Who do you think really "won" the Fourth War? The status of Ashenvale and Lordaeron?

[geco]

Translation for non Spanish-speaking forum dwellers: BfA unfortunately makes sure that the cycle will never be broken. Teldrassil will be always there, casting its shadow.

Thanks

You are right on that one. Can the Horde pay for Teldrassil on a level that they will feel it by a full dismantle and hiding on an abandoned uncovered map in Azeroth from the rest of Azeroth? Blizzard won't do it so this cycle has to end. Faction war is not working at all cause there won't be a full victory. It only creates unwanted drama and food for trolling for those very few that still want that.

The option to "ignore it" is to shit in the room of your players who are going to be constantly asking for revenge. In fact, I dare say that SW is so bad because of that event.

It's saying to your fans "you know you don't have to care about the story" and the response from the fans is "Ok I don't care about the story. Then I don't care about the story either."

And Teldrazzil is the "easy" part to fix. You still have to basically fix the entire Horde.

[Clbull]

I'm on the side of "nobody really won."

The Horde definitely lost territory after the Fourth War and suffered significant casualties, particularly in its leadership, but they permanently fixed their issue with appointing tyrannical warchiefs by adopting a joint council and bringing Thrall back from retirement. Did I also mention that Calia Menethil is far more chill and far more congruent with New Horde thinking than Sylvanas was?

And while the Alliance definitely won in Stromgarde and Darkshore, they substantially lost confidence in Anduin Wrynn. There is no way that he's returning to his throne without either a substantial shift in personality spurred by months of Maw imprisonment/domination, or without a major challenge from Tyrande or Greymane towards his leadership.

The Wrynns had multiple chances to obliterate the Horde; two where they literally had armies marched upon Orgrimmar yet they showed restraint. After what happened to Gilneas and Teldrassil, would the Worgen and Night Elves still accept Anduin as their leader?

[Accendor]

Very clearly the Horde, as one Alliance race was brought to near extinction while the rest of the casualties seem to even out between both factions. They also lost their homecidial lunatic leader, so now they can go back to a regular homicidal leadership. The alliance on there other hand is basically shattered, with a deep rift between nightelves and the rest except worgen while the horde stands united because most of them agreed that Sylvanas did nothing wrong, up until she abandoned them.

[Grazrug]

I'm on the side of "nobody really won."

The Horde definitely lost territory after the Fourth War and suffered significant casualties, particularly in its leadership, but they permanently fixed their issue with appointing tyrannical warchiefs by adopting a joint council and bringing Thrall back from retirement. Did I also mention that Calia Menethil is far more chill and far more congruent with New Horde thinking than Sylvanas was?

And while the Alliance definitely won in Stromgarde and Darkshore, they substantially lost confidence in Anduin Wrynn. There is no way that he's returning to his throne without either a substantial shift in personality spurred by months of Maw imprisonment/domination, or without a major challenge from Tyrande or Greymane towards his leadership.

The Wrynns had multiple chances to obliterate the Horde; two where they literally had armies marched upon Orgrimmar yet they showed restraint. After what happened to Gilneas and Teldrassil, would the Worgen and Night Elves still accept Anduin as their leader?

Nobody wants Calia. Stop trying to act like she was a good leader. She needs to die.

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I'm on the side of "nobody really won."

The Horde definitely lost territory after the Fourth War and suffered significant casualties, particularly in its leadership, but they permanently fixed their issue with appointing tyrannical warchiefs by adopting a joint council and bringing Thrall back from retirement. Did I also mention that Calia Menethil is far more chill and far more congruent with New Horde thinking than Sylvanas was?

And while the Alliance definitely won in Stromgarde and Darkshore, they substantially lost confidence in Anduin Wrynn. There is no way that he's returning to his throne without either a substantial shift in personality spurred by months of Maw imprisonment/domination, or without a major challenge from Tyrande or Greymane towards his leadership.

The Wrynns had multiple chances to obliterate the Horde; two where they literally had armies marched upon Orgrimmar yet they showed restraint. After what happened to Gilneas and Teldrassil, would the Worgen and Night Elves still accept Anduin as their leader?

Alliance won by a large margin. Stop downplaying it.

[Soon-TM]

IAfter what happened to Gilneas and Teldrassil, would the Worgen and Night Elves still accept Anduin as their leader?

They certainly would, lest they are struck with the unreasonable/edgy/evil scapular, nobody ever opposes a Wrynn, especially the younger one, and comes out of it unscathed. Unless they eventually convert to Anduinism, of course.

[Clbull]

I'm not saying they're going to (directly) challenge Anduin Wrynn's leadership, but they could definitely withdraw from the Alliance in droves and splinter off as an independent faction - think what Gilneas and Kul Tiras did.

It wouldn't be the biggest shock faction change we've seen in WoW either.

[geco]

They certainly would, lest they are struck with the unreasonable/edgy/evil scapular, nobody ever opposes a Wrynn, especially the younger one, and comes out of it unscathed. Unless they eventually convert to Anduinism, of course.

Literally the other option is extinction.

[Soon-TM]

Literally the other option is extinction.

They are pretty much extinct, so... /shrug

I'm not saying they're going to (directly) challenge Anduin Wrynn's leadership, but they could definitely withdraw from the Alliance in droves and splinter off as an independent faction - think what Gilneas and Kul Tiras did.

It wouldn't be the biggest shock faction change we've seen in WoW either.

This could be cool. Lorewise, it could always be argued that the canonic nelfs have withdrawn from the Alliance, while the PC nelf is a Shandris fanboi/gurl addicted to dat sweet human potential.

[Clbull]

These changes rarely if ever impact the PC's experience. When Blood Elves were expelled from the Kirin Tor and Dalaran, it didn't impact how Horde players would interact with Kirin Tor NPCs more than just making them neutral in the WoD expansion.

Even in the Shadowlands Jaina put down her hatred of the Horde.

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Sadly Thrall FINALLY learned that he can't leave the Horde alone for 5 minutes without them running off and attacking everyone like barbarians. Sounds like a win for Alliance who has yet to really require a baby sitter for any of it's members.

I still wonder what would have happened if Thrall gave the warchief mantle to Cairne Bloodhoof or Vol'jin. Or better yet... if Thrall didn't abdicate in the first place.

Cataclysm wouldn't have changed all that much but Mists of Pandaria would have gone down a vastly different route. There would also have been an increasing likelihood of peace between the Alliance and Horde.

Theramore, the Undercity, Gilneas and Teldrassil would most likely still be standing.

Warlords of Draenor may never have happened, meaning no (or a significantly delayed) Legion invasion and even likelier no BFA or SL.

[Thage]

Canonically, the Alliance is the recognized winner of the Fourth War. In the book featuring Shaw and Flynn traveling the world, it's shown that the Alliance has secured Arathi and part of Hillsbrad, and the Alliance-aligned Bloodfang Pack have pushed the Horde out of Silverpine, with Ivar ruling from Fenris Keep. It stands to reason Gilneas will be secured shortly barring anything unforeseen. In Kalimdor, the Alliance retook Darkshore and seem on-track to retake at least part of Ashenvale. The Horde has retaken Tirisfal and still controls their share of the Western Plaguelands, but between restructuring their government and seeming to resume the post-Third War status quo (overlooking border clashes and resource skirmishes as 'just the cost of business), one would be hard-pressed to agree the Horde won considering it all but capitulated to the Alliance's peace terms, something that Talanji especially is unhappy with in Shadows Rising.

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I'm not saying they're going to (directly) challenge Anduin Wrynn's leadership, but they could definitely withdraw from the Alliance in droves and splinter off as an independent faction - think what Gilneas and Kul Tiras did.

It wouldn't be the biggest shock faction change we've seen in WoW either.

The night elves are currently split in two camps: the Alliance patriots under Shandris, who want to move forward as their means of handling their grief, and those who rally under Tyrande and Maiev, who've significantly stepped back from the Alliance and once again treat it as a purely military, well, alliance.

[geco]

The night elves are currently split in two camps: the Alliance patriots under Shandris, who want to move forward as their means of handling their grief, and those who rally under Tyrande and Maiev, who've significantly stepped back from the Alliance and once again treat it as a purely military, well, alliance.

From what the novel shows us.
I don't think it becomes a real division.
Shandris doesn't show any favors for Anduin again after the argument.
and the trio seem to agree or disagree on different things.

Shandris is shown willing to trust the Horde. That would be the only real difference that she shows. And it is not even trusting too much.
She would say that the sides are.
Heal and then take revenge. Shandris.
Take revenge and then heal. Tyrande.
Vanish and heal at the same time. Maiev.

And that's assuming there really are "sides" and it's not just the opinions of the NPCs.

So it sounds to me that the "patriotism" of the alliance after seeing how it was received horrible for the third or fourth time. He already got into a drawer and forgot. (As it must have been from the start)

[VladlTutushkin]

Canonically, the Alliance is the recognized winner of the Fourth War. In the book featuring Shaw and Flynn traveling the world, it's shown that the Alliance has secured Arathi and part of Hillsbrad, and the Alliance-aligned Bloodfang Pack have pushed the Horde out of Silverpine, with Ivar ruling from Fenris Keep. It stands to reason Gilneas will be secured shortly barring anything unforeseen. In Kalimdor, the Alliance retook Darkshore and seem on-track to retake at least part of Ashenvale. The Horde has retaken Tirisfal and still controls their share of the Western Plaguelands, but between restructuring their government and seeming to resume the post-Third War status quo (overlooking border clashes and resource skirmishes as 'just the cost of business), one would be hard-pressed to agree the Horde won considering it all but capitulated to the Alliance's peace terms, something that Talanji especially is unhappy with in Shadows Rising.

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The night elves are currently split in two camps: the Alliance patriots under Shandris, who want to move forward as their means of handling their grief, and those who rally under Tyrande and Maiev, who've significantly stepped back from the Alliance and once again treat it as a purely military, well, alliance.

Any elf that is not crippled physically or a mental sociopath would by in Tyrande’s “camp” now. Its a bloody genocide and mass occupation of their land! Any nation rises to fight when that happens! No matter how cowardly and appeasing the “far away allies” behind the ocean are.

[Ardenaso]

Sadly Thrall FINALLY learned that he can't leave the Horde alone for 5 minutes without them running off and attacking everyone like barbarians. Sounds like a win for Alliance who has yet to really require a baby sitter for any of it's members.

to be fair before Anduin got to lead the Alliance, there was the genocide of the Stonespires, the massacre of Taurajo, the sabotage of the Arcane Sanctums in Ghostlands, the massacre of the Horde surrenderees at Theramore, and the Goblin ship massacre; you could say that Anduin is now babysitting the Alliance because "we would be no better than them"

[geco]

Any elf that is not crippled physically or a mental sociopath would by in Tyrande’s “camp” now. Its a bloody genocide and mass occupation of their land! Any nation rises to fight when that happens! No matter how cowardly and appeasing the “far away allies” behind the ocean are.

When the second option is that they kill you and your whole family.
Always the first option happens to be the best option.

[VladlTutushkin]

When the second option is that they kill you and your whole family.
Always the first option happens to be the best option.

Thing is. Their families are either killed or in Hyjal or Stormwind. And horde will never stop attacking them anyway so its not really a problem. They have almost nothing left to lose by now.

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to be fair before Anduin got to lead the Alliance, there was the genocide of the Stonespires, the massacre of Taurajo, the sabotage of the Arcane Sanctums in Ghostlands, the massacre of the Horde surrenderees at Theramore, and the Goblin ship massacre; you could say that Anduin is now babysitting the Alliance because "we would be no better than them"

For each of those horde has three worse crimes so its not really comparable.

[geco]

you could say that Anduin is now babysitting the Alliance because "we would be no better than them"

If those things seem so serious to you
And since Anduin arrived.
We kidnapped a princess, we murdered her father. We violate the privacy right of a city by the lot. We attacked Miners and made preemptive attacks everywhere.
Besides you already know how to betray your allies. Mock the deaths of thousands of civilians and condemn those who remain to slaughter.

So if all that about the Alliance seemed bad to you. With Anduin they must be much worse.

[Wolfrick]

Horde also got fucked.

For example, The forsaken can't rise more forsaken anymore, so they are doomed to the extintion. Dont worry if they retake Undercity.

If the alliance at the end had few troops, the horde has even fewer.

What you say is true, and this is one of the major reasons I am more then sure that we will get Necromancers in the future, since after "Shadowlands" every major power on Azeroth need Necromancers to keep the undead in check.

and the Forsaken should want and look for Necromancers in their army since as you say, that would be their "Recrument" system for a larger army or population.

[catalystical]

I think it's fair to say the Zovaal won.

[Wolfrick]

Fleet is not that important when you can travel with portals.

Blizzard is really bad a showing this in gameplay... but Portals are a rich mans travel... its very rare and not so normal to Travel by mage portals or any kind of portals...

most of the economy and supplies are moved by Carrage and Caravans.... over land and Ships by sea....

So having a strong navy is super important in Azeroth.

but again, this is not your mistake, its more blizzards mistake of now showing this in gameplay

[Verdugo]

Blizzard is really bad a showing this in gameplay... but Portals are a rich mans travel... its very rare and not so normal to Travel by mage portals or any kind of portals...

most of the economy and supplies are moved by Carrage and Caravans.... over land and Ships by sea....

So having a strong navy is super important in Azeroth.

but again, this is not your mistake, its more blizzards mistake of now showing this in gameplay

Well not anymore with Golden being on the team. She always considered portals to be part of everyday life.