View Poll Results: Different gear for different role?

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  • Yes

    66 37.08%
  • No

    101 56.74%
  • Not sure

    10 5.62%
  • No opinion

    1 0.56%
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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    But they're so rare that players can't expect to have them, but when it drops, feel real excited. That excitement is what makes the game fun for some.
    If that's what excites you, play the lottery. Go to Vegas. Play literally any EA game.

    Loot in WoW shouldn't be a lottery. It should be a merit-based system.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Marxman View Post
    If that's what excites you, play the lottery. Go to Vegas. Play literally any EA game.

    Loot in WoW shouldn't be a lottery. It should be a merit-based system.
    So, should be receive tokens per boss and then be able to purchase specific pieces based on that currency?

    Or is the current lottery system the limit to your acceptable RNG loot preference?

    All systems that drop loot are merit based.

  3. #43
    so much yes i was just thinking the other day I miss having real tank gear even if it was more HP and armor or something. go back to tank DPS not being a thing in groups, and maybe some sort of passive solo buff or something that boosted dmg for hp/armor.. that scaled based on group size till you hit 5 then basically tank DPS is gone. I don't know.. i just hate tank dps even being a thing...... i will always miss +def gear, and block, and avoidance.
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  4. #44
    No. You want to see even less tanks and healers?

    You already need different trinkets. And most specs don't share the same secondary priorities so there are classes with "healer/tank/dps sets".

  5. #45
    Yes, if that would mean non-essential stuff that innitialy kills your flexibility in other content (PvP, M+ and Raids) than that would be a verry good rewind. I am talking about how covenants restrict you in a way to perform at an S tier in any given content (due to specific ability's it grants you). I would much rather grind the specific gear for my PvP/OS/M+ than have a covenent that is S for raiding, but B for M+... thats just frustrating and not needed. You got a character, gear the character and enhance it with diffrent gear, the foundation of RP I would say and plays a big part the current game is lacking!

  6. #46
    At least make spirit a stat again.

    I would love to be able to have the choice of raw throughtput vs mana management when it comes to gear.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nirathiel View Post
    Nah wow shouldn't go back to that system. As most have said here, the old stats like Hit and Defense were very boring and awful just like this idea. What a horrible idea.
    And stats like Versatility aren't boring? They're a literal flat damage/mitigation increase. They've also been repurposed in Shadowlands as a replacement to PvP Resilience/Power, which in themselves were necessary stats for balancing out PvP progression.

    I'm all for going back to the old Wrath/Cataclysm era system because the stat complexity in WoW is frankly nonexistent thanks to all the stat and ability pruning done over the years. Having player performance governed by 1 primary and 4 secondary stats more-so resembles a Fisher Price My First MMORPG.

    Like... if modern WoW were a tabletop RPG and you showed one of its character sheets to a D&D veteran, they'd laugh in your face and tell them they aren't going to play a game for pre-schoolers. They'd then ask if you're meant to fill it out with a pen or a crayon.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Marxman View Post
    I like them, so I guess there goes your theory.
    Same. I've always been wondering what these "fun stats" are.

  9. #49
    Whether it's gear or not I prefer to see the roles focused on excelling in their respective field. I dislike the "meta" where a good healer is judged by the damage they do besides keeping everyone alive.

    Unfortunately in the recent interview Ion showed to be embracing the idea. Instead of healing and utility and supportive actions he expressed that the good healer is indeed the one who also dishes damage.

    The "support" playstyle has its own place, it can shine in a myriad of other ways than dishing damage in between. But the extremely narrow design vision we are seeing is seemingly devoid of creativity.

    So while I definitely dislike stats like hit rating I'd be okay with even something like that as long as it brings the role focus back to their center. Healers I know have said if they wanted to dps and be judged by their dps they would play a dps. But it's easier to claim those people are bad and maintain our condescending attitude.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Trumpcat View Post
    Whether it's gear or not I prefer to see the roles focused on excelling in their respective field. I dislike the "meta" where a good healer is judged by the damage they do besides keeping everyone alive.

    Unfortunately in the recent interview Ion showed to be embracing the idea. Instead of healing and utility and supportive actions he expressed that the good healer is indeed the one who also dishes damage.

    The "support" playstyle has its own place, it can shine in a myriad of other ways than dishing damage in between. But the extremely narrow design vision we are seeing is seemingly devoid of creativity.

    So while I definitely dislike stats like hit rating I'd be okay with even something like that as long as it brings the role focus back to their center. Healers I know have said if they wanted to dps and be judged by their dps they would play a dps. But it's easier to claim those people are bad and maintain our condescending attitude.
    I mean, healing is binary. Either u keep everyone up, or u don't. On top of that you have utility. You use it when needed or when its off cd, but you dont spend too many globals on utility. If you're keeping ppl alive and no utility is needed, you are obviously going to dps. The better healer keeps ppl alive more efficiently, uses their utility when needed, and thus has more time to dps. Thats why higher dps healers are better. I personally really like this meta

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    I mean, healing is binary. Either u keep everyone up, or u don't. On top of that you have utility. You use it when needed or when its off cd, but you dont spend too many globals on utility. If you're keeping ppl alive and no utility is needed, you are obviously going to dps. The better healer keeps ppl alive more efficiently, uses their utility when needed, and thus has more time to dps. Thats why higher dps healers are better. I personally really like this meta
    Yeah, I agree with what you say, dishing damage is indeed what a healer got to "keep busy" between healing and that's indeed what it takes to call someone a good healer. What I mean is that the healing downtime could be filled by more creative utility abilities, more active buffing of allies, debuffing of enemies, CC, creating zones of good or zones of bad where the group has to stand or move mobs into, etc. There's so many things, yet the Blizzard design is narrowing down on keys that make dps/heal numbers.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Trumpcat View Post
    Yeah, I agree with what you say, dishing damage is indeed what a healer got to "keep busy" between healing and that's indeed what it takes to call someone a good healer. What I mean is that the healing downtime could be filled by more creative utility abilities, more active buffing of allies, debuffing of enemies, CC, creating zones of good or zones of bad where the group has to stand or move mobs into, etc. There's so many things, yet the Blizzard design is narrowing down on keys that make dps/heal numbers.
    That would be an interesting way to do it. I personally love what I do on my resto druid. Most healing is preemptive with buffing my party with hots. I drop effloressence which is a good zone to stand in. Just like I keep party hotted, I keep enemies dotted which feels just as good. And I have typhoon, ursols vortex, and the aoe sprint for utility. Then every 2 mins after keeping group hotted and enemies dotted, I can proc an eclipse and then convoke.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marxman View Post
    I preferred loot with more specialized stats (Spirit, MP5, Dodge, Defense, Hit/Expertise, etc.). I think it made the gearing process significantly more interesting than the bland 4 stats for everyone we have now.

    I completely understand why someone would prefer this much simpler gearing system though. Not needing multiple gear sets is really nice for hybrids, and lets people play offspecs somewhat easily (though borrowed power usually being spec-specific blows that up, unfortunately).



    I like them, so I guess there goes your theory.
    I hated hit (it made no sense in melee why I'd miss a target 2 feet in front of me, if it moves, that's a dodge and therefore a different stat) but I liked defense. Felt it was a mini-goal to work for while gearing. "Cool, I got past Uncrushable and Uncritable and can tank raids now!"

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Velerios View Post
    First and foremost: i don't want to have gearing like in classic where healers would solo hit like a wet noodle and tanks could tank a lot of mobs and not dying, but couldn't kill anything without taking up way to much time.

    But would it maybe be better, if we had gear back that require you to go with your role in the raid/mythic+? So in this case: Tanks getting defensive-rating, DPS needs hit (or something better) rating and Healer need Spirit to heal effectively. And that as a healer you should focus to heal in a raid but not to dps. And adding back choices to customize gear through enchants but also with gem slots like in tbc.

    I think that many people disliked it that new gear dropped but you couldn't use it on the spot, because you need to enchant, add gems, reforge it before you could swap it out, but is the alternative right now better when you can put gear on, and totally forget about it; because the ilvl is higher or it has more of the rating you need? (and with more enchants right now you already need to wait to put it on)

    And that blizzard should probably care less about borrowed power and go back to make gearing more complex: tinkering with your gear is far more interesting than having a new table where you can customize your borrowed power. (And not in a way where you get azerite bonuses on gear that is so complex that you need to look upon a website what powers are useful or not; because in the end it was the same "table" of borrowed power, just attached to your gear)

    And a bit off topic: add more armor slots! The quiver in 9.1 for example: why replace your cloak with it, this is a perfect example what should be an armor slot just for Hunters. At the beginning maybe a class specific slot just for it: Quivers for Hunters, Librams for paladins and so on; this would also make gearing a bit more complex and could add a way for blizzard to add borrowed power in a way it was since classic, through gear.
    Specs, feeling like separate classes - was one of things, I liked in the past. At the end it provided extra content. Game wasn't ending for you, when you were getting BIS gear for your main spec. You could still do content for offspec gear. But Blizzard hated it and, I guess, there is no way back. I guess, it's mostly due to imbalance between pure DPS classes and hybrids. Hybrids had extra content, while pure DPS didn't.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Gestopft View Post
    1) Tanks DO gain defensive benefit from traditionally 'offensive' stats. DK/Warr/Pal/DH all gain parry from crit, Druid gets dodge, and Monk gets extra healing. Haste adds defensive value through reduced CDs/increased resource generation, etc. Gear still makes tanks more tank-y- just in more roundabout ways that ALSO have offensive bonuses (more on that later)
    Sure they do. They've just simplified the stats down to absolute bare minimum and then made it so they passively give you slight improvements to aspects of your character. In doing so, they also made the items as boring as they could possibly be though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gestopft View Post
    2) You have to keep in mind that there were more reasons than "simplicity" or "ease of switching roles" that led to the removal of defensive stats. Remember "Chill of the Throne" or "Radiance of the Sunwell?" Throughout an expansion, as defensive stats got higher and higher, bosses had to hit harder and harder to actually be dangerous (making tank survival much more RNG based), and by the end of both BC and Wrath it got so out of hand that they had to institute zone-wide debuffs in raids that reduced dodge chance.
    Right, because this never happens with the simplified stats they've moved to? From a tanking standpoint, the only thing that really can get out of hand anymore is HP (which can translate hilariously into other aspects of the game -- e.g., Twilight Devastation nukes) and damage absorbs. They practically design classes to feel like shit until you have enough of these base stats to make your abilities work smoothly in an attempt to counter this kind of thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gestopft View Post
    3) Another reason for the removal of defensive stats also pertained to scaling throughout the expansions. As tanks focused on getting tank-ier, DPS kept focusing on straight damage, meaning that tank damage (and thus threat) fell farther and farther behind DPS as the expansion progressed. They attempted to solve this in MoP with Vengeance, but that had its own set of issues, so the solution that they have settled on since WoD is basically what we have today: tanks use "DPS" stats so that their damage scales accordingly throughout the expansion, and on top of that, tanks get defensive benefits from DPS stats- while also keeping avoidance levels under control.
    Yeah, this was a huge mistake IMO. Tanks are not DPS. They shouldn't play like DPS and shouldn't work like DPS. It's 100% possible to add engaging tank play involving threat generation and active damage mitigation without just making a tank function exactly like a DPS class. The answer to DPS scaling outpacing threat gen is to bake extra threat into abilities and have that scale at a similar rate to DPS. You don't need to tie it into damage output. There are plenty of interesting things they could give tanks to do that don't make them a half-assed DPS class (or in some cases - a crazy AoE DPS class).

    The ultimate point though is that by simplifying the stats down to the bare minimum that ALL classes share with each other, they've watered the game down to a point where one of the absolute core features is boring as all hell. MMOs are largely about item collection. When the items you collect are this boring it just takes so much out of the soul of the game. It makes everything feel bland and worthless. It doesn't help that you then end up having to re-farm the same couple boring items 3-5 times per expansion as their item level is increased either. It's just like pouring salt into the wound.

  16. #56
    Nobody who wants hit or Def rating in the game actually played when they were

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Triden View Post
    then made it so they passively give you slight improvements to aspects of your character.
    This describes literally every item that doesn't have an on-use effect...

    Quote Originally Posted by Triden View Post
    In doing so, they also made the items as boring as they could possibly be though.
    I don't necessarily disagree, but I think that (setting aside "niche" gear like Int Plate etc.) pretty often the more "unique" items were either a) garbage, or b) something you had to farm in later tiers because it was just THAT good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triden View Post
    Right, because this never happens with the simplified stats they've moved to? From a tanking standpoint, the only thing that really can get out of hand anymore is HP (which can translate hilariously into other aspects of the game -- e.g., Twilight Devastation nukes) and damage absorbs.
    You're...sort of making my point for me. Avoidance stacking was not good for the game. It's a lot easier to balance mob damage around high HP or high mitigation uptime than it is to balance them around high avoidance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triden View Post
    Yeah, this was a huge mistake IMO. Tanks are not DPS. They shouldn't play like DPS and shouldn't work like DPS.
    They don't. Using the same stats as DPS or having their damage scale at a similar rate to the DPS doesn't mean that they "play like DPS" or "work like DPS." The same considerations go into tank gearing and play as they always have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triden View Post
    It's 100% possible to add engaging tank play involving threat generation and active damage mitigation without just making a tank function exactly like a DPS class.
    Again- they don't. Using the same gear doesn't mean that they do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triden View Post
    The answer to DPS scaling outpacing threat gen is to bake extra threat into abilities and have that scale at a similar rate to DPS. You don't need to tie it into damage output.
    How does the threat "scale at a similar rate to DPS?" You just...buff threat gen each tier? And I mean....they already tried Vengeance, which had its own issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triden View Post
    There are plenty of interesting things they could give tanks to do that don't make them a half-assed DPS class (or in some cases - a crazy AoE DPS class).
    You mean...like...the active mitigation, defensive cooldowns, and self-healing tools that every tank has?

    Quote Originally Posted by Triden View Post
    The ultimate point though is that by simplifying the stats down to the bare minimum that ALL classes share with each other, they've watered the game down to a point where one of the absolute core features is boring as all hell.
    I mean, if you want to go back to the days of bosses dropping loads of gear nobody could use, you do you. I think it would be cool to add an extra gear slot for quiver/libram/etc. that would have spec-specific effects. But for me, "all classes use the same stats" takes nothing away. What matters more to me is what the stats actually do for the character, not what they are. Does getting new gear make my tank tank-ier? Yes? Then that's fine by me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triden View Post
    MMOs are largely about item collection.
    Disagree. MMOs are about character progression (and customization). Gear is a means to that end.
    Last edited by Gestopft; 2021-05-03 at 10:01 PM.
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  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    Defense and Hit were the least fun stats in the game, no one liked them. They sucked. People hated them. They were reviled. Livid that they existed. They were the bane of everyone - no one liked them. Ever. Not at all. Not even a little bit. It was universally one of the most despised aspects of the gearing system that wound players up to demanding these stats be done away with so that gear could be opened up and people could go for raw power on gear without having to worry about these arbitrary stat goals which, let's be real, were all automated with addons eventually anyway.
    Not sure if this is sarcasm or not but I liked Defense

    People will not ever actively engage with so much crunching of numbers with gear - they'll just get an addon to tell them what pieces of gear they own are optimal to equip, and then whatever interaction you have with the gear gets thrown out the window.
    How is that different than what we do now?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shammyrock View Post
    Nobody who wants hit or Def rating in the game actually played when they were
    Played since BC, I liked Defense ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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  19. #59
    Nah, I don't particularly miss the days of having multiple sets of gear hogging up bag space, not to mention I didn't find defense rating to be a particularly engaging stat, beyond defense 540 it became useless, okay maybe not useless as it still increased block, dodge and parry chance but it was something to the tune of 0.04% per point of defense rating, which still means that pursuing the stat over other stats like stamina beyond defense 540 was pretty pointless.

    Defense as a stat really only mattered when gearing for Naxxramas in early wotlk, beyond that it was so easy to maintain that overcapping defense became more of a hassle than maintaining it consistently throughout the expansion.
    Last edited by Donald Hellscream; 2021-05-03 at 10:24 PM.

  20. #60
    Hard no to Hit, Expertise or Defense. Stats that are absolutely essential until they become worthless suck and are tedious to gear around, especially if poor RNG gives you too few of them early in the expansion or too many later on. I remember getting flooded with them during SoO and hating it, even reforging didn't save me from overcapping Hit.

    Could there be 1-2 more stats? Why not, but they'd need to be different from the rest. Blizzard axed Multistrike because it was just another form of crit (as well as absolute combat log clutter) and I agreed with them. Versa is boring as hell but a valuable stat for tanks and PvP; I don't know if it's better to change it a bit by making it do something besides a flat +% dmg or getting rid of it, but I do feel we need a survivability oriented stat and just removing it wouldn't be good.

    On top of having 1 or 2 extra stats, I also think spicing up the item pool with single or triple stat items would be neat. Every item right now has 2 of a stat, usually from a 50/50 to a 70/30 spread. Blizzard could get a bit more creative on that front. I also think a class-specific slot ala libram for pallies, quivers for hunters, sacred icons for priests or banners for warriors would be really cool not only for flavor but because these could be unique items with class-specific effects. They can handle distribution of such via tokens just like raid weapons are handled now.
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