View Poll Results: Who do you think really "won" the Fourth War?

Voters
201. You may not vote on this poll
  • The Horde won the Fourth War

    30 14.93%
  • The Alliance won the Fourth War

    108 53.73%
  • Other / Not sure / Neither side really won the Fourth War

    63 31.34%
Page 7 of 12 FirstFirst ...
5
6
7
8
9
... LastLast
  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Thundering View Post
    The Alliance needs 1 leader not to be divided into their own groups with their own leaders.....
    I think that what the alliance needs is that they take down that extra Pj.
    And that it is a group of leaders who watch over their race who ally against common enemies. You already know as an Alliance and not as an empire.

  2. #122
    Sylvanas won while the 2 factions fucked each other up hard

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Eslizon92 View Post
    How the horde is stronger than it was before the war, if they also lost the majority of his forces and Baine's taurens are serving as Anduin's guard???

    The Forsaken can't even create more forsaken anymore.

    Alliance won because: Horde started the war to annihilate the alliance, but they failed. At the end both factions lost alot of soldiers, but a least alliance gain a disputed territory. Arathi, and recovered Darkshore. What has the horde won? They just lose territories, take nothing, and the forsakens are going to be extinguished.

    Horde isn't in situation to attack anymore. They haven't force at the start of the war to attack SW, they cant attack any alliance territorie now. And with the last add, alliance got all mechagon tech, mechs, airships with plasma guns. We also got the most powerful magues and the Vindicar, which was ignored for bad story design.

    .

    The Horde still possibly still has Ashenvale, or at least parts of Ashenvale - they still need resources, or else they can't realistically survive, and Ashenvale still has plenty of those. They likely pushed towards Stonetalon Mountains, Feralas and Desolace as well during the conflict. As the night elves gathered most of their soldiers from their outposts, it is likely they abandoned most of their other bases after Teldrassil was destroyed. Tyrande was willing to concede Azshara after their last war despite everything the Horde did to her people, so it's possible the night elves have conceded some lands this time around as well.

    And I doubt most of the Horde population would have allowed the Horde Council to agree to unfair negotiations, they would have been torn apart otherwise. The Forsaken raised lots and lots of humans - and other people - from the dead, in fact, I'm surprised the Horde was losing the war, giving that Sylvanas could raise hundreds or thousands of her own people from the grave, as well as her enemies apparently.

    Remember, in the original cinematic, they showed both factions almost entirely controlling each continent. The night elves might have Darkshore and Nordrassil - but the Horde very likely still controls most of their continent.

    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Mechagon should be the strongest addition to Alliance in whole BfA. Its a treasure trove of technology and previously would be only rivaled by Gnomeregan and some Titan facilities.
    Perhaps. But we don't know their exact capabilities, they have flying machines, but does it have any kind of major game-changing offensive weaponry? If you're so passionate and knowledgeable about the lore, then perhaps you and others should consider contributing to Wowpedia, some of their articles are probably a bit incomplete and outdated.
    "Always you speak. Never do you listen! You ignore the lessons of Pandaria! You see, there is balance in all things. Wisdom etched in our very fur: Black and white. Darkness and light. When the last emperor hid our land from the rest of the world, he also preserved...our ancient enemy, the mantid. So it is with your Alliance and your Horde. They are not strong despite one another; they are strong BECAUSE of one another. You mistake your greatest strength for weakness. Do you see this?"

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by OwenBurton View Post
    The Horde still possibly still has Ashenvale, or at least parts of Ashenvale - they still need resources, or else they can't realistically survive, and Ashenvale still has plenty of those. They likely pushed towards Stonetalon Mountains, Feralas and Desolace as well during the conflict. As the night elves gathered most of their soldiers from their outposts, it is likely they abandoned most of their other bases after Teldrassil was destroyed. Tyrande was willing to concede Azshara after their last war despite everything the Horde did to her people, so it's possible the night elves have conceded some lands this time around as well.
    1 Tyrande is not directly willing to negotiate with Anduin, so I doubt she has found any territory. Maybe Anduin suggested it for sure.
    2 Based on what we saw in Costa Darco. There should be no more useful resources that the Horde has not destroyed in Ashenvale and the only way it still has is with the Kaldorei Druids.


    PS: About the armies. War itself only makes sense because the Alliance can never use 100% of its forces.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by OwenBurton View Post
    The Horde still possibly still has Ashenvale, or at least parts of Ashenvale - they still need resources, or else they can't realistically survive, and Ashenvale still has plenty of those. They likely pushed towards Stonetalon Mountains, Feralas and Desolace as well during the conflict. As the night elves gathered most of their soldiers from their outposts, it is likely they abandoned most of their other bases after Teldrassil was destroyed. Tyrande was willing to concede Azshara after their last war despite everything the Horde did to her people, so it's possible the night elves have conceded some lands this time around as well.

    And I doubt most of the Horde population would have allowed the Horde Council to agree to unfair negotiations, they would have been torn apart otherwise. The Forsaken raised lots and lots of humans - and other people - from the dead, in fact, I'm surprised the Horde was losing the war, giving that Sylvanas could raise hundreds or thousands of her own people from the grave, as well as her enemies apparently.

    Remember, in the original cinematic, they showed both factions almost entirely controlling each continent. The night elves might have Darkshore and Nordrassil - but the Horde very likely still controls most of their continent.



    Perhaps. But we don't know their exact capabilities, they have flying machines, but does it have any kind of major game-changing offensive weaponry? If you're so passionate and knowledgeable about the lore, then perhaps you and others should consider contributing to Wowpedia, some of their articles are probably a bit incomplete and outdated.
    Its not just flying machines , its the fact that their technology is just plain better, more advanced and developed then what usual gnomes or goblins have. Both gnome delegation and Gazlowe speak about how cool their gadgets and machines are and how they would want to “acquire” those technologies. In the end gnomes won out and mechagnomes joined the Alliance , bringing their whole nation in. So that means that not only Alliance acquired machines and tech already in use but also the research power Mechangon facilities provide, allowing for manufacturing and creating new technologies.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Mechagon should be the strongest addition to Alliance in whole BfA. Its a treasure trove of technology and previously would be only rivaled by Gnomeregan and some Titan facilities.
    What happend to the Roboticizer Machine that King Mechagon had? Is it still functioning? Could it be modified to end the Horde races or turn them into Robotic Slaves? Isn't it conveniently ignored like the Vindicaar?

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    Agreed with all that. The High-King story bit is a fucking farce. It was all made up to give Varian legitimacy as a returning character and they really overdid it. It was sad to see all the other leaders being brought down (Tyrande is suddenly stupid at war in Pandaria) or cut off the opportunity for character development (You'd think the werewolf king would have a special relationship with the wolf god, well think again).
    personally thought the High King thing was cool... as a wartime position similar to a 5 Star General... it got retarded when it basically turned into a Blue Warchief for the Alliance and further morsened when it turned into a positioned passed on to his kid

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    personally thought the High King thing was cool... as a wartime position similar to a 5 Star General... it got retarded when it basically turned into a Blue Warchief for the Alliance and further morsened when it turned into a positioned passed on to his kid
    I think calling it high king was a mistake and they should have used the old supreme commander title or whatever it was Lothar had. They could have had different supremem commanders for different conflicts even depending on the context.

    The big mistake though was passing it on to Anduin by default when Varian died.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    I think calling it high king was a mistake and they should have used the old supreme commander title or whatever it was Lothar had. They could have had different supremem commanders for different conflicts even depending on the context.

    The big mistake though was passing it on to Anduin by default when Varian died.
    It would be one thing if that development turned into a sort of intrigue strife building issue among the Alliance with different powers trying to deal with the issues for their own gain or something. Sort of perfect callback to Genn's older characterization and maybe drum up the basically forgotten Nobles that use to be a major cause of events in the EK. Maybe the Dwarves and Elves posture about their needs being ignored or getting looked down on or whatever... Gnomes have to step up and be the voice of reason cause they have been ever so the best allies every to all these folk .... but that's too much to really have sitting around as what would largely be side plot to more pressing issues like what extradimensional threat is attacking because someone picked the wrong color combinations to trace on the ground.

  10. #130
    I guess Alliance won... but in the end alliance also got fucked baaaaad....
    Undercity is plagued sure. But they did that themselves.

    Teldrassil is over. Forever. Undercity can be reclaimed. Just let Alex make a flyby.

    They really should clean up the Nightelf Undead living situation but i guess that will just be ignored for a few expansions.

  11. #131
    The Alliance got more out of the war in terms of territory and perhaps even potential resources, but I would consider it a pyrrhic victory considering that despite whoever got the advantage in the end, Horde or Alliance, it was still the Jailor who ultimately benefited most.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by StationaryHawk View Post
    Sure, but there is more to what is actually said than just subverting the humans' expectations. Deliberately ignoring the full story of Doomhammer's decision to invade Lordaeron by sea isn't a great look either.
    What isn't a great look here is you ignoring how these two passages are in two different paragraphs. Because there's a reason for that (seriously, the lack of understanding of what paragraphs are and what they are for on this forum is rather unsettling to say the least). Weirdly enough only one of them goes through Orgrim's thought process, while the other just engages in world-building. The mention of Thandol Span is just plain, descriptive narration. Stating a fact about the fortification. It says absolute squat about Orgrim's opinions about that fact or how this contributed to his decision-making.


    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    Ah, i thought that was before orgrimmar and after dazar'alor. I also recall the Horde being necessary, but rather as a complement than an only hope.

    Additionally the weeks-until-being overrun did not strike me as being based solely on naval power either.
    The whole war until that point was kinda revolving around naval power. The premise of war after Nathanos' escapades in Stormwind was the Horde aiming to get the upper hand by gaining a strong naval ally and the Alliance responding in turn to balance things out. Which was caused by both sides losing a significant portion of their navies during Legion. I suppose the idea there was the factions lacked the resources to move their armies around, so even if they had manpower like the Horde (as we didn't hear anything about them having to resort to peasants), they couldn't do much about it without the ability to actually attack the Alliance. Giving the Alliance the upper hand as they could sail around to strike the Horde where it was weak, disrupt their supply lines and whatnot.


    Quote Originally Posted by Broken Fox View Post
    Sylvanas won while the 2 factions fucked each other up hard
    If getting lobotomized counts as a victory.


    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    I think calling it high king was a mistake and they should have used the old supreme commander title or whatever it was Lothar had. They could have had different supremem commanders for different conflicts even depending on the context.

    The big mistake though was passing it on to Anduin by default when Varian died.
    The even bigger mistake was the idea that the guy who was fighting his first war ever was somehow the best guy for the job the Alliance could muster. Though it still beats making Anduin "Attacking the trolls when they are sad would make us as bad as Sylvanas" Wrynn the High King. And yes, Lothar was the Supreme Commander of the Alliance (or Supreme Allied Commander as the monument in Outland calls him).
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  13. #133
    Immortal Nnyco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Haomarush
    Posts
    7,704
    Alliance won the fights in darkshore and stromgarde but the war was basically a draw.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Crabs have been removed from the game... because if I see another one I’m just going to totally lose it. *sobbing* I’m sorry, I just can’t right now... I just... OK just give me a minute, I’ll be OK..

  14. #134
    Elemental Lord Soon-TM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Netherstorm
    Posts
    8,627
    Quote Originally Posted by StationaryHawk View Post
    I disagree. The Alliance cooperated just fine without a High King.

    Anduin is also replaceable.
    If another war breaks out and he hasn't returned, the Alliance can easily select a new High King that will probably serve them better anyways.
    Not for Golden & co., that much is certain.
    Current state of WoW lore:
    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    Who'd have known that the Domination guy whose aesthetics are 80% chains wasn't into freedom. Nobody could have seen this coming.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    What isn't a great look here is you ignoring how these two passages are in two different paragraphs. Because there's a reason for that (seriously, the lack of understanding of what paragraphs are and what they are for on this forum is rather unsettling to say the least). Weirdly enough only one of them goes through Orgrim's thought process, while the other just engages in world-building. The mention of Thandol Span is just plain, descriptive narration. Stating a fact about the fortification. It says absolute squat about Orgrim's opinions about that fact or how this contributed to his decision-making.




    The whole war until that point was kinda revolving around naval power. The premise of war after Nathanos' escapades in Stormwind was the Horde aiming to get the upper hand by gaining a strong naval ally and the Alliance responding in turn to balance things out. Which was caused by both sides losing a significant portion of their navies during Legion. I suppose the idea there was the factions lacked the resources to move their armies around, so even if they had manpower like the Horde (as we didn't hear anything about them having to resort to peasants), they couldn't do much about it without the ability to actually attack the Alliance. Giving the Alliance the upper hand as they could sail around to strike the Horde where it was weak, disrupt their supply lines and whatnot.




    If getting lobotomized counts as a victory.




    The even bigger mistake was the idea that the guy who was fighting his first war ever was somehow the best guy for the job the Alliance could muster. Though it still beats making Anduin "Attacking the trolls when they are sad would make us as bad as Sylvanas" Wrynn the High King. And yes, Lothar was the Supreme Commander of the Alliance (or Supreme Allied Commander as the monument in Outland calls him).
    Fair enough, i know that, but what point is there to naval power without manpower? That's almost pointless and certainly no cause for the statements regarding the Horde's imminent defeat.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    I guess Alliance won... but in the end alliance also got fucked baaaaad....
    Undercity is plagued sure. But they did that themselves.

    Teldrassil is over. Forever. Undercity can be reclaimed. Just let Alex make a flyby.

    They really should clean up the Nightelf Undead living situation but i guess that will just be ignored for a few expansions.
    Horde also got fucked.

    For example, The forsaken can't rise more forsaken anymore, so they are doomed to the extintion. Dont worry if they retake Undercity.

    If the alliance at the end had few troops, the horde has even fewer.

    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    Fair enough, i know that, but what point is there to naval power without manpower? That's almost pointless and certainly no cause for the statements regarding the Horde's imminent defeat.
    Nathanos claimed that alliance was beating horde in every front, this means that also on land. Horde had major defeats on darkshore and arathi, which implied a superiority of alliance's forces on land.

    Fleet is not that important when you can travel with portals.

    Alliance just need Varok's help to siege orgrimmar, because To besiege a fortification you need a great numerical superiority. (Horde didn't have enought manpower to siege Stormwind before the war start...).

    Probably the alliance forces were bigger than Varok+sylvanas forces at the end of the war.
    Last edited by Eslizon92; 2021-05-14 at 01:06 AM.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Broken Fox View Post
    Sylvanas won while the 2 factions fucked each other up hard
    This... horde leadership in shambles with people trying to placate Tyrande. Anduin over there like "torture is totally fine" while his heroes are rounding up random civilians they find on their travels. Jaina is somehow the sane one while Talanji has the perfectly understandable disdain for everyone because of daddy issues.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    This... horde leadership in shambles with people trying to placate Tyrande. Anduin over there like "torture is totally fine" while his heroes are rounding up random civilians they find on their travels. Jaina is somehow the sane one while Talanji has the perfectly understandable disdain for everyone because of daddy issues.
    They tortured two people in sum. An orc woman who acted like a Class 1 moron and spat on Turalyon while making sure to let everybody “know” that “i have info but not gonna talk” and endangering the whole caravan with it.

    Not that they hurt anybody else there. Imagine Sylvanas and Nathanos stumbling upon a human caravan in Arathi...

    And another was a criminal to whom even usual detectives apply a smackdown behind the closed doors and unlike using mind-reading damaged internal organs from batons and cracked fingers are painful for a very long time, and potentially a health hazard.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    They tortured two people in sum. An orc woman who acted like a Class 1 moron and spat on Turalyon while making sure to let everybody “know” that “i have info but not gonna talk” and endangering the whole caravan with it.

    Not that they hurt anybody else there. Imagine Sylvanas and Nathanos stumbling upon a human caravan in Arathi...

    And another was a criminal to whom even usual detectives apply a smackdown behind the closed doors and unlike using mind-reading damaged internal organs from batons and cracked fingers are painful for a very long time, and potentially a health hazard.
    And Anduin wasn't exactly broken up about the revelation at all... He was more worked up in the past over not knowing exactly what Shaw has done (which included hunting down Bilgewater Goblins for simply being in line of sight...).

    It's a bit troubling how the paragon of goodness and acceptance is suddenly totally ok with accosting random strangers and having them tortured for a lead... not secretly but him KNOWING it.


    edit:

    Anduin isn't Nathanos... we all expect better of ONE of these people

    edit2:

    keep in mind this little event we're discussing is a group of military personnel stalking, surrounding, and holding civilians with no proof. They got their proof via torture after the fact and assuming people knew something because a few fearful individuals acted like class 1 morons.... cause I guess a band of enemy nation troops armed and LOOKING for anything to act on is supposed to illicit a compliant response.
    Last edited by mickybrighteyes; 2021-05-14 at 02:25 AM.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    And Anduin wasn't exactly broken up about the revelation at all... He was more worked up in the past over not knowing exactly what Shaw has done (which included hunting down Bilgewater Goblins for simply being in line of sight...).

    It's a bit troubling how the paragon of goodness and acceptance is suddenly totally ok with accosting random strangers and having them tortured for a lead... not secretly but him KNOWING it.


    edit:

    Anduin isn't Nathanos... we all expect better of ONE of these people

    edit2:

    keep in mind this little event we're discussing is a group of military personnel stalking, surrounding, and holding civilians with no proof. They got their proof via torture after the fact and assuming people knew something because a few fearful individuals acted like class 1 morons.... cause I guess a band of enemy nation troops armed and LOOKING for anything to act on is supposed to illicit a compliant response.
    Well for one - non-lethal interrogation of one orc and one bandit is not something to be broken over when looking for an omnicidal enemy of both factions.

    Second - Arathi was won by Alliance and held by Alliance, horde travel there is on a very shaky grounds as is, especially without supervision from Alliance forces. Its the same as if humans or other Alliance races started traveling through Silverpine or Durotar or hell, Ghostlands or Quel’Thalas without informing Horde about it.

    Thirdly - Turalyon was not happy about it and only used it as a last resort when too much was at stake, and neither orc nor criminal have died.

    Fourthly - i already mention that horde resorted to torture, massacre and beatdown in far less drastic circumstances and in a FAR (obscenely far) many circumstances. Two non-lethal cases not just pale, they evaporate in comparison.

    Fifthly - if you want to get super-cynical then that orc broke Horde’s laws, or at least put herself outside of the Horde by defending Sylvanas and as we have seen those loyalists who maintain their “loyalty” to Banshee are chained and arrested. That orc woman essentially supported a war criminal and ex-warchief on whom horde (conveniently) managed to pile all their sins. You can say that she offered to share that burden.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •