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  1. #341
    The Winter Queen is nature’s based, yeah. But only Nature in its waning state. We also know that Ardenweald is connected to the Realms of Life and that the Emerald Dream in its truest form is the opposite of Ardenweald, and also represents life in its waxing state. This is one of my biggest beliefs as to why Elune maybe is more Life aligned that Light. But also she does wield the Light a ton, yes. In a way, so does the WQ kinda.

  2. #342
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    The Winter Queen is nature’s based, yeah. But only Nature in its waning state. We also know that Ardenweald is connected to the Realms of Life and that the Emerald Dream in its truest form is the opposite of Ardenweald, and also represents life in its waxing state. This is one of my biggest beliefs as to why Elune maybe is more Life aligned that Light. But also she does wield the Light a ton, yes. In a way, so does the WQ kinda.
    The emerald dream is a Titan based thing though which would put Eonar as the winter queen opposite not elune.

  3. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    Ion explains they’re analogous with eachother in cosmic power, not just mere role.
    Analogous does not mean that they are on the same power level. It means they have similar powers relative to their surroundings. Which, given the indication that at least some of them are responsible for the very existence of their respective realms, is a given.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    The emerald dream is a Titan based thing though which would put Eonar as the winter queen opposite not elune.
    Titan based, Titan affected, or maybe even just Titan colonised. We don't know which it is for certain.

  4. #344
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Titan based, Titan affected, or maybe even just Titan colonised. We don't know which it is for certain.
    We know for certain that they made it baring any future retcons.

  5. #345
    It is starting to look like Elune's history began with her being an Eternal One lording over the realm of Korthia. Then, during the Shadowlands civil war of Zovaal vs. everyone else, Elune fucked off to reality to play Earthmother to Azeroth. Azeroth is the 'First One's Secret' so Elune may have been motivated to protect Azeroth for some reason.

  6. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    The emerald dream is a Titan based thing though which would put Eonar as the winter queen opposite not elune.
    Well then it totally sucks that they’re not Sisters, huh? Also, that’s not really true about the Emerald Dream, or at least not unless you wanna use the words of the Chronicle as the Word of God. Seems like the dream that we know of as a blueprint of Azeroth and a means of contacting the nascent Titan was more so taken and created from a realm beyond that. Which would make sense, if Eonar had connections with Elune and learned her Life Binder shit from her.

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    Also funny how Eonar and the WQ share almost no similarities outside of a legendary in the Wild Hunt and seeming connections to Elune. Both are nature based, but to what extent, and why would the WQ not mention or hint at Eonar once if they were polar opposites or were at the very least connected with one another? Mhm

  7. #347
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    Well then it totally sucks that they’re not Sisters, huh? Also, that’s not really true about the Emerald Dream, or at least not unless you wanna use the words of the Chronicle as the Word of God. Seems like the dream that we know of as a blueprint of Azeroth and a means of contacting the nascent Titan was more so taken and created from a realm beyond that. Which would make sense, if Eonar had connections with Elune and learned her Life Binder shit from her.

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    Also funny how Eonar and the WQ share almost no similarities outside of a legendary in the Wild Hunt and seeming connections to Elune. Both are nature based, but to what extent, and why would the WQ not mention or hint at Eonar once if they were polar opposites or were at the very least connected with one another? Mhm
    The jailer is also there brother them being sisters doesn’t mean there two sides of a a nature based coin or even that they’d have similar magic alignments.

    Chronicles is yes also the word of god from all things the Titans know about, and given that it says they made it the emerald dream has no ties to elune.

  8. #348
    Wasn't it stated somewhere more recently that Freya pulled the Emerald Dream from somewhere and that she didn't created it, just set it up on Azeroth?
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    Alleria's whispers start climaxing

  9. #349
    Why the hell are people still talking about Eonar lol

  10. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    Wasn't it stated somewhere more recently that Freya pulled the Emerald Dream from somewhere and that she didn't created it, just set it up on Azeroth?
    It's mentioned in Chronicle Vol. 1 that there was unclearness as to whether Freya created the Emerald Dream or simply found the realm and ordered it into what we know recognize as the Emerald Dream.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  11. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    The emerald dream is a Titan based thing though which would put Eonar as the winter queen opposite not elune.
    ???
    Eonar has jackshit to do with the EDs creation (at least not with the realm we know and speak of when we refer to the ED).

    It was titan keeper Freya that shaped that place, and the chronicle kept it very intentionally vague as to whether she created it entirely on her own or if she simply ordered something that already existed.


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  12. #352
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    ???
    Eonar has jackshit to do with the EDs creation (at least not with the realm we know and speak of when we refer to the ED).

    It was titan keeper Freya that shaped that place, and the chronicle kept it very intentionally vague as to whether she created it entirely on her own or if she simply ordered something that already existed.
    Chronicles literally says they forged it I wouldn’t say that’s very vague unless we’re splitting hairs and want to say we don’t know if any one actually made anything ever.

    Id also say it’s arguable that the keepers are extensions of the Titans early on given that they were following the Titans orders in the early stages of Azeroth before they bugged off and got beat up by sargaras and the Titans even told the green dragons to watch over it.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2021-05-01 at 04:56 PM.

  13. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Yes, you missed the part where it wasn't at all confirmed back then who she was referring to and many people took it to mean Eonar, with some even suggesting Lady Moonberry.
    You had to be very unfamiliar with the lore to think the sister is someone else but Elune. Eonar is so far fetched and Moonberry needs no comment.

  14. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    Chronicles literally says they forged it I wouldn’t say that’s very vague unless we’re splitting hairs and want to say we don’t know if any one actually made anything ever.
    Quote Originally Posted by chronicle vol.1, p.39 "The Dreaming World"
    Some believe that Freya wove the Emerald Dream into being from nothing. Others claim that this strange place had always existed in some form, a dream born from Azeroth's slumbering world-soul. It is said that Freya tapped into this realm and molded what would become as the Emerald Dream as a way to commune with the nascent titan
    Idk about you but this not read as particularly concrete information.


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  15. #355
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    Idk about you but this not read as particularly concrete information.
    Ah I admit I forgot that further extract was in chronicles. So Mabye it was made by Azeroth then.

  16. #356
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Old Gods already had a similar moment when we learned that they were mountain-sized cancers flung at random by dudes that are functionally the same but outside reality so as to allow further expansions. The Light meanwhile is depersonalized by default - the naaru are just emanations of a power that represents certain traits and virtues and has power but doesn't have an associated deity. For now, anyway, give it a few years and we'll have Lightlords to loot.

    That Elune has a relatively small back of the woods and that she is much more vague and connected to one race and top of having miracles attributed to her that go outside the paradigm of the other powers along with the fact that the Old Gods didn't exist in WC3 whereas the naaru were 15 years ago now are reasons why her case is different. After 20 years, any reveal would be underwhelming compared to just letting the issue lie. It's not even that I dislike the Night Warrior fare by itself in Shadowlands, it's pretty servicable, Tyrande's neutering aside, but the whole reason we're in a spot where we have to make an ersatz cosmology with the First Ones as the Titans 2.0 and the Jailer as Sarg 2.0 is because we systematically massacred the entire higher tier before. Leaving some things inexplicable or out of our reach or prone to speculation improves them. Going back to the Old Gods, how many people found them more intimidating or interesting after Chronicle than before?
    I'd say their treatment in-game, especially that of N'zoth in 8.3 when he goes full mwahahaha puny mortalsss, did more harm to the Old Gods than any reveal about their origin. Them being tumors mostly dangerous because outright killing them would harm the planet (except when we adventurers do it) has been consistent since Wrath if memory serves. Making them servants in and of itself isn't bad, guys KJ, Gul'dan, Deathwing or Archimonde were servants since their inception after all and fearsome until badly done, with the exception of Gul'dan.

    I have no arguments regarding the second parapgraph tho, and it's my only real lore issue with Shadowlands. Jailer is Lich King but Lich Kingier with a dash of Sargeras, Maldraxxus is Scourge but Scourgier, First Ones are Titans but more Titanic, Brokers are Ethereals but Etherealers, Kyrian are Val'kyr but Val'kyrier, so on and so forth. So much of it seems repackaged, it's why Revendreth is my favorite zone since most of it feels new (aside from the gist of its plot being Suramar 2.0 AKA BEs 3.0) and the developments around the Nathrezim and Denathrius are interesting enough to make the retcons around them broadly acceptable.

    That said, speculation can only last for so long before becoming stale. I'd personally have made Elune more active, but via indirect ways, maybe by forcibly speaking through Tyrande as part of the Night Warrior or something, instead of making said Night Warrior yet another dark side corruption that is shaken off to return the character to factory default settings.
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  17. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by Trumpcat View Post
    You had to be very unfamiliar with the lore to think the sister is someone else but Elune. Eonar is so far fetched and Moonberry needs no comment.
    It made sense for Freya to be the sister, to me, because I found the Titan Keepers and the Eternal Ones to be pretty equal in terms of power and hierarchy in their respective pantheons. The Titan Keepers like Odyn, Thorim, Mimiron, Freya, etc. are all about the same size and strength as an Eternal One, were handmade by a higher order of Gods (the Titans themselves, and the First Ones, respectively) and in the case of Odyn and Freya, were capable of creating unique afterlife dimensions of their own.

    Given that there was an intrinsic connection between the Emerald Dream and Ardenweald it made sense for an Eonar-powered Freya (who created the Dream) to be considered a Sister to the Winter Queen (who created Ardenweald).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I'd say their treatment in-game, especially that of N'zoth in 8.3 when he goes full mwahahaha puny mortalsss, did more harm to the Old Gods than any reveal about their origin. Them being tumors mostly dangerous because outright killing them would harm the planet (except when we adventurers do it) has been consistent since Wrath if memory serves. Making them servants in and of itself isn't bad, guys KJ, Gul'dan, Deathwing or Archimonde were servants since their inception after all and fearsome until badly done, with the exception of Gul'dan.

    I have no arguments regarding the second parapgraph tho, and it's my only real lore issue with Shadowlands. Jailer is Lich King but Lich Kingier with a dash of Sargeras, Maldraxxus is Scourge but Scourgier, First Ones are Titans but more Titanic, Brokers are Ethereals but Etherealers, Kyrian are Val'kyr but Val'kyrier, so on and so forth. So much of it seems repackaged, it's why Revendreth is my favorite zone since most of it feels new (aside from the gist of its plot being Suramar 2.0 AKA BEs 3.0) and the developments around the Nathrezim and Denathrius are interesting enough to make the retcons around them broadly acceptable.

    That said, speculation can only last for so long before becoming stale. I'd personally have made Elune more active, but via indirect ways, maybe by forcibly speaking through Tyrande as part of the Night Warrior or something, instead of making said Night Warrior yet another dark side corruption that is shaken off to return the character to factory default settings.
    Hard to make Elune an active character in the plot when her core source material describes her as a goddess of inaction even in cases where her intervention would be game-changing. Elune as anything more than an invisible guiding hand would be a massive retcon.

  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    Chronicles literally says they forged it I wouldn’t say that’s very vague unless we’re splitting hairs and want to say we don’t know if any one actually made anything ever.

    Id also say it’s arguable that the keepers are extensions of the Titans early on given that they were following the Titans orders in the early stages of Azeroth before they bugged off and got beat up by sargaras and the Titans even told the green dragons to watch over it.
    No. Was only said it was rumored to be forged by the Keeper Freya. It was then stated that it was likely pulled from somewhere else and that the portion taken was used as Azeroth's blueprint/dream thingy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    Ah I admit I forgot that further extract was in chronicles. So Mabye it was made by Azeroth then.
    Yeah, it was stated to be a dream born from the world soul. Interviews also hint at something more too. So, idk

  19. #359
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    We know for certain that they made it baring any future retcons.
    I fail to see what your link has to do with it. There's no word about its origins in there.

  20. #360
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I'd say their treatment in-game, especially that of N'zoth in 8.3 when he goes full mwahahaha puny mortalsss, did more harm to the Old Gods than any reveal about their origin. Them being tumors mostly dangerous because outright killing them would harm the planet (except when we adventurers do it) has been consistent since Wrath if memory serves. Making them servants in and of itself isn't bad, guys KJ, Gul'dan, Deathwing or Archimonde were servants since their inception after all and fearsome until badly done, with the exception of Gul'dan.

    I have no arguments regarding the second parapgraph tho, and it's my only real lore issue with Shadowlands. Jailer is Lich King but Lich Kingier with a dash of Sargeras, Maldraxxus is Scourge but Scourgier, First Ones are Titans but more Titanic, Brokers are Ethereals but Etherealers, Kyrian are Val'kyr but Val'kyrier, so on and so forth. So much of it seems repackaged, it's why Revendreth is my favorite zone since most of it feels new (aside from the gist of its plot being Suramar 2.0 AKA BEs 3.0) and the developments around the Nathrezim and Denathrius are interesting enough to make the retcons around them broadly acceptable.

    That said, speculation can only last for so long before becoming stale. I'd personally have made Elune more active, but via indirect ways, maybe by forcibly speaking through Tyrande as part of the Night Warrior or something, instead of making said Night Warrior yet another dark side corruption that is shaken off to return the character to factory default settings.
    Oh dearie me it's time to brush off the corruption wheel of fortune

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