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  1. #461
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    If Danuser is one such, Elune is a commodity to be used, and will not get the sort of service the fans have expected from her description and Metzen's past insistence that she is actually a true goddess in the Warcraft universe. He will not pay any heed to that, and like most things will tangentialise it into something else.
    SL just revealed that she is in fact being worshipped all over the universe, with the other Night Warriors we meet being from different planets. So i don't think this is a valid path.

  2. #462
    Quote Originally Posted by musicallittle1 View Post
    Most of us players are too dumb to think it's Eonar. I assumed it was Elune from the get-go, and I'm not completely ignorant of lore. I actually visit here and wowhead, unlike probably the majority of the player base.

    So, I think we are again overestimating Blizzard's depth of story-telling. If there is a clear answer, that's probably the right one.
    It really isn't hard to think Eonar at all. Hell, I thought it could've been Eonar, and I've been a lore geek for awhile now. And don't be so damn condescending, it's weird.

  3. #463
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    This is also possibly true.

    there is also possible that there is a connection between Eonar and Elune that has later yet to be revealed. .and that would explain a lot of things. i use to suspect Eonar was Elune, but if Elune's description by Metzen stands, she has to be more than Eonar, yet somehow there is a connection and link.

    Either that or the Elves got confused, the titan artifacts they discovered pointed to Eonar, but and some of Eonar's spirit's inside pointed to Elune, just so happens for the elves that Elune took an interest in them at just the right time or decided that she would establish this race as a group to ensure her interests are maintained in the lifecycle on Azeroth - i mean.. elves seem pretty jealously guarded over magic and nature - perhaps Elune wanted them the race to ensure these don't go out of hand or something.
    The Tear of Elune is a 99% creation from Elune.
    From the description of Aegwynn about the tear in the Tomb of Sargeras, I suspect that Elune created this Tear for Eonar during the Ordering of Azeroth.

    " These tears of perfect beauty embody the dream of what our world could be. Today they purify your hearts for the battle to come. "

    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    It really isn't hard to think Eonar at all. Hell, I thought it could've been Eonar, and I've been a lore geek for awhile now. And don't be so damn condescending, it's weird.
    Honestly I always found this Elune = Eonar theory a bit odd. Particularly when both have always been depicted as separate entities from the start. Moreover, Eonar was supposed to be ' dead ' or in a state of a 'lingering spirit' from Aeons, thus, shouldn't have been able to pull what Elune did in all those periods.

    Another thing that points to Elune being more that what we think :

    The First Ones were introducted in this expansion, and we have development on Elune's at the same time. Not a coincidence, both are linked.
    Last edited by Engal; 2021-05-05 at 08:37 PM.

  4. #464
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    Stuff.
    Do let me know when you want to go over what I actually say, and not this "TITANS AM DA BEST" strawman you're doing your damnedest to assign to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  5. #465
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Do let me know when you want to go over what I actually say, and not this "TITANS AM DA BEST" strawman you're doing your damnedest to assign to me.
    No, I clearly got what you meant, and I clearly debunked it. No strawmanning here, bud.

    - - - Updated - - -

    You think the Titans, Elune, and their lore got ruined cause of Danuser, and I explained to you why it’s not the case.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Engal View Post
    The Tear of Elune is a 99% creation from Elune.
    From the description of Aegwynn about the tear in the Tomb of Sargeras, I suspect that Elune created this Tear for Eonar during the Ordering of Azeroth.

    " These tears of perfect beauty embody the dream of what our world could be. Today they purify your hearts for the battle to come. "



    Honestly I always found this Elune = Eonar theory a bit odd. Particularly when both have always been depicted as separate entities from the start. Moreover, Eonar was supposed to be ' dead ' or in a state of a 'lingering spirit' from Aeons, thus, shouldn't have been able to pull what Elune did in all those periods.

    Another thing that points to Elune being more that what we think :

    The First Ones were introducted in this expansion, and we have development on Elune's at the same time. Not a coincidence, both are linked.
    I never argued her to be Elune. I also disagree with the idea that she’s a First One. First Ones seem to be WAY more “above” than the Cosmic Pantheons.

  6. #466
    Stood in the Fire guisadop's Avatar
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    Do we have anything indicating that Eonar and Elune are different beings?

    EDIT: Oh, sorry, I think you guys are having this discussion in the last few pages. I was in page 3 when I replied.
    ...that's just my opinion, anyway.

  7. #467
    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post


    Elune is the Winter Queen's sister. Sadly I think this confirms she's not a First One. There goes my theory.
    Uhm...Winter queen says at beginning of expansion when she first sees Ysera "this is of my sister" in the leveling quests in Ardenweald..and since Elune looked after Ysera, think Legion 'tear of Elune"...

  8. #468
    Elune = Eonar is a dumb theory that I never heard before now, and nothing we seen remotely suggests that.

    Eonar being something of a Priestess of Elune makes more sense. Given that knowledge of Elune among the other worlds is apparently common, it seems unlikely that Elune would be a mystery to the Titans. Then it makes sense, why Eonar's Pillar of Creation is a Tear of Elune. It would also explain why her Titan-soul was hiding on a planet called Elunaria. Eonar being a Priestess of Elune, or deriving power from Elune is some capacity, seems pretty obvious when you line up the facts.

    AND that would mean Elune is ultimately responsible for the ascension of Ysera, or is the source of the power that was granted to her, in a trickle-down god-onomics kind of way, which explains 'my sisters pet'.

  9. #469
    Quote Originally Posted by guisadop View Post
    Do we have anything indicating that Eonar and Elune are different beings?

    EDIT: Oh, sorry, I think you guys are having this discussion in the last few pages. I was in page 3 when I replied.
    We have nothing to prove they’re the same. I’m of the idea that Elune was once an Eternal One that went rogue, or is possibly of the Pantheon of Light (Due to a LOT of her abilities being Holy based + the Fact she made the Prime Naaru, which goes with the idea of “The Naaru and their KEEPERS”, etc).

    It’s way too early for us to meet the First Ones.

  10. #470
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    No, I clearly got what you meant, and I clearly debunked it. No strawmanning here, bud.
    You debunked it only in your own mind, "bud". I'm talking about Doyle, you're talking Watson, all the while using glorified "you mad bro" tier arguments like accusing me of "wanking" to the Titans.

    You think the Titans, Elune, and their lore got ruined cause of Danuser, and I explained to you why it’s not the case.
    Nope, you regurgitated the nu-lore, pretended no retcons happened in the process, ignored the very obvious copying Danuser and pals have done, as well as their openly stated disdain for the old lore. You attacked me personally because you have no real arguments.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  11. #471
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    You debunked it only in your own mind, "bud". I'm talking about Doyle, you're talking Watson, all the while using glorified "you mad bro" tier arguments like accusing me of "wanking" to the Titans.

    Nope, you regurgitated the nu-lore, pretended no retcons happened in the process, ignored the very obvious copying Danuser and pals have done, as well as their openly stated disdain for the old lore. You attacked me personally because you have no real arguments.
    I'd love to actually hear a counter-argument from you, other than "it's shit writing", and making up shit I never did. Yes, Retcons happened, but the purpose of the Titans always the same. Never changed. Nothing changed from that. So I have no idea why you're getting so heated over Danuser and the others expanding upon the Cosmos of WoW, and basically confirming that the Titans aren't the only "divine pantheon" out there.

    - - - Updated - - -

    "You debunked it only in your own mind, "bud". I'm talking about Doyle, you're talking Watson, all the while using glorified "you mad bro" tier arguments like accusing me of "wanking" to the Titans."

    "You mad bro" arguments? Uhh, I would suggest reading what I said once more. Might actually help you a bit in constructing a better counter, bro. Lemme quote what you said verbatim


    "Because Danuser is jealous of Metzen, systematically ruining everything with bad fanfiction tier writing to supplant it with his own.

    Unfortunately for him, he has no creativity whatsoever. (Remember, the theme of SL is "X but more Xy!" First Ones, Titans but more Titany! Maldraxas, Scourge but more Scourgey! And so on.)

    Elune under Metzen was the sole confirmed deity, rarely directly intervening but spectacularly when it happened. Much like how continuity and existing lore is viewed as a constraint on the current "writers", having an actual deity would force them to answer why she doesn't intervene this time."

    I debunked this by saying the First Ones aren't at all like the Titans, and I clearly gave reasons as to why. No one is missing the "point" here, and no one is being "unoriginal". And in regards to Maldraxxus, so what? They're giving the Scourge a proper source. Not like that would be a big issue to begin with. I mean, yeah, there were some retcons, but so what? The overall narrative is still the same, but with extra addons to it. Metzen's gone through multiple retcons during WoW also. Yet the narrative remained the same.

    Regarding Elune, she can still be considered an actual Deity. It's not like the Titans weren't confirmed to be "non-deities" or some shit. Elune being the "sole deity" also may have to do with her following, since the Titans also don't really share a following (Though, I can debunk this just as much as I can prove it). And if what is hinted at with Elune is true (Such as her being among the main leaders of the Light and the creator of the Prime Naaru during the great ordering of Light and Shadow), then it's possible she can just remain a true deity anyway, since Light and Shadow are the essential forces of existence, or at least Reality...and she would be among those essential leaders.

    There are multiple ways you can keep her as a "true deity".

    And then you argued some shit about Danuser being unoriginal with ideas, and while you're not 100% wrong on that, there is no reason for him too. He and the other Lore Devs have existing info that can easily use to write in the existence of WoW's confirmed Big Bang, while also adding in "Creator Deities that made everything" into it.

    Almost like I showed you a book from Classic that first talked about those 2 implications (Both implications were used btw)...

    Oh, and to add salt to the wound, the Titans are called Gods in WoW, specifically by Khadgar (https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/In_...t_and_Shadow):

    "Dead? The titans are dead?

    <Khadgar ponders the news for a minute.>

    It explains so much, yet I cannot help but feel an overwhelming sense of sadness. We have been on our own all along.Our gods killed before we were born.

    As for the Army of the Light and Illidan, I am at a loss. I have never felt so powerless.

    Illidan is dead and the Golden Army fights an endless war in our name from across the cosmos.

    I need a moment, <name>. This is too much bad news for an old man to bear."

    Still want to act like I'm "missing the point", and that, in your eyes, they "ruined the Titans and Elune"?

    Listen, if you want to continue arguing, that's fine by me. But please actually...well...argue. You've shown no evidence proving your statements. I have.
    Last edited by TheFirstOnes; 2021-05-06 at 05:44 AM.

  12. #472
    Elune is a true goddess, just like the rest of the Shadowlands leaders. Think of gods like "the old gods", that are just material beings somewhere.

    Maybe the first ones created them all to take care of the balance of certain (and different) aspects of reality.

  13. #473
    Quote Originally Posted by javierdsv View Post
    Elune is a true goddess, just like the rest of the Shadowlands leaders. Think of gods like "the old gods", that are just material beings somewhere.

    Maybe the first ones created them all to take care of the balance of certain (and different) aspects of reality.
    I mean, considering the First Ones supposedly Architected the entire Framework of the Cosmos and are potentially the top of the line deities of WoW...

    Maybe?

  14. #474
    Dreadlord GoKs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mingarrubia View Post
    There's one other thing. We know for certain that titans have a life cycle of sorts. They're born and they can die. We know that Norgannon cast a spell to launch the Pantheon's souls into the great dark beyond just as their bodies were being destroyed by Sargeras. Maybe the same principles apply to the eternal ones from the Shadowlands.

    I'm saying this because the Winter Queen's words could also mean that she knows that Elune's physical form perished a long time ago. Maybe Zovaal was imprisoned in the first place precisely for causing Elune's demise, and the Sepulcher everyone is talking about is her final resting place. Perhaps her soul is stored safely elsewhere. It could even be the case that the soul powering the Arbiter is Elune herself.
    This seems good.

    I also think that 1 of 2 things might have happened. (Both was mentioned by other people here already.)
    1: Zovaal turned on the Eternal Ones and Elune was one of them to "die" ( I say one since we have no idea how many there are or was) and is now busy recuperating as Azeroths moon...
    2: Elune found a way out of the Shadowlands (whether she ascended or just left, I am not sure, but ascended would make more sense), that made the WQ feel abandoned, and opened a gap for Zovaal to to what ever he did to be jailed, since there was less resistance.

    I have another theory that might not be liked by many and that is, what if Azeroth is a first one, that went through a life cycle and is now being re born as a titan. We have no indication of how the First Ones came to be and how long it took for them to shape all that they did. Maybe they were titans and after many millennia ascended to a higher level giving them the power to do what they did. After all Azeroth is/or will be the most powerful titan once she is fully grown (I think I read it some where that she would be able to overthrow the voidlords by herself once fully grown).
    We know Zovaal wants to get Azeroths power for himself to reshape everything the way he wants, and that adds to my theory that Azeroth might be a first one who has the power and the knowledge to do just that. I believe that Elune is aware of what Azeroth is and is keeping a watchful eye on her and would have intervened if we could not stop Sargeras.

    I would also like to think that Korthia was the zone that Elune used to watch over like the WQ is with Ardenweald.

    Just my theory, dont flame.

  15. #475
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    It really isn't hard to think Eonar at all. Hell, I thought it could've been Eonar, and I've been a lore geek for awhile now. And don't be so damn condescending, it's weird.
    You have a picture of the wow cosmology chart as your photo, I'm pretty sure you know more about the lore than most of the people playing the game, like me lol I'm not being condescending! Wow is also aimed at younger audiences, and every time we get all excited coming up with complicated plots we are always disappointed by what it ends up being. (i.e. Sylvanas' whole story, the tree burning, BfA plot, the conspiracy theory that Calia is Talia's mom and she is the lost child spoken of by the Scarlet Crusade even though they are talking about a boy, etc.)

  16. #476
    Now for theories of Azerroth.
    Death and Life are not enemies.
    Elune can give both light and shadow at the same time to his priestesses. Therefore Elune has no problem handling light and shadow at the same time. They are not necessarily enemies either.


    And if Elune is teaching Azeeroth that this whole war of the elemental forces is stupid.

  17. #477
    Quote Originally Posted by musicallittle1 View Post
    You have a picture of the wow cosmology chart as your photo, I'm pretty sure you know more about the lore than most of the people playing the game, like me lol I'm not being condescending! Wow is also aimed at younger audiences, and every time we get all excited coming up with complicated plots we are always disappointed by what it ends up being. (i.e. Sylvanas' whole story, the tree burning, BfA plot, the conspiracy theory that Calia is Talia's mom and she is the lost child spoken of by the Scarlet Crusade even though they are talking about a boy, etc.)
    Tbf here, a lot of the lore feels a bit rushed. Legion was technically 2 expansion plots in 1 (Legion invasion + Argus and Space), and BFA's been 3 expansion plots in 1 (Black Empire, South Seas, and Alliance Vs Horde). SL's been a bit...quick too? But at least, like with Legion, it's focused on 1 conflict, such as the Jailer trying to destroy the balance between Life and Death, etc.

    Also, the WoW Cosmology chart is kinda basic. I only have it as my PFP to fit with the idea that this is the Titan's idea of the framework the First Ones created for the WoW Cosmos. Also, I won't lie to you, what you say still seems condescending due to the fact you're flexing of "knowing more lore than most", when it's really nothing to flex about. Nor is it that complicated of lore.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    Now for theories of Azerroth.
    Death and Life are not enemies.
    Elune can give both light and shadow at the same time to his priestesses. Therefore Elune has no problem handling light and shadow at the same time. They are not necessarily enemies either.


    And if Elune is teaching Azeeroth that this whole war of the elemental forces is stupid.
    We don't know what Elune truly is. I'd assume she was an Eternal One who went rogue, and decided to join up with the Pantheon of Light when the Cosmos was young. But, that's just my theory.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by GoKs View Post
    This seems good.

    I also think that 1 of 2 things might have happened. (Both was mentioned by other people here already.)
    1: Zovaal turned on the Eternal Ones and Elune was one of them to "die" ( I say one since we have no idea how many there are or was) and is now busy recuperating as Azeroths moon...
    2: Elune found a way out of the Shadowlands (whether she ascended or just left, I am not sure, but ascended would make more sense), that made the WQ feel abandoned, and opened a gap for Zovaal to to what ever he did to be jailed, since there was less resistance.

    I have another theory that might not be liked by many and that is, what if Azeroth is a first one, that went through a life cycle and is now being re born as a titan. We have no indication of how the First Ones came to be and how long it took for them to shape all that they did. Maybe they were titans and after many millennia ascended to a higher level giving them the power to do what they did. After all Azeroth is/or will be the most powerful titan once she is fully grown (I think I read it some where that she would be able to overthrow the voidlords by herself once fully grown).
    We know Zovaal wants to get Azeroths power for himself to reshape everything the way he wants, and that adds to my theory that Azeroth might be a first one who has the power and the knowledge to do just that. I believe that Elune is aware of what Azeroth is and is keeping a watchful eye on her and would have intervened if we could not stop Sargeras.

    I would also like to think that Korthia was the zone that Elune used to watch over like the WQ is with Ardenweald.

    Just my theory, dont flame.
    I have this 1 theory, yet I feel like a dipshit if I actually think this: What if Zovaal and Elune were like lovers or somethin? Nah, I'm playing lol.

    I do agree a bit with those 2 theories of yours tho. Idk about the last part of Theory 2, but still...
    Last edited by TheFirstOnes; 2021-05-06 at 12:47 PM.

  18. #478
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    We don't know what Elune truly is. I'd assume she was an Eternal One who went rogue, and decided to join up with the Pantheon of Light when the Cosmos was young. But, that's just my theory.
    Neither theory contradicts the other.

  19. #479
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    Neither theory contradicts the other.
    That's cool and all...

    But I never argued they did.

  20. #480
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    Also, I won't lie to you, what you say still seems condescending due to the fact you're flexing of "knowing more lore than most", when it's really nothing to flex about. Nor is it that complicated of lore.
    Ah, sorry, not what I meant to imply at all! I know absolute jackcrap about WoW lore. I just meant I am exposed somewhat to fan sites, so I know more than my husband, who only knows what is in game. And he doesn't read everything, he mostly just kills things. My kids play the TCG so they know who Elune is, but not Eonar. Hubby can identify Elune due to playing a night elf, but not Eonar. That was my only point, that most players only have a surface level exposure to the backstory, and I think sometimes people forget that and make overly complicated guesses about future reveals.

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