Torghast 9.1

[ippollite]

The current Torghast IS easy if the player behind the character is just remotely good with 200+ gear. I do not know the new scaling, that's why I asked if there is something different in 9.1. You could me give any class/spec with 200 and I'd clear you (the current) L8 deathless, it doesn't matter for me(!) - I know almost everything about every spec in this game, but this is not the case for most people. Regarding this, I agree with you, that one can't simply say "lol torghast ez". There are some specs that got a harder time, that's a fact, but it's still doable with any of them.

Tali died. 4 times (this is almost the current allowed death-cap). I do expect that blizz is hitting the "no, you can't pass" button when you died - 1 death is fine imo, but more than 1 death in an easier layer than the following would be.. No, I completely agree if this is blizzard intend to block people out of higher layers for dying. We still do not know if this is really the case, we will see in the following days/weeks.

As far as blizzard gave us informations, you can either do it slowly and clear everything, or go ham and run through it. You rogue should(!) be fine going for 4 stars.

All we can do right now is guessing, and I guess that:
5 Stars: clear everything/most of a floor fast, no deaths
4 Stars: clear everything slowly OR do a fast run, no deaths/maybe 1 death if going fast fullclear
3 Stars: not clearing everything, not thaat fast, 1 death
less stars aren't interesting enough for me to think about it

Thats genuinely comforting.

But its super important that blizzard dont just chuck a bar at people and say 'see that line at 67%, try stay above it!'. They should perhaps explain their system and set expectations if they want to prevent a riot. Honestly, you seem incredibly reasonable and fair. My worry is genuinely that i cant just pick and choose my moment to engage (as a sin rogue, for whom mass aoe (at level) is a dice roll) and i have to chain pull (chain pulling literally made me hate torghast for a period with those damn dogs that were a mild inconvenience to players in 200ilvl gear, but to my rogue at 160 at the time were a deeps sponge/race against time (my smaller deeps output and their higher health)).

We need much more information on score, the opp cost of degradation, and the absolute cost of deaths. I am happy to agree that tali was at 2-3 stars. I am happy to accept that with 4 deaths he was at zero stars. But i need to know and understand why he was at zero stars so i can strategise appropriately. Feedback (from blizz) would let us know how to improve. No feedback and an arbitrary scoring system where we need to hypothesize a best fit is meaningless. Did i not pull fast enough? Did i die too much? Am i just undergeared? Should i invest in my talents? (obviously you should always invest in your talents? Which ones according to your playstyle?). We need more info than a line in a bar.

[Crimson Spears]

Thats genuinely comforting.

But its super important that blizzard dont just chuck a bar at people and say 'see that line at 67%, try stay above it!'. They should perhaps explain their system and set expectations if they want to prevent a riot. Honestly, you seem incredibly reasonable and fair. My worry is genuinely that i cant just pick and choose my moment to engage (as a sin rogue, for whom mass aoe (at level) is a dice roll) and i have to chain pull (chain pulling literally made me hate torghast for a period with those damn dogs that were a mild inconvenience to players in 200ilvl gear, but to my rogue at 160 at the time were a deeps sponge/race against time (my smaller deeps output and their higher health)).

We need much more information on score, the opp cost of degradation, and the absolute cost of deaths. I am happy to agree that tali was at 2-3 stars. I am happy to accept that with 4 deaths he was at zero stars. But i need to know and understand why he was at zero stars so i can strategise appropriately. Feedback (from blizz) would let us know how to improve. No feedback and an arbitrary scoring system where we need to hypothesize a best fit is meaningless. Did i not pull fast enough? Did i die too much? Am i just undergeared? Should i invest in my talents? (obviously you should always invest in your talents? Which ones according to your playstyle?). We need more info than a line in a bar.

That isn't how ptr is currently working but how the interview said it would. From the looks of it you have to keep "streaking" to get a five star score. Without grinding out "lore" you can't keep the bar high enough to streak. They are still balancing it but I would expect a few weeks of grinding to clear torghast 5 star without a group.

[Bloodyleech]

Snip

Regarding your rogue - the timer on dog/assa spawns got nerfed quite a bit, you do not have to engage in combat all the time anymore. Will not be relevant now, but well, just saying. When Torghast was new and we were still gearing up, this was a different thing, but these days you do not have to really rush it after all these nerfs. Those debuffs will disapper in 9.1, with no new "spawn" debuffs coming back, that's a good thing imo. Meaning, one could really do the "save" play and just clear everything (ofc in a reasonable time) without having to go completely ham.

Blizzard wanted to implement a score-screen - this isn't available right now? This should have many informations if they will implement it in a good way, but we know blizzard, right?
Feedback is indeed needed - they should make the conditions for 3/4/5 stars/dying open to everyone.

Could look like this
"
Cleared enemies XX/total - YY points
Destroyed urnes XX/total - YY points
Helped prisoners XX/total - YY points
Time for clear XX/gold time/silver time/bronze time (whatever ) - YY points
Deaths XX - -ZZ points
...
"

[ippollite]

Yes! This! Blizzard! This! Please just do this. Give clear, direct feedback. Itd even make me think about my gear and chase it. Its a self rewarding/engagement loop!

[Bloodyleech]

Yes! This! Blizzard! This! Please just do this. Give clear, direct feedback. Itd even make me think about my gear and chase it. Its a self rewarding/engagement loop!

Other games have scorescreens like this too, should not be very hard to implement by such a huge company. I'm pretty sure that someone will have to make an addon, just for blizzard to implement this addon in whatever months/years...

[ippollite]

That isn't how ptr is currently working but how the interview said it would. From the looks of it you have to keep "streaking" to get a five star score. Without grinding out "lore" you can't keep the bar high enough to streak. They are still balancing it but I would expect a few weeks of grinding to clear torghast 5 star without a group.

You are absolutely right. Thats how they think. But bloodyleach's focused feedback... its so much better, right? It tells you where you messed up. It tells you what you need to do to progress. It gives you something to progress and work on. It gives you clear, direct objectives you need to hit. It tells you 'go fix this first, then come back!'. Its so much better than what they currently have. I would WANT to engage with bloodleach's system. I would be so exhausted and frustrated with the current info as its displayed (did i go too slow, did i not clear enough? What did i do wrong? I chain pulled?! should i not have chained pulled? But that bar degraded so fast! Is this a speed run?).

- - - Updated - - -

Other games have scorescreens like this too, should not be very hard to implement by such a huge company. I'm pretty sure that someone will have to make an addon, just for blizzard to implement this addon in whatever months/years...

I genuinely hope someone in blizzard is watching this thread in their downtime and going 'of course! why didnt we just do that! how absurd that we thought conveying no information would actually encourage players to engage with the system! All we need to do is tell them how close they are to achieving their goals and they'll feel inspired to go just that tiny step further and succeed/progress!'

[Crimson Spears]

You are absolutely right. Thats how they think. But bloodyleach's focused feedback... its so much better, right? It tells you where you messed up. It tells you what you need to do to progress. It gives you something to progress and work on. It gives you clear, direct objectives you need to hit. It tells you 'go fix this first, then come back!'. Its so much better than what they currently have. I would WANT to engage with bloodleach's system. I would be so exhausted and frustrated with the current info as its displayed.

Let me tell you a story of the fall of the casual mythic raider.

My people's tale is a sad one. All the casual mythic raider wanted to do was start an expansion spend a week playing heavily to gear up then quietly raid log never harming anyone or anything, maybe do a night of farming here and there.

I was happy then at peace... I still remember the day the hardcore bads came. They screamed " I PLAY FOR EIGHTLY HOURS A WEEK AND GET NO UPGRADES I PAYZ MY SUB!" using their dark moaning and crying AP was unleashed upon us. I fled to a raid server taking those I could with me but many more quit when the pointless mindless grinds started.

Even there though what sanctuary we found was fleeting as the mindless bads screamed that not every piece of content was instantly clearable and infinitely rewarding at the same time.

Now they have claimed torghast and the bads are a greedy and jealous creature. Once they hold dominion over content they will never surrender it.

Still not all hope is lost. A last alliance between casual and hardcore mythic players sets forth to sell bads carries at absurd prices only to then in turn add their names to a list to be forever black listed from any of the guilds they are trying to buy their way into. With them hope remains for now.

[ippollite]

I LOVE how you started this. Im literally engaged and invested... i havent yet read through your second paragraph as i type this. I just wanted you to know, i love your opener.

I pegged you wrong. You didnt give me a story about how you self-motivated yourself to be awesome. You just said 'Players (including me) are idiots and couldnt design a macaroni picture even with a macaroni by numbers template'. You have my respect.

[Kokolums]

you know, i solved the grindiness of MMOs over a decade ago. they just refuse to implement it. what you want is "jackpot" mobs and goals. for example, a world boss that evolves over time. the longer it goes without being killed, the more rewarding it is to kill (and the more powerful the boss might get). that creates a slew of interesting dynamics, strategies, and planning and makes it no longer feel grindy. you can set up torghast to have such things as well. just sayin'

[Azerate]

On the other hand, Preach seemed to easily get all the stars in layer 9 or whatever it was in his video. I don't know, all these Torghast changes don't seem to be going in the direction I anticipated. I think I might actually miss the 9.0 Torghast when all that stuff goes live.

[Wuusah]

Well, all you get from the stars are those talent points and you unlock higher layers. If he died multiple times in his run, then that's a clear sign that he's not ready for the next layer. Soul Ash is a guaranteed drop, even at the lowest star rating.

Seems like the system is working as intended. If it's too hard for you, then it will be even harder for you in the next layer. Grind some more on this or the previous layer, get those talent points, unlock some traits in the talent tree and then it will be easier and will let you tackle the higher layer again. That's called progression. Wiping your way through a layer and then expecting to unlock the next layer where you'll wipe your way through... What kind of degenerate gameplay would that be? Something Blizzard shouldn't reward.

[Gaidax]

But if they do force you to pay such a price (lets call it half a star) and you need a full completion run (4 stars pre 8 and 5 stars thereafter), thats... well, rationally, one death and you're out, right? Isnt this gonna be the same exact complaint we saw with players hitting the final boss and dying?. We seem to be going in circles in terms of wow GD meltdown issues. Can you even imagine it? "I got to level 4 but your dumb game seems to force me to make huge pulls just to keep that bar and my score up, and then i died... once! And now i have to do this bs again!"

I mean, depends on what exactly you want there.

If we follow Visions model, failing run while still completing all side objectives would still give you the most payout. Same here, if you 3 star it, but get most (or even all) of the "mega soul ash" or whatever they call it, then what's the problem?

For all we know the full star runs might just be a vanity thing, while 2-3 stars would suffice for for getting the most out of it. Which is the angle Ion was pushing for in the interview - part of the reason they did it.

[huth]

I mean, depends on what exactly you want there.

If we follow Visions model, failing run while still completing all side objectives would still give you the most payout. Same here, if you 3 star it, but get most (or even all) of the "mega soul ash" or whatever they call it, then what's the problem?

For all we know the full star runs might just be a vanity thing, while 2-3 stars would suffice for for getting the most out of it. Which is the angle Ion was pushing for in the interview - part of the reason they did it.

If i understood that correctly, you pretty much always get your (Mega) Ash, only knowledge is performance based. Unless you really just mess around and don't really do anything remotely productive, in which case i'd agree that you don't deserve any rewards.

[darklogrus]

On the other hand, Preach seemed to easily get all the stars in layer 9 or whatever it was in his video. I don't know, all these Torghast changes don't seem to be going in the direction I anticipated. I think I might actually miss the 9.0 Torghast when all that stuff goes live.

226ilvl in BIS gear that probably has some bought sockets along with being a pet class might have had a hand in his performance. I dunno though, I Only saw 2 Gems on my first try. I killed all enemies minus 2 elites, cleared all souls and pots, killed all rares, did the quest, explored all areas and never died.

To me it seems like I actually did what Ion wanted me to do an with the slower paced route but the bar never broke the min requirments. So far it seemed like everything outside of killing big time mobs did nothing. Im going to chalk it up to being the first pass at the new systems and I will give phase 2 another try.

I will say if this is what Blizzard is going for, its going to fail harder then 9.0's release version. Affixes, Timers, failing a completed run.

Edit: My run was done with a 208ilvl toon..

[Nerph-]

On the other hand, Preach seemed to easily get all the stars in layer 9 or whatever it was in his video. I don't know, all these Torghast changes don't seem to be going in the direction I anticipated. I think I might actually miss the 9.0 Torghast when all that stuff goes live.

Never thought I'd say it but I agree, I'll miss 9.0 Torghast when this Torghast+ or whatever the fuck it is goes live.

[Crimson Spears]

Never thought I'd say it but I agree, I'll miss 9.0 Torghast when this Torghast+ or whatever the fuck it is goes live.

I sometimes wonder if that is blizzards masterstroke plan. Simply make forever decaying content so former bad content looks more appealing in hindsight. I mean when comparing islands to torghast at least you got some neat transmog from islands.

[Nyel]

I haven’t caught up on the Torghast changes because I hate Torghast, so can someone summarize what’s coming in 9.1? It sounds... worse than 9.0 Torghast? Is that possible?

[darklogrus]

I haven’t caught up on the Torghast changes because I hate Torghast, so can someone summarize what’s coming in 9.1? It sounds... worse than 9.0 Torghast? Is that possible?

To start they did away with the death counter. Right now their is 5 floors instead of 6 and the new 6th floor is a bonus. They are adding in a timer that will unlock floor 6 and a point system that will unlock the next layer if you 5 star it. We now have affixes to annoy you even further with the higher you go the more you get and what seems like a talent tree system ( later date ) to make Torghast easier.

[Nyel]

To start they did away with the death counter. Right now their is 5 floors instead of 6 and the new 6th floor is a bonus. They are adding in a timer that will unlock floor 6 and a point system that will unlock the next layer if you 5 star it. We now have affixes to annoy you even further with the higher you go the more you get and what seems like a talent tree system ( later date ) to make Torghast easier.

And the only reward for all of that is still just Soul Ash?

[huth]

And the only reward for all of that is still just Soul Ash?

Yes, however the requirement for Soul Ash is lower than before. Unless you really just don't bother you should always get your Ash even if you do poorly. Essentially, it's now a participation reward, with trying to get high scores mostly being for those that actually like Torghast.

You also only need 4 Stars for the next floor.

Lastly, there's a permanent upgrade system similar to Visions and Chromie's that'll make things easier over time.