Who do you think really "won" the Fourth War? The status of Ashenvale and Lordaeron?

[OwenBurton]

How the horde is stronger than it was before the war, if they also lost the majority of his forces and Baine's taurens are serving as Anduin's guard???

The Forsaken can't even create more forsaken anymore.

Alliance won because: Horde started the war to annihilate the alliance, but they failed. At the end both factions lost alot of soldiers, but a least alliance gain a disputed territory. Arathi, and recovered Darkshore. What has the horde won? They just lose territories, take nothing, and the forsakens are going to be extinguished.

Horde isn't in situation to attack anymore. They haven't force at the start of the war to attack SW, they cant attack any alliance territorie now. And with the last add, alliance got all mechagon tech, mechs, airships with plasma guns. We also got the most powerful magues and the Vindicar, which was ignored for bad story design.

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The Horde still possibly still has Ashenvale, or at least parts of Ashenvale - they still need resources, or else they can't realistically survive, and Ashenvale still has plenty of those. They likely pushed towards Stonetalon Mountains, Feralas and Desolace as well during the conflict. As the night elves gathered most of their soldiers from their outposts, it is likely they abandoned most of their other bases after Teldrassil was destroyed. Tyrande was willing to concede Azshara after their last war despite everything the Horde did to her people, so it's possible the night elves have conceded some lands this time around as well.

And I doubt most of the Horde population would have allowed the Horde Council to agree to unfair negotiations, they would have been torn apart otherwise. The Forsaken raised lots and lots of humans - and other people - from the dead, in fact, I'm surprised the Horde was losing the war, giving that Sylvanas could raise hundreds or thousands of her own people from the grave, as well as her enemies apparently.

Remember, in the original cinematic, they showed both factions almost entirely controlling each continent. The night elves might have Darkshore and Nordrassil - but the Horde very likely still controls most of their continent.

Mechagon should be the strongest addition to Alliance in whole BfA. Its a treasure trove of technology and previously would be only rivaled by Gnomeregan and some Titan facilities.

Perhaps. But we don't know their exact capabilities, they have flying machines, but does it have any kind of major game-changing offensive weaponry? If you're so passionate and knowledgeable about the lore, then perhaps you and others should consider contributing to Wowpedia, some of their articles are probably a bit incomplete and outdated.

[geco]

The Horde still possibly still has Ashenvale, or at least parts of Ashenvale - they still need resources, or else they can't realistically survive, and Ashenvale still has plenty of those. They likely pushed towards Stonetalon Mountains, Feralas and Desolace as well during the conflict. As the night elves gathered most of their soldiers from their outposts, it is likely they abandoned most of their other bases after Teldrassil was destroyed. Tyrande was willing to concede Azshara after their last war despite everything the Horde did to her people, so it's possible the night elves have conceded some lands this time around as well.

1 Tyrande is not directly willing to negotiate with Anduin, so I doubt she has found any territory. Maybe Anduin suggested it for sure.
2 Based on what we saw in Costa Darco. There should be no more useful resources that the Horde has not destroyed in Ashenvale and the only way it still has is with the Kaldorei Druids.


PS: About the armies. War itself only makes sense because the Alliance can never use 100% of its forces.

[VladlTutushkin]

The Horde still possibly still has Ashenvale, or at least parts of Ashenvale - they still need resources, or else they can't realistically survive, and Ashenvale still has plenty of those. They likely pushed towards Stonetalon Mountains, Feralas and Desolace as well during the conflict. As the night elves gathered most of their soldiers from their outposts, it is likely they abandoned most of their other bases after Teldrassil was destroyed. Tyrande was willing to concede Azshara after their last war despite everything the Horde did to her people, so it's possible the night elves have conceded some lands this time around as well.

And I doubt most of the Horde population would have allowed the Horde Council to agree to unfair negotiations, they would have been torn apart otherwise. The Forsaken raised lots and lots of humans - and other people - from the dead, in fact, I'm surprised the Horde was losing the war, giving that Sylvanas could raise hundreds or thousands of her own people from the grave, as well as her enemies apparently.

Remember, in the original cinematic, they showed both factions almost entirely controlling each continent. The night elves might have Darkshore and Nordrassil - but the Horde very likely still controls most of their continent.



Perhaps. But we don't know their exact capabilities, they have flying machines, but does it have any kind of major game-changing offensive weaponry? If you're so passionate and knowledgeable about the lore, then perhaps you and others should consider contributing to Wowpedia, some of their articles are probably a bit incomplete and outdated.

Its not just flying machines , its the fact that their technology is just plain better, more advanced and developed then what usual gnomes or goblins have. Both gnome delegation and Gazlowe speak about how cool their gadgets and machines are and how they would want to “acquire” those technologies. In the end gnomes won out and mechagnomes joined the Alliance , bringing their whole nation in. So that means that not only Alliance acquired machines and tech already in use but also the research power Mechangon facilities provide, allowing for manufacturing and creating new technologies.

[Darth-Piekus]

Mechagon should be the strongest addition to Alliance in whole BfA. Its a treasure trove of technology and previously would be only rivaled by Gnomeregan and some Titan facilities.

What happend to the Roboticizer Machine that King Mechagon had? Is it still functioning? Could it be modified to end the Horde races or turn them into Robotic Slaves? Isn't it conveniently ignored like the Vindicaar?

[mickybrighteyes]

Agreed with all that. The High-King story bit is a fucking farce. It was all made up to give Varian legitimacy as a returning character and they really overdid it. It was sad to see all the other leaders being brought down (Tyrande is suddenly stupid at war in Pandaria) or cut off the opportunity for character development (You'd think the werewolf king would have a special relationship with the wolf god, well think again).

personally thought the High King thing was cool... as a wartime position similar to a 5 Star General... it got retarded when it basically turned into a Blue Warchief for the Alliance and further morsened when it turned into a positioned passed on to his kid

[Florena]

personally thought the High King thing was cool... as a wartime position similar to a 5 Star General... it got retarded when it basically turned into a Blue Warchief for the Alliance and further morsened when it turned into a positioned passed on to his kid

I think calling it high king was a mistake and they should have used the old supreme commander title or whatever it was Lothar had. They could have had different supremem commanders for different conflicts even depending on the context.

The big mistake though was passing it on to Anduin by default when Varian died.

[mickybrighteyes]

I think calling it high king was a mistake and they should have used the old supreme commander title or whatever it was Lothar had. They could have had different supremem commanders for different conflicts even depending on the context.

The big mistake though was passing it on to Anduin by default when Varian died.

It would be one thing if that development turned into a sort of intrigue strife building issue among the Alliance with different powers trying to deal with the issues for their own gain or something. Sort of perfect callback to Genn's older characterization and maybe drum up the basically forgotten Nobles that use to be a major cause of events in the EK. Maybe the Dwarves and Elves posture about their needs being ignored or getting looked down on or whatever... Gnomes have to step up and be the voice of reason cause they have been ever so the best allies every to all these folk .... but that's too much to really have sitting around as what would largely be side plot to more pressing issues like what extradimensional threat is attacking because someone picked the wrong color combinations to trace on the ground.

[VinceVega]

I guess Alliance won... but in the end alliance also got fucked baaaaad....
Undercity is plagued sure. But they did that themselves.

Teldrassil is over. Forever. Undercity can be reclaimed. Just let Alex make a flyby.

They really should clean up the Nightelf Undead living situation but i guess that will just be ignored for a few expansions.

[Othorious]

The Alliance got more out of the war in terms of territory and perhaps even potential resources, but I would consider it a pyrrhic victory considering that despite whoever got the advantage in the end, Horde or Alliance, it was still the Jailor who ultimately benefited most.

[Mehrunes]

Sure, but there is more to what is actually said than just subverting the humans' expectations. Deliberately ignoring the full story of Doomhammer's decision to invade Lordaeron by sea isn't a great look either.

What isn't a great look here is you ignoring how these two passages are in two different paragraphs. Because there's a reason for that (seriously, the lack of understanding of what paragraphs are and what they are for on this forum is rather unsettling to say the least). Weirdly enough only one of them goes through Orgrim's thought process, while the other just engages in world-building. The mention of Thandol Span is just plain, descriptive narration. Stating a fact about the fortification. It says absolute squat about Orgrim's opinions about that fact or how this contributed to his decision-making.

Ah, i thought that was before orgrimmar and after dazar'alor. I also recall the Horde being necessary, but rather as a complement than an only hope.

Additionally the weeks-until-being overrun did not strike me as being based solely on naval power either.

The whole war until that point was kinda revolving around naval power. The premise of war after Nathanos' escapades in Stormwind was the Horde aiming to get the upper hand by gaining a strong naval ally and the Alliance responding in turn to balance things out. Which was caused by both sides losing a significant portion of their navies during Legion. I suppose the idea there was the factions lacked the resources to move their armies around, so even if they had manpower like the Horde (as we didn't hear anything about them having to resort to peasants), they couldn't do much about it without the ability to actually attack the Alliance. Giving the Alliance the upper hand as they could sail around to strike the Horde where it was weak, disrupt their supply lines and whatnot.

Sylvanas won while the 2 factions fucked each other up hard

If getting lobotomized counts as a victory.

I think calling it high king was a mistake and they should have used the old supreme commander title or whatever it was Lothar had. They could have had different supremem commanders for different conflicts even depending on the context.

The big mistake though was passing it on to Anduin by default when Varian died.

The even bigger mistake was the idea that the guy who was fighting his first war ever was somehow the best guy for the job the Alliance could muster. Though it still beats making Anduin "Attacking the trolls when they are sad would make us as bad as Sylvanas" Wrynn the High King. And yes, Lothar was the Supreme Commander of the Alliance (or Supreme Allied Commander as the monument in Outland calls him).

[Nnyco]

Alliance won the fights in darkshore and stromgarde but the war was basically a draw.

[Soon-TM]

I disagree. The Alliance cooperated just fine without a High King.

Anduin is also replaceable. If another war breaks out and he hasn't returned, the Alliance can easily select a new High King that will probably serve them better anyways.

Not for Golden & co., that much is certain.

[loras]

What isn't a great look here is you ignoring how these two passages are in two different paragraphs. Because there's a reason for that (seriously, the lack of understanding of what paragraphs are and what they are for on this forum is rather unsettling to say the least). Weirdly enough only one of them goes through Orgrim's thought process, while the other just engages in world-building. The mention of Thandol Span is just plain, descriptive narration. Stating a fact about the fortification. It says absolute squat about Orgrim's opinions about that fact or how this contributed to his decision-making.




The whole war until that point was kinda revolving around naval power. The premise of war after Nathanos' escapades in Stormwind was the Horde aiming to get the upper hand by gaining a strong naval ally and the Alliance responding in turn to balance things out. Which was caused by both sides losing a significant portion of their navies during Legion. I suppose the idea there was the factions lacked the resources to move their armies around, so even if they had manpower like the Horde (as we didn't hear anything about them having to resort to peasants), they couldn't do much about it without the ability to actually attack the Alliance. Giving the Alliance the upper hand as they could sail around to strike the Horde where it was weak, disrupt their supply lines and whatnot.




If getting lobotomized counts as a victory.




The even bigger mistake was the idea that the guy who was fighting his first war ever was somehow the best guy for the job the Alliance could muster. Though it still beats making Anduin "Attacking the trolls when they are sad would make us as bad as Sylvanas" Wrynn the High King. And yes, Lothar was the Supreme Commander of the Alliance (or Supreme Allied Commander as the monument in Outland calls him).

Fair enough, i know that, but what point is there to naval power without manpower? That's almost pointless and certainly no cause for the statements regarding the Horde's imminent defeat.

[Eslizon92]

I guess Alliance won... but in the end alliance also got fucked baaaaad....
Undercity is plagued sure. But they did that themselves.

Teldrassil is over. Forever. Undercity can be reclaimed. Just let Alex make a flyby.

They really should clean up the Nightelf Undead living situation but i guess that will just be ignored for a few expansions.

Horde also got fucked.

For example, The forsaken can't rise more forsaken anymore, so they are doomed to the extintion. Dont worry if they retake Undercity.

If the alliance at the end had few troops, the horde has even fewer.

Fair enough, i know that, but what point is there to naval power without manpower? That's almost pointless and certainly no cause for the statements regarding the Horde's imminent defeat.

Nathanos claimed that alliance was beating horde in every front, this means that also on land. Horde had major defeats on darkshore and arathi, which implied a superiority of alliance's forces on land.

Fleet is not that important when you can travel with portals.

Alliance just need Varok's help to siege orgrimmar, because To besiege a fortification you need a great numerical superiority. (Horde didn't have enought manpower to siege Stormwind before the war start...).

Probably the alliance forces were bigger than Varok+sylvanas forces at the end of the war.

[mickybrighteyes]

Sylvanas won while the 2 factions fucked each other up hard

This... horde leadership in shambles with people trying to placate Tyrande. Anduin over there like "torture is totally fine" while his heroes are rounding up random civilians they find on their travels. Jaina is somehow the sane one while Talanji has the perfectly understandable disdain for everyone because of daddy issues.

[VladlTutushkin]

This... horde leadership in shambles with people trying to placate Tyrande. Anduin over there like "torture is totally fine" while his heroes are rounding up random civilians they find on their travels. Jaina is somehow the sane one while Talanji has the perfectly understandable disdain for everyone because of daddy issues.

They tortured two people in sum. An orc woman who acted like a Class 1 moron and spat on Turalyon while making sure to let everybody “know” that “i have info but not gonna talk” and endangering the whole caravan with it.

Not that they hurt anybody else there. Imagine Sylvanas and Nathanos stumbling upon a human caravan in Arathi...

And another was a criminal to whom even usual detectives apply a smackdown behind the closed doors and unlike using mind-reading damaged internal organs from batons and cracked fingers are painful for a very long time, and potentially a health hazard.

[mickybrighteyes]

They tortured two people in sum. An orc woman who acted like a Class 1 moron and spat on Turalyon while making sure to let everybody “know” that “i have info but not gonna talk” and endangering the whole caravan with it.

Not that they hurt anybody else there. Imagine Sylvanas and Nathanos stumbling upon a human caravan in Arathi...

And another was a criminal to whom even usual detectives apply a smackdown behind the closed doors and unlike using mind-reading damaged internal organs from batons and cracked fingers are painful for a very long time, and potentially a health hazard.

And Anduin wasn't exactly broken up about the revelation at all... He was more worked up in the past over not knowing exactly what Shaw has done (which included hunting down Bilgewater Goblins for simply being in line of sight...).

It's a bit troubling how the paragon of goodness and acceptance is suddenly totally ok with accosting random strangers and having them tortured for a lead... not secretly but him KNOWING it.


edit:

Anduin isn't Nathanos... we all expect better of ONE of these people

edit2:

keep in mind this little event we're discussing is a group of military personnel stalking, surrounding, and holding civilians with no proof. They got their proof via torture after the fact and assuming people knew something because a few fearful individuals acted like class 1 morons.... cause I guess a band of enemy nation troops armed and LOOKING for anything to act on is supposed to illicit a compliant response.

[VladlTutushkin]

And Anduin wasn't exactly broken up about the revelation at all... He was more worked up in the past over not knowing exactly what Shaw has done (which included hunting down Bilgewater Goblins for simply being in line of sight...).

It's a bit troubling how the paragon of goodness and acceptance is suddenly totally ok with accosting random strangers and having them tortured for a lead... not secretly but him KNOWING it.


edit:

Anduin isn't Nathanos... we all expect better of ONE of these people

edit2:

keep in mind this little event we're discussing is a group of military personnel stalking, surrounding, and holding civilians with no proof. They got their proof via torture after the fact and assuming people knew something because a few fearful individuals acted like class 1 morons.... cause I guess a band of enemy nation troops armed and LOOKING for anything to act on is supposed to illicit a compliant response.

Well for one - non-lethal interrogation of one orc and one bandit is not something to be broken over when looking for an omnicidal enemy of both factions.

Second - Arathi was won by Alliance and held by Alliance, horde travel there is on a very shaky grounds as is, especially without supervision from Alliance forces. Its the same as if humans or other Alliance races started traveling through Silverpine or Durotar or hell, Ghostlands or Quel’Thalas without informing Horde about it.

Thirdly - Turalyon was not happy about it and only used it as a last resort when too much was at stake, and neither orc nor criminal have died.

Fourthly - i already mention that horde resorted to torture, massacre and beatdown in far less drastic circumstances and in a FAR (obscenely far) many circumstances. Two non-lethal cases not just pale, they evaporate in comparison.

Fifthly - if you want to get super-cynical then that orc broke Horde’s laws, or at least put herself outside of the Horde by defending Sylvanas and as we have seen those loyalists who maintain their “loyalty” to Banshee are chained and arrested. That orc woman essentially supported a war criminal and ex-warchief on whom horde (conveniently) managed to pile all their sins. You can say that she offered to share that burden.

[Minikin]

They say the alliance won

But it doesn't feel like that.

[mickybrighteyes]

Well for one - non-lethal interrogation of one orc and one bandit is not something to be broken over when looking for an omnicidal enemy of both factions.

The fact that restorative magic was required after the fact renders the "non-lethal" point questionable. also "for the greater good" logic is still poor reasoning. Also one character falling over limp and frothing at the mouth...

Second - Arathi was won by Alliance and held by Alliance, horde travel there is on a very shaky grounds as is, especially without supervision from Alliance forces. Its the same as if humans or other Alliance races started traveling through Silverpine or Durotar or hell, Ghostlands or Quel’Thalas without informing Horde about it.

This isn't justification for stopping parties that are clearly found to be non-soldiers to do with as one pleases

Thirdly - Turalyon was not happy about it and only used it as a last resort when too much was at stake, and neither orc nor criminal have died.

I think we have a number of threads about various figureheads and their willingness to comply with actions they're not pleased with. Also "least they didn't die" small positive i guess. I'm gonna have to go back and read cause I remember it being an Orc mother put to the question, an apothecary that was taken into custody immediately while the rest of the bunch dropped off the story as things transitioned... then it moved to a "smuggler" with reference to a "father" and the "smuggler" going limp and "perhaps dead".... actually it seems more than 2 people were hit up by Alleria and Turalyon...

Fourthly - i already mention that horde resorted to torture, massacre and beatdown in far less drastic circumstances and in a FAR (obscenely far) many circumstances. Two non-lethal cases not just pale, they evaporate in comparison.

This isn't the horde but the vaunted alliance with their holier than though charge of condemning evil for the sake of justice. Or at least that was the case.... cuase now even the Naive Boy King is growing to have a taste for the dirty business and no one is there to smack sense in him.

Fifthly - if you want to get super-cynical then that orc broke Horde’s laws, or at least put herself outside of the Horde by defending Sylvanas and as we have seen those loyalists who maintain their “loyalty” to Banshee are chained and arrested. That orc woman essentially supported a war criminal and ex-warchief on whom horde (conveniently) managed to pile all their sins. You can say that she offered to share that burden.

It's funny how you want to argue this now. we have no idea about what made those characters move as they did and are you suggesting that civilians raise their arms to overpower the now super soldier level covert ops forces that can damn near solo platoons of soldiers?