View Poll Results: Who do you think really "won" the Fourth War?

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201. You may not vote on this poll
  • The Horde won the Fourth War

    30 14.93%
  • The Alliance won the Fourth War

    108 53.73%
  • Other / Not sure / Neither side really won the Fourth War

    63 31.34%
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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Caerule View Post
    I could mention the Siege of Dazar'alor, but I'll call that one a tie, as the Alliance may technically have won, but gained nothing but death.
    There's not a lot 'technically' about it. They obliterated the navy and successfully killed their leader, not counting the rest of the damage to the city itself, including it's treasure vault.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by tromage2 View Post
    Horde died with Garrosh.

    And what ever we had in the fourth war lets call it the traitor alliance also lost on every border.
    The only good thing right now is that blizzard has no beloved Horde members anymore to kill since they are all alrdy dead so now they can only get to Baine, Thrall and the other traitors to kill or turn them into villians.
    It died the moment thrall made Garrosh warchief.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisibility View Post
    It is confirmed by Blizzard that Alliance has won the fourth war.
    not it wasnt...
    one of devs said alliance won BFA which can mean they get cooler stuff or they lorewise won the warfronts or whatever
    the war ended with armistice, which means NOBODY won, armistice is a bilateral deal to end the combat, no winner, no looser

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    war ended with armistice, which means NOBODY won...
    thats not up to debate, thats a goddamn fact which we know from the game itself...
    Last edited by Lolites; 2021-05-07 at 10:50 AM.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    This another point about WoW's writing in recent years that is bullocks.
    Which is why you went out to "prove" that with a bogus point after bogus point


    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    There is no world in which the Alliance "run out of manpower" before the Horde does. Most of the Alliance is made of up kingdoms that possess dense city populations supported by vast swathes of farmlands. Stormwind, Kul'Tiras, the Bronzebeards, the Wildhammers, the Dark Iron Dwarves (farming on soil in the Burning Steppes enriched by the volcanic ash), the Gnomergan and Mechagon gnomes, and the Night Elves.
    We know squat about WoW populations, so you pulled the claim that Alliance's city population are dense out of the nether. And it's telling that when it comes to the Horde you're pointing out how this or that race has only a few farms, whereas when it comes to Dark Iron Dwarves your tune magically changes to "supported by vast swathes of farmlands" that we've somehow never seen. On top of that, almost all of the Alliance factions you mentioned above have been thoroughly decimated in recent years. You're counting such events when covering the Horde, but when it comes to the Alliance you mysteriously turn hush hush about the subject. Even though Gnomereggan lost 80% of its population thanks to Mekkatorque. Alliance Mechagon faction was a small uprising against the mecha-supremacist king that just fought a civil war against him. Dark Iron Dwarves got shafted thanks to their subservience to Ragnaros. Kul'Tiras was swarmed by both outside and internal enemies. And Stormwing has been decimated three times in less than a century, to the point they had to outright flee their own territory the last time.


    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    The Orcs were just a group of tribes that were united by Blackhand, and then the majority were killed off or died to starvation during the First and Second Wars. By WC3 the Orcs only had a few villages spread throughout the EK and Kalimdor and a few thousand people in concentration camps, with farming only just recently beginning to be practiced in Orgrimmar (and even then, Durotar is ill suited for farming. Seems they rely more on raising cattle and pigs).
    That "group of tribes" dominated everyone on Draenor and then steamrolled the Alliance until it broke down to infighting. Except it's not even the entire Horde that did the latter, as whole clans stayed behind on Draenor, because the Horde forces on Azeroth were essentially a vanguard. And even then Alliance only managed to turn the tide after Gul'dan took a boatload of Azerothian Horde forces to Tomb of Sargeras and Orgrim sent even more forces away after him to punish his treason. And the claims that "majority were killed off or died to starvation" is something you simply made up. On top of that, the Orcs in internment camps alone (and there were entire clans that eluded capture) were numerous enough that Blackmoore planned to overthrow the Alliance in them. And in the AU where he stopped being a drunkard, he succeeded at just that. For god's sake, the Alliance still viewed the Orcs as a threat at the start of W3, when most of them were lethargic and imprisoned. And a handful of pro-Garrosh Orcs were still strong enough for the Alliance to team up with the Darkspear Rebellion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    The Tauren were just a few thousand in number, on the brink of being completely wiped out by the Centaurs. Their small tent city is supported by hunting-gathering.
    Ah, yes. The classic "lemme project what Cairne was saying about his own tribe onto all Tauren".


    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    As for the Forsaken, Arthas took most of the Scourge to Northrend, and of those remaining in the EK, only a fraction of them broke free with Sylvanas. And the Forsaken only ever had 3 Valkyr who could only really raised humans and elves, with almost all bodies having to have died within the past 10 years or less to be raised (we don't see anyone from the Anduin Lothar's time being raised, after all). So the Forsaken's replenishment rate is abysmal. 3 Valkyr raising nonstop can't outcompete the birthrate of a small countryside of farms (as in the Alliance). And the 3 Valkyr are killed off one by beginning with the end of Wrath.
    The claim that Arthas took most of the Scourge to Northrend is yet another thing you made up. Arthas took nearly nothing to Northrend and had to rely on Anub'Arak's local forces. The Scourge stayed behind in Lordaeron. And as per in-game books, half of the Scourge forces in Lordaeron eventually broke away as Forsaken. The same goes to your nonsense about Forsaken and their resurrection. There's nothing supporting the claim that the bodies they raise have to have died within the past 10 years or less. There's pretty much no source of new living to be buried at the Forsaken-controlled graveyards. The bodies there are pretty much bound to be on the older side. And their replenishment rate is so abysmal that this one tiny-ass graveyard (operated by thee Val'kyr no less) was producing hundreds of new Forsaken daily. So your claim that the Forsaken can't outcompete the birthrate of an Alliance nation is, continuing the trend here, something you made up and what is not only not supported by the lore, it's flat out contradicted by it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Silvermoon: Didn't like 98% of the population die? Burning Crusade constantly makes a big deal how their race is on the verge of annihilation. If you play a Blood Elf, you are in the top 1%. BC took place in the year 26, which is 7 years before the present day, so even if the Blood Elves repopulated like crazy, the baby boom wouldn't have produced any men of fighting age yet.
    You can't even get something as basic how many Blood Elves died in the war against the Scourge, yet you somehow see yourself fit to discuss topics like populations and power of various races... And given how we know squat about populations, the whole percentage bit becomes meaningless. If there were a trillion of them before the war,


    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Kezan Goblins: their home island was blown up and only those Gallywix took with him survived. They have a decently small sized town in Azshara but there is no way that their population is comparable to an Alliance kingdom.
    The claim that only those Gallywix took with him survived is yet another piece of abject BS that's flat out contradicted by the game. There's a separate bunch of Bilgewater Goblins alone that escaped to Silithus. And since you're talking about Kezan Goblins as a whole, I'll just point out we literally had a dungeon located in Kezan just last expansion.

    Also, I'll loop back to how you listed Gnomes as an example of dense populations supported by vast swathes of farmland (gotta love all dem Gnome farms), completely ignoring how they blew up 80% of their race while also getting owned by the Troggs, yet when it comes to their Horde equivalent you somehow start caring about the disasters that affected them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Huojin Pandaren: lol. To be fair, the Pandaren probably have one of the largest populations in Azeroth, if not THE largest if the parallels with China still hold up. However, Pandaria didn't join either faction, and we see in the MoP storyline that only a small handful of Pandarens volunteer to join either side. After the Horde ravaged Pandaria, recruitment rates for the Horde should be abysmal, if not nonexistant. There is no way the Alliance runs out of Pandaren volunteers before the Horde does. And Huojin Pandaren pretty much don't show up at all after MoP. Irrelevant.
    What do Huojin Pandaren have to do with Pandaren recruits from Pandaria? Those are two completely different groups. Also, the Pandaren of Pandaria represented by Taran'Zhu were pretty much against both the Horde and Alliance alike. We've only seen a village-worth of Pandaren join each faction in Jade Forest and then Kun-Lai. And that was in 5.0. So the later Alliance volunteers is yet another case of you pulling nonsense out of the nether.


    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Vulpera: again, nomadic tribes that don't practice agriculture. Insignificant in the grand scheme of things when you're talking about average Alliance population sizes. Irrelevant.
    Now let's look at all dat agriculture in Mechagon. If oil is a crop, that is. And never mind that Mechagon forces that joined the Alliance are a bunch of rebels against king Mechagon, while Horde got Vulpera with no such handicaps.


    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Mag'har Orcs: nomadic tribes that were on the verge of extinction. Irrelevant.
    Yet another unsubstantiated statement.


    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Nightborne: same situation as the Blood Elves. Vast majority of their kingdom has been killed off.
    Meanwhile their Alliance equivalent is a bunch of exiles from Silvermoon.


    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Highmountain Tauren: finally, Horde tribes that have some actual agriculture going. Probably decently sized but as discussed in another thread, their numbers still can't compare to the average size of an Alliance kingdom. Better than most Horde races but not enough.
    So your "source" to "support" the made up statement about how the Highmountain Tauren are "better than Horde tribes but still not enough" is your own post in another thread. Splendid. And what a post it is. In that post you used the thematic inspirations for each race as source of population numbers, because god knows why. Not even that, you arbitrarily chose a random point in time for your brilliant comparisons. Even though King Philip's War was by no means the first conflict between colonists and native Americans. Not to mention the part where native American population was obliterated by European diseases, which has no known equivalent in Highmountain.


    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    That leaves the Zandalari Trolls has the one and only member of the Horde that has a population that is comparable to an Alliance kingdom. Problem is... the Alliance isn't made up of 1 kingdom. It has 7 (Stormwind, Kul'Tiras, Bronzebeards, Wildhammers, Dark Iron, Mechagon, Gnomergan). And that's not counting the vast swathes of countryside such as Arathi or Alterac who are implied to be a part of the Alliance. Zandalar alone cannot carry the Horde.
    I already covered most of this, but the bit about Alterac is one more thing you made up. The most that has been said about the zone in BfA was that Alliance sent scouts to the area.


    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Everything points to Alliance forces being at least 10x the size of Horde forces. Even if every Horde soldier suddenly became an ace who could kill 9 Alliance soldiers per 1 Horde soldier, the Horde still loses. And that's not taking into account the vast technological and industrial superiority the Alliance has over the Horde. Machine guns, bombing campaigns, blockades, etc. Put really, the Alliance shouldn't really need to fight the Horde in the first place. The Alliance have the agriculture and the logistics to supply a long campaign. The Horde do not. Realistically after a few months, the Horde forces (and their people back home) should be starving.
    Meanwhile in the actual story it's only the Horde that ever engaged in successful blockades. Both sides have machine guns. And for the Alliance to engage in bombing campaigns they'd need to have air superiority. Which they do not. Most of the known destroyed gunships were Alliance. And the "at least 10x" bit is pure, unadulterated fabrication. That doesn't even make sense in the context of the story, as that super populous Alliance was forces to conscript peasants in the middle of the last war, while nothing of the sort has been mentioned for the Horde.


    The manpower bit is routinely contradicted by the story. Your claim about food is based on non-existent Mechagnome and Dark Iron farms and ignoring that Stormwind had issues with feeding its population on multiple occasions. Meanwhile one of the strongest Horde factions doesn't even need food. The supposed Alliance technological supremacy revolves around people praising the shit out of Vindicaar, even though it's biggest feat is blowing a small hole in a wall. And the issue of logistics was once again equalized by Azshara. Prior to that the Horde had an advantage in this regard on multiple occasions.


    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    The "and that's the last of soldiers. They'll be calling up farmers next" line is a frequent point of parody in the WoW lore community for a reason. If Genn actually meant that, then the Alliance isn't fighting the Horde. They're fighting a different enemy that is an actual threat.
    Which is why the only times the Alliance managed to survive a war against the Horde is when the Horde either broke into infighting (with one side even aiding the Alliance) or simply stopped fighting despite having the advantage.
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2021-05-07 at 12:23 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
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  5. #45
    Herald of the Titans Amaterasu65's Avatar
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    The Alliance won the war but lost the most in the same time. They retook the NE lands but they forever lost Teldrassil. They won Arathi too but I'm not completely sure whether the Horde presence in the zone is wiped out and the zone is 100% Alliance or not. The Alliance killed the Zandalari King but that was a good thing because the new Queen seems way more capable. During said battle the Alliance refused to sack the city, just got in to fulfill their goal and left. The Zandalari are weakened because they lost their navy, but so did the Alliance with Nazjatar Moses scene. Talanji still holds a grudge against the Alliance.

    I can say that the Alliance leadership grew stronger with the war, meanwhile the Horde lost Sylvanas, Nathanos and Saurfang. The Horde Council is a good step to a more "democratic" direction and a means to avoid a third Warchief abuse of authority, but it also feels clownish at the same time. Meanwhile, the return of Alleria, Turalyon and a more determined and wakened Malfurion adds a lot to the Alliance's forces. Tyrande also seems to get a solution with her Night Warrior's powers in the next patch.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    The council won't last two years. A Warchief will be elected, and then he will foolishly provoke a war with the Alliance... and then get overthrown and the cycle will repeat.
    Of course they will. After all, you elected a Warchief because there's a war, and once the war that triggered this is over, well no wars means no need for a Warchief, so the Warchief engineers a new war with the Alliance. Got to justify your employment, after all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    to shed a bit of light on things, since Sylvanus rule was not legitimate, there is no problem in going against her, it is actually good.
    Funny. She was handed the position by her predecessor. Actually, that was in it's way a peaceful transference of power.

  7. #47
    War only has losers. Some may think they have won something, but in the end every loss was never worth it.

    So, none.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    There is no world in which the Alliance "run out of manpower" before the Horde does.
    horde races reproduce like rabits and get to adult age much sooner, alliance races in other hand don't, they long passed the "small tribes"

    The Orcs were just a group of tribes that were united by Blackhand,
    Orcs were a massive army and they breed out of propotions in the camps, the Blackmore was going to use that people to conquer the alliance, and much time and many more clans have joined since then

    The Tauren were just a few thousand in number, on the brink of being completely wiped out by the Centaurs. Their small tent city is supported by hunting-gathering[
    Only Caerne clan was, the other tribes were fine and the horde help then


    The Darkspear trolls were also just a few small tribes and also on the verge of being wiped out by the Naga. Again, they aren't farmers so they can't have populations that compare to your average Alliance kingdom.
    They were few right, but they like i said, reproduce much fast, their nubmer grow


    The alliance lost much more manpower trough the years one of the reasons why Stormwind is pretty much the "last" human big city.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    Funny. She was handed the position by her predecessor. Actually, that was in it's way a peaceful transference of power.
    Being tricked into doing that? ilegimate by all means

    even before, we can argue vol'jin rule was also not legitimate since He didn't defeat Garrosh in mak'gora neither Garry passed the title.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    Of course they will. After all, you elected a Warchief because there's a war, and once the war that triggered this is over, well no wars means no need for a Warchief, so the Warchief engineers a new war with the Alliance. Got to justify your employment, after all.
    Warchief stop being the "dude for war" since Thrall and was for being just the leader of the orcish clans and other races, it was a defacto title of high chieftain, but warchief sounds cooler

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    The Orcs were just a group of tribes that were united by Blackhand, and then the majority were killed off or died to starvation during the First and Second Wars. By WC3 the Orcs only had a few villages spread throughout the EK and Kalimdor and a few thousand people in concentration camps, with farming only just recently beginning to be practiced in Orgrimmar (and even then, Durotar is ill suited for farming. Seems they rely more on raising cattle and pigs).
    What's more, the lands that should be good for farming, along the riverbanks on the border of Durotar and the Barrens are basically untouched and left to the Quillboar. I think the Orcs simply can't bring themselves to do intensive agriculture. Gathering fruits and running grazing and pig farming is as 'low' as they'll go. What's more, it doesn't seem to have occurred to them that they could run herds on the Barrens if herding is all they'll do.

    Of course using large carnivores as mounts doesn't help either. It's all very warlike but keeping a 500-1000 pound wolf that's working fed is even harder than keeping a 500-1000 pound warhorse fed. The same goes for the Night Elves, but they aren't the ones who keep complaining about food shortages.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Rendark View Post
    The horde is not allowed to have nice things, so the alliance had to win.
    And the Alliance Players have permission?
    you won a war but off camera and we are not going to show you any of your achievements.

    The correction would be. WoW Players are not allowed to have nice things. Just to lose them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    Tyrande's dead set on killing Sylvanas but doesn't seem to care at all about the rest of the Horde who carried out her vile orders. Like.. what? She couldn't have said to her forces "hey, before I dive into hell, go and hunt down every forsaken mongrel and execute them"?

    There was no resolution to BFA's story, and it was embarrassing.
    And that's why all the expansions after BFA are going to be bad. We will always be waiting for the end of BFA that is not closed.
    Last edited by geco; 2021-05-07 at 12:34 PM.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Being tricked into doing that? ilegimate by all means

    even before, we can argue vol'jin rule was also not legitimate since He didn't defeat Garrosh in mak'gora neither Garry passed the title.
    Nowhere in the Blood Oath does it say the legitimacy of the Warchief rests on the reasons his predecessor nominated them. Vol'jin could have just as well picked Sylvanas' name out of a coconut. All that matters is that Sylvanas was accepted by the Horde and received an oath from its members. The whole nonsense about "Sylvanas is illegitimate because outside interference" ignores how the Horde's first Warchief was the Shadow Council's puppet put in the position by Gul'dan.
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  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    Where was it stated that the Kul Tiran fleet was destroyed? Less than half the fleet was depicted in Nazjatar cinematics, and Shadow's Rising continues to have the Alliance rely on Kul Tiran vessels to handle its naval operations. Did I miss some source that specified that the Kul Tiran fleet was destroyed?
    Not all of it, but "a great portion." https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Kul_Tiran_fleet
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  13. #53
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    Neither side won, but I was still left feeling like the Horde lost.
    Now you see it. Now you don't.

  14. #54
    It doesn't matter, because modern blizzard will retcon anything at any moment because they don't want to feel constrained by canon.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    welcome to wow, when exactly did it make sense?
    how did we beat LK? he has skeletons that tower entire alliance and horde armies combined, but hey he wanted to 'lure' champions to rez them
    what about how Garrosh supporters official lore answer is minority, mainly the old horde (garrosh recruited them) and dragonmaw and some goblins, yet his 'power' was threat to entire world because he had Y''sharraj heart with his side?
    what about the lovely sylvanas character that change depend on whoever writing her woke up on his left or right side
    too many bullsh8t in game, and ironic all started because we didn't really object of male nelf warrior and female druids

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    as a die hard horde fan since wc3 days, i assure u it is a win for horde too
    i don't want an emo bitch to lead my faction, i wish wc3 thrall is back, or cata garrosh
    If you want a real warchief you need to look back before "the good old wc3 days" a.k.a the start of the Hordes deathrattle.


    OT: The Alliance won a pyrrhic victory over the Horde in the 4th war.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    Alliance won, but they never got a real end. At least in MoP, Varian wagged their finger at the Horde before sending Garfish off with the teddy bears, as little as that was.

    Characters acted totally out of character, especially Genn, the Worgen got genocided a second time alongside the Night Elves and what.. they don't care? Nobody seems to care or understand the weight of that?

    Tyrande's dead set on killing Sylvanas but doesn't seem to care at all about the rest of the Horde who carried out her vile orders. Like.. what? She couldn't have said to her forces "hey, before I dive into hell, go and hunt down every forsaken mongrel and execute them"?

    There was no resolution to BFA's story, and it was embarrassing.
    Bolded bit. I would have loved that, even as Horde. Give me the savage night elves who shoot first then discuss it while they burn the bodies. (Heck, seeing Malf get work done on that troll in the Darkshore cinematic made me think it might actually happen but...nope) I suppose its still possible to find out something like that has been happening while we're in the Shadowlands? /shrug
    Last edited by AcidicSyn; 2021-05-07 at 07:52 PM.
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  16. #56
    The Alliance won more battles, but neither one of them won the war. In the end it was Sylvanas who got what she wanted while as of now the Alliance and Horde are struggling on all fronts.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by OwenBurton View Post
    The Fourth War is over, and ended in an uneasy armistice. Sylvanas abandoned the Horde. The Horde gained new racial leaders, and a new ruling council. Both sides gained permanent valuable new allies and lands. Most of the Alliance and Horde's military forces are completely decimated, and their resources largely depleted. But ultimately - who really "won" the Fourth War? The previous three wars had pretty clear victories, but this conclusion seems really unclear and poorly defined.

    For example, what happened to the territories of Ashenvale and Lordaeron? It's difficult to imagine thousands of orcs and Horde soldiers just calmly withdrawing from Ashenvale with their heads bowed, but I don't see how the Alliance or at least the night elves could accept an armistice without Ashenvale returned. And what about Tirisfal Glades, and the lands of Lordaeron? Are they all considered Alliance territory - or do they still belong to the Forsaken after the conflict ended, even after the Undercity was destroyed?

    Edit: I personally think as a compromise solution - part of Ashenvale, perhaps a fourth of Ashenvale at least near the Warsong Gulch area, should belong to the Horde, and an equivalent amount of Tirisfal Glades should belong to the Alliance. That way the usual "return to the older status quo" can be avoided, and the hardliners can be somewhat satisfied. The Horde gets to "win" some new territory, the Alliance gets to "reclaim" some of Lordaeron. There should be some change of sovereignty in both continents after such a massive conflict and a monstrous war - just like in real life. Or else it is just not realistic, frankly.

    What really constitutes victory - at the end of the day? In your personal opinion, and that of most people, who really won the war in the end? Are you personally satisfied with the ending?
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Lor...le_for_Azeroth < some info here.

    Sylvannas and the jailor? why is it not a option. The whole war was started by her. And she got what she wanted. massive death , so those souls could power zovaal.

    ( not 100% sure about the below) but here goes:
    - ashenvale: former battlefield but back to alliance ( i think)
    - darkshore: alliance, but much death, remains of death camps and destruction
    - teldrassil: a gaint burned piece of wood
    - south shore, hilbrans foothills, arathi highlands, silverpine went to alliance ( mostly) < in lore see wowpedia
    - lordaeron is still forsaken. But it is blighted. So....kinda like teldrassil. pointless to live there. < same as above.

    ( above is mostly the lore in game right now).

    So if we look pure at landmass:
    Alliance wins HEAVY. What did the horde get? a city they blighed themselves :S.
    A resources: we both lost. Sylvannas wins
    If we look at troops: we both lost. screaming B word wins.
    Leadership: Horde wins. they get a councel of centered not crazy people. with decent capabilties atleast. we have a rabid dog, holy zealot, crazy night warrior and a spy agency that is very dark in their methods. And our boy king is sometimes very smart and powerful. Othertimes so weak a baby wolvar pup could beat him or outthink him.


    Was i happy with this war how it ended etc? Nope there where many...plotholes. Stupid things in the story. If per instance ( without anduin knowing) si 7 tried to infeltrate a horde thing. Sylvannas captures them, kills some of her own troops. and blames the dead si 7 she capture for it. The war would have started better. And there are many problems like this. After garrosh, you would think more horde would notice a crazy leader.
    Or the whole horde leader ship followed Saurfang. Yet alliance and his troops where outmanned by sylvannas?
    Anduin also made some stupid mistakes when it comes to the night elves. etcetc.
    It was poorly written. Even by blizzard standards. Felt like a Jar Jar abrams movie. Wanted to say a micheal bay movie, but there are no american flags in WoW and most fo the cleavage has been removed from most of the hero's/villians.


    * side not if the horde should get more land:
    Should horde get any land ( if i go and think like you). Nope. the 2nd time they followed a mad tyrant. Yes i know before people start qoute wars. It was not as black and white in both cases. alliance made mistakes 2. But, both times the horde went full insane war mode like they always do. Hell blood elves get a heritage armor quest talking about how bad arthas was killing them and turning them into undead etc. Then they join in the sacking of ashenvale, darkshore and the burning of teldrassil. Even arthas ( LK) was as deadly as that to them :S.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Zuben View Post
    Neither side won, but I was still left feeling like the Horde lost.
    It's kind of complicated. The Alliance won in a "achieved their goal" sense, since they only wanted the war to end. The Horde didn't really have any actual goal since Sylvanas really just wanted as many deaths as possible, so defeat was pretty much the only option.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by AcidicSyn View Post
    If you want a real warchief you need to look back before "the good old wc3 days" a.k.a the start of the Hordes deathrattle.


    OT: The Alliance won a pyrrhic victory over the Horde in the 4th war.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Bolded bit. I would have loved that, even as Horde. Give me the savage night elves who shoot first then discuss it while they burn the bodies. (Heck, seeing Malf get work done on that troll in the Darkshore cinematic made me think it might actually happen but...nope) I suppose its still possible to find out something like that has been happening while we're in the Shadowlands? /shrug
    I thought that's what they were gonna do with Darkshore. But then they didn't. Yea, Night Elves got to kick Forsaken ass, but nothing like the prerendered cinematic where Malfurion goes apeshit savage. And Sylvanas and crew still got away anyways, so.. yea

  20. #60
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Nowhere in the Blood Oath does it say the legitimacy of the Warchief rests on the reasons his predecessor nominated them. Vol'jin could have just as well picked Sylvanas' name out of a coconut. All that matters is that Sylvanas was accepted by the Horde and received an oath from its members. The whole nonsense about "Sylvanas is illegitimate because outside interference" ignores how the Horde's first Warchief was the Shadow Council's puppet put in the position by Gul'dan.
    saying "blackhand was also illegitimate" don't mean sylvanas is legitimate, you know that right?

    Even so, the shadow council and gul'dan are directly party of the horde, isn't like they are the old gods doing it, by all means being choosed as a puppet still is a legitimate rule, since he was a chieftain.

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