trash".
    That is a very, very incorrect inference of the atmosphere and situation.

  14. #454
    Quote Originally Posted by Asrialol View Post
    I'm not quite sure I understand why people are upset about Elune being a first one. Exactly 'what' Elune is has been unknown, and now that it isn't, people are upset because it didn't fit whatever they imagined her to be? Or what.
    Actually, it still is. We only learned that the Winter Queen considers her a sister. That might narrow things down a bit, but hardly gives us any hard evidence about her nature.

  15. #455
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    I think that very much depends on if Danuser makes them his virtual harem or not. Seeing as his undead waifu was elevated from running away from Kel'thuzad while she has backup to literally annihilating Bolvar and his army of undead, if they are kawaii enough their power may simply be limitless.
    I like you, you see straight through that man, it's uncanny.

  16. #456
    Loa of Death Bwonsamdi the Dead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    Guys, the best move is to completely ignore the lore. The lore is utterly destroyed. Its a joke. Just pretend it doesn't exist.
    I'm trying my best to after seeing what they've done with Bwonsamdi/Mueh'zala in Ardenweald. I... I really don't know they could fix them at this point... And troll Lore is already pretty... sad anyways since almost every one is dead

    Another day, another Deal....

  17. #457
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Actually, it still is. We only learned that the Winter Queen considers her a sister. That might narrow things down a bit, but hardly gives us any hard evidence about her nature.
    Exactly, it doesn't even mean they are actual sisters, , just like in some cultures or with some people, they form a bond strong enough with someone to call sister, big sister or little sister, even though they have no relations. it could be that.

    All depends on the imagination of Danuser, but last i checked he has no love or regard for night elves or things tied to their lore. Unfortunately for Elune while Metzen was in charge, she was almost exclusively with regards to the night elves despite her position elevating her far beyond just one race.

    Therefore people who don't care for night elves, tend not to care for Elune as they don't perceive her outside the bracket of their race.

    If Danuser is one such, Elune is a commodity to be used, and will not get the sort of service the fans have expected from her description and Metzen's past insistence that she is actually a true goddess in the Warcraft universe. He will not pay any heed to that, and like most things will tangentialise it into something else.

    The best approach was to leave Elune a mystery as this being that is pretty much far above all of this she only acts by influence and inspiration to others pursuing causes of actions that preserve or save lives, as you would expect of true divinity. Play to those strengths and don't reveal much.

    But i guess the mystery ends here.

  18. #458
    Quote Originally Posted by Asrialol View Post
    I'm not quite sure I understand why people are upset about Elune being a first one. Exactly 'what' Elune is has been unknown, and now that it isn't, people are upset because it didn't fit whatever they imagined her to be? Or what.
    She's not a First One? Why do people confuse "Eternal Ones" with "First Ones"? Besides, she may not even be an Eternal One, though she is connected to them.

  19. #459
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    I think most people thought it was Eonar, if not just because their themes have heavy overlap being associated with nature. That said, it's still possible that she is referring to Eonar and that the Tear of Elune is actually just something that was created by Eonar and eventually coopted by the Elves.
    This is also possibly true.

    there is also possible that there is a connection between Eonar and Elune that has later yet to be revealed. .and that would explain a lot of things. i use to suspect Eonar was Elune, but if Elune's description by Metzen stands, she has to be more than Eonar, yet somehow there is a connection and link.

    Either that or the Elves got confused, the titan artifacts they discovered pointed to Eonar, but and some of Eonar's spirit's inside pointed to Elune, just so happens for the elves that Elune took an interest in them at just the right time or decided that she would establish this race as a group to ensure her interests are maintained in the lifecycle on Azeroth - i mean.. elves seem pretty jealously guarded over magic and nature - perhaps Elune wanted them the race to ensure these don't go out of hand or something.

  20. #460
    Most of us players are too dumb to think it's Eonar. I assumed it was Elune from the get-go, and I'm not completely ignorant of lore. I actually visit here and wowhead, unlike probably the majority of the player base.

    So, I think we are again overestimating Blizzard's depth of story-telling. If there is a clear answer, that's probably the right one.

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