View Poll Results: Different gear for different role?

Voters
178. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    66 37.08%
  • No

    101 56.74%
  • Not sure

    10 5.62%
  • No opinion

    1 0.56%
Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst ...
3
4
5
6
LastLast
  1. #81
    Bloodsail Admiral
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    1,034
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    Defense and Hit were the least fun stats in the game, no one liked them. They sucked. People hated them. They were reviled. Livid that they existed. They were the bane of everyone - no one liked them. Ever. Not at all. Not even a little bit. It was universally one of the most despised aspects of the gearing system that wound players up to demanding these stats be done away with so that gear could be opened up and people could go for raw power on gear without having to worry about these arbitrary stat goals which, let's be real, were all automated with addons eventually anyway.
    Funny, I rather liked Hit and Expertise, and thought they made gearing a much more interesting process. Some people may have disliked them, but they engaged with gear and gearing up in a way that most people don't any more.

    People will not ever actively engage with so much crunching of numbers with gear - they'll just get an addon to tell them what pieces of gear they own are optimal to equip, and then whatever interaction you have with the gear gets thrown out the window.
    And if people do that, that's no different for them than now. For those of us that cared, gearing these days is really dull. Enchants and gems are simply a power boost, in the case of gems one that's random, like warforging. I miss BC and Wrath gear, with all those lovely sockets, and the choices about socketing to match the colours and get the socket bonus, or to ignore it - sometimes you should do one, sometimes the other.

    There's a reason the Defense and Hit/Exp and Res and Pen and Regen stats and all that went out the window -- they were inferior design, they were automated and not interacted with anyway, they weren't fun, they were a waste of dev/balance time, so they were axed.
    Armour Pen was a problem, but mainly because it was impossible to balance across many specs with widely varying amounts of physical damage, and it also did weird things to PvP balance. The other stats were fine.

  2. #82
    I much prefer clean stats we have now than going back to this soup of nonsense we had before for god knows what reason.

    The most immediate benefit of current stats is that they are simply friendly to new players, you don't have secret caps and shit. Then for everyone else - you don't need to lug 500 items you don't need just to play around hit cap or other silly magic caps.

  3. #83
    Bloodsail Admiral
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    1,034
    Quote Originally Posted by Marxman View Post
    I completely understand why someone would prefer this much simpler gearing system though. Not needing multiple gear sets is really nice for hybrids, and lets people play offspecs somewhat easily (though borrowed power usually being spec-specific blows that up, unfortunately).
    Azerite gear said "You need three pieces for swapping for each spec" right there. Add in 1-2 trinkets and possibly weapons as well and while not as bad as the old days of complete sets, it was still half a set per role, plus 1/2 to a whole set for PvP. SL is quite good in this respect, though if you're serious you might need swap pieces because of differing secondary stat values.

    Having the primary stat just be whatever you current spec needs is fine. Having Crit grant a defensive stat to tanks is also okay. No longer having Hit, Expertise, or Defence makes for much less interesting gearing.

  4. #84
    More gear in the bags.
    If I want to run a offensive tank in +15 or world content but still play a tank, I would need different gear set. Tanks being as rare as it is now, it would not help at all.
    I like tank specific stats, they are nice, but it would have to come as an addition which only work in tank spec and not cost stat budget

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    The most immediate benefit of current stats is that they are simply friendly to new players, you don't have secret caps and shit.
    I think that's a very convenient opinion in favour of the "new" stats.

    Hit nor Expertise were terribly complicated, after all, it's not like Miss and Dodge / Parry were something that a new player never saw before, if you leveled a character, you sure as shit noticed that some of your abilities missed, got dodged or parried.

    It's not like a Hit / Expertise cap are reasonable to reach during leveling or made a massive difference if one somehow managed to actually overcap it.
    You see some Misses / Dodge / parry in your screen => Get some hit / expertise and they occur less frequently, not exactly complicated.

    Of course, in the endgame you need to be aware of caps, but in the same vein, you also need to be aware of stat priorities with the more modern stats and i think there it's where they lose their simplicity.

    That a player on their own figures out you need X% vs. a Boss is about as realistic as a person figuring out that spec X stacks stat Y on their own, unless the toolkit gives some very distinct queues that stat X is very favorable for a given spec (which is also not necessarily true in every case).
    For "both" stats, you need to look up caps or priorities, but i think in the instance of hit / expertise, it's easier to replicate the knowledge onto other characters.

    How much Hit do you need to have no misses versus a boss?
    I think almost any every player in TBC - MoP could have answered that, because the knowledge is universally true for everybody.

    What is the stat priority for spec X?
    No one but the people that have done a modicum of research into a given spec (where it may also vary depending on the situation) can answer that.
    Not to mention that they can easily change with a patch / hotfix, whenever a new build becomes "Meta", not being hitcapped certainly was never the Meta as far as i'm aware.

    Let's be real, how does a new player figure out whether a Ring with Mastery / Vers or Crit / Haste is better for them?
    They don't, they need to look up the stat priorities.

    I'm not saying those stats were awesome, but the arguement of new players falls through for me because Hit / Expertise are so self explanatory and the game itself even answered this later on by providing a basic hit table whenever you mouse overed the hit stat on your character sheet, whereas the stat priorities between Mastery, Crit, Haste and Vers are virtually impossible to figure out without a simulator.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2021-05-04 at 09:18 AM.

  6. #86
    Bloodsail Admiral
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    1,034
    Quote Originally Posted by Xires View Post
    i'd like for them to bring back fun stats like multistrike and armor pen.
    I really disliked Multistrike, for two reasons. Firstly, it was basically just another from of Crit with slightly different things it might proc. Secondly, it was the Elemental Shaman Mastery, so Elementals effectively ended up with two stats (MS and Mastery) doing what had been done my only one before. Now, during the beta Elementals with high MS and Mastery were amazing. Chain Lightning for miles! However, that was deemed to be Fun, and was thus nerfed to hell.

    Armour Pen had real balance problems, tending to be worthless or too good. It also messed up PvP balance between armour types. Taking out Armour Pen and then adding Mastery with its per-spec behaviour was a good move, IMO. However, it does require classes be locked into specs (so none of those vanilla, BC, and LK hybrid builds) unless the Masteries are per-class and very wide ranging (which is likely to make them boring).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Trumpcat View Post
    Whether it's gear or not I prefer to see the roles focused on excelling in their respective field. I dislike the "meta" where a good healer is judged by the damage they do besides keeping everyone alive.

    Unfortunately in the recent interview Ion showed to be embracing the idea. Instead of healing and utility and supportive actions he expressed that the good healer is indeed the one who also dishes damage.
    I used to be that healers were judged by their ability to keep people alive and to manage their mana so that they could do it all fight long. That's why the variety of heals (unless you were a Pally, in which case mana management was mostly about gearing right), and the various ways you could regen mana mid-fight. Work the 5-second rule, use Innervates, etc., and for some specs (pretty much all in Cata), work some attacks in that would return mana. At the time in Cata I thought this was a bad idea, but in retrospect it was really good, though better implemented for some specs than others.

    While I'm asking for a pony, I might as well go the whole distance - I'd also like a healing model where the Shaman Mastery (which I really like) was worthwhile again in raids. It's a life-saver in M+ runs, but in raids the chances of getting a decent heal to land on someone when they're low enough for Mastery to shine is pretty low, so Shamans don't stack Mastery, so the effect is reduced, making it even less impactful.

  7. #87
    It's crazy that so many people voted "yes" to this obvious downgrade. I'm curious to know if these are actual people who ever play multiple specs that would require different sets of gear or just forum theoreticians...

    Collecting completely separate different set of gear just to TRY out your other specs was the biggest pain on earth. No value at all, but lots of downsides.

    ps. And people arguing in favor of hit/def/expertise caps...I've no words man

  8. #88
    Bloodsail Admiral bledgor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,228
    Anyone wanting to bring back hit/defense on gear is on some crazy drugs. That shit was fucking awful, hit was BiS till you hit it, then completely and utterly fucking worthless. It wasn't exciting or engaging, it was you literally land the ability you cast instead of missing, thank fucking god it is gone. Defense wasn't exciting or engaging or fun either, it was you need x amount to not die, and after that it turned into vers basically.

    As for the other defensive stats (dodge/parry/block) I can kind of get, that is you want a different play style, more tank less damage, the only issue is if you put that on gear it makes the gear completely useless to everyone not tank. I'm not sure the best way but I wouldn't mind if they found a method to make it so as a tank you could convert damage into defense directly, that is you are tankier but do less damage. Maybe some stance esq way where you can do a "battle stance" for damage or "defensive stance" for less damage, but I get why they don't as balancing the two would be very frustrating.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  9. #89
    Bloodsail Admiral
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    1,034
    Quote Originally Posted by Shammyrock View Post
    Nobody who wants hit or Def rating in the game actually played when they were
    Wrong. I played when they were. I tanked through BC and I 'DPSed' as Ret when I could. I also kept a Holy set for raiding when we didn't need more tanks (healers were always in short supply for our raids). On top of that, I kept swap pieces so I could sit at the hit and expertise caps for raids and dungeons, and also kept a Ret and a Holy PvP set in BC.

    In LK I mained Ret, sometimes tanked (so had a reasonable tank set - full Defence, Hit, & Expertise, but not a complete tier set), and healed a LOT and so had Ret and Holy tier sets, plus the rest of those sets, plus a Ret PvP set. OH, and I had a Ele/Resto Shaman with Ele and Resto sets as complete as I could make them, PvE and PvP. So yes, I bloody played when Hit, Expertise, and Defence were in the game, and you had to be uncritable and uncrushable if you were to tank as anything but a Bear (they were only expected to be uncritable).

    And you know what? I miss those stats. I miss gemming and enchanting to go on or juuuust over cap, while getting the best out of your socket bonuses, etc. I miss mucking round with a new piece of gear, working out how best to fit it into my gear set, rather than just "it's higher ilevel and doesn't have my worst stat, so on it goes".

  10. #90
    Immortal sam86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    WORST country on earth (aka egypt)
    Posts
    7,658
    yes i want the return of tbc/wrath gear, classic was way too basic, but wrath was way better
    i know ArP was flat out broken status but still return it, just don't put it on every single item, maybe it will be only-gloves status to 'balance' it
    the only thing i hated in wrath with how spirit was beneficial to warlocks and mages, i can't stomach it, specially warlocks
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    Would love a class unique armor slot.

    Quivers
    Sigils
    Totems
    Throwing stars
    Holy symbols

    All kinds of ways to handle it.
    I miss that a LOT, way more than i thought i'd, I LOVED just see those unique items
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    Defense and Hit were the least fun stats in the game, no one liked them. They sucked. People hated them. They were reviled. Livid that they existed. They were the bane of everyone - no one liked them. Ever. Not at all. Not even a little bit. It was universally one of the most despised aspects of the gearing system that wound players up to demanding these stats be done away with so that gear could be opened up and people could go for raw power on gear without having to worry about these arbitrary stat goals which
    pls talk about ppl who don't like RPG aspects in RPG game, because I actually loved the idea of rpg
    don't get it wrong, hit/defense status were annoying, but even annoying are better than flat out remove them and have no rpg replacement for them (which we have now)
    It was always funny when a warlock aggro any mob in a raid and get 1 shot because his defense was in 100 rating due to his pet while lvling XD
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
    Thrall
    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  11. #91
    Bloodsail Admiral
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    1,034
    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    The fact that you do not understand this simple difference, and decide to call out others with silly reasoning, just makes me scratch my head in confusion. Just go play a tank or healer in vanilla to 'experience' this feature request, and figure it out for yourself.
    I don't see anyone asking for +Healing and +Spelldamage.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    No one but the people that have done a modicum of research into a given spec (where it may also vary depending on the situation) can answer that.
    Not to mention that they can easily change with a patch / hotfix, whenever a new build becomes "Meta", not being hitcapped certainly was never the Meta as far as i'm aware.
    There was a time (I think in Cata) where Shadow Priests did not need to be hit capped for maximum DPS. However, the general consensus was that, because adding Hit to cap wasn't a significant DPS loss, and because being hit-capped made managing your DoTs so much easier, you should hit cap.

  12. #92
    Immortal sam86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    WORST country on earth (aka egypt)
    Posts
    7,658
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    And you know what? I miss those stats. I miss gemming and enchanting to go on or juuuust over cap, while getting the best out of your socket bonuses, etc. I miss mucking round with a new piece of gear, working out how best to fit it into my gear set, rather than just "it's higher ilevel and doesn't have my worst stat, so on it goes".
    thank you, i miss the rpg in mmorpg, wow has way too low rpg to be rpg game, it is getting to lvl soon to be as rpg as cod or AC
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
    Thrall
    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Velerios View Post
    First and foremost: i don't want to have gearing like in classic where healers would solo hit like a wet noodle and tanks could tank a lot of mobs and not dying, but couldn't kill anything without taking up way to much time.

    But would it maybe be better, if we had gear back that require you to go with your role in the raid/mythic+? So in this case: Tanks getting defensive-rating, DPS needs hit (or something better) rating and Healer need Spirit to heal effectively. And that as a healer you should focus to heal in a raid but not to dps. And adding back choices to customize gear through enchants but also with gem slots like in tbc.

    I think that many people disliked it that new gear dropped but you couldn't use it on the spot, because you need to enchant, add gems, reforge it before you could swap it out, but is the alternative right now better when you can put gear on, and totally forget about it; because the ilvl is higher or it has more of the rating you need? (and with more enchants right now you already need to wait to put it on)

    And that blizzard should probably care less about borrowed power and go back to make gearing more complex: tinkering with your gear is far more interesting than having a new table where you can customize your borrowed power. (And not in a way where you get azerite bonuses on gear that is so complex that you need to look upon a website what powers are useful or not; because in the end it was the same "table" of borrowed power, just attached to your gear)

    And a bit off topic: add more armor slots! The quiver in 9.1 for example: why replace your cloak with it, this is a perfect example what should be an armor slot just for Hunters. At the beginning maybe a class specific slot just for it: Quivers for Hunters, Librams for paladins and so on; this would also make gearing a bit more complex and could add a way for blizzard to add borrowed power in a way it was since classic, through gear.
    One of the best changes ever was, that you could use gear on different specs. Now i can heal and play moonkin if we need a DPS more than one healer. Otherwise i would have to wait with DPS gear until everyone is geared.
    IF we had e.g. hit and spirit back i would only be ok with it if it also changes with spec. I do not want to have 4 completly different sets of equip back in my inventory or have to reforge again because i have to much/not enough hit. Was a useless function. Everyone just used an addon that reforged it for you to perfection.

    No idea why you made the turn to borrowed power again. Nothing to do with your original topic. We get sets back in some form. So there is that.

    More gear slots? Why not. I always liked relics and stuff like that.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    Work the 5-second rule
    I am imagining the utter awfulness that would ensue if this became a thing again. Blechhh.
    "We must make our choice. We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both."
    -Louis Brandeis

  15. #95
    Pandaren Monk Chrno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Westland
    Posts
    1,864
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    One of the best changes ever was, that you could use gear on different specs. Now i can heal and play moonkin if we need a DPS more than one healer. Otherwise i would have to wait with DPS gear until everyone is geared.
    IF we had e.g. hit and spirit back i would only be ok with it if it also changes with spec. I do not want to have 4 completly different sets of equip back in my inventory or have to reforge again because i have to much/not enough hit. Was a useless function. Everyone just used an addon that reforged it for you to perfection.

    No idea why you made the turn to borrowed power again. Nothing to do with your original topic. We get sets back in some form. So there is that.

    More gear slots? Why not. I always liked relics and stuff like that.
    It seems you prefer a character building process which is a not complex with litle variety in stats and not having to collect multiple gear sets for different purposes (the role you wish to play). Also acquiring gear is a personal making it a much more smooth process where you don't have to rely on others.

    Reading this post i wonder wether you would be ok with it if blizzard did away with gear as a whole basicly creating a level playing field? or limit the amount of a gear / relics you can acquire? Or is it not the level playing field you're after but that you don't want to put in the time/effort to craft you character to be able to preform multiple jobs?
    Warrior, getting my face smashed in because I love it

    "The Perfect Raid Design Drawn by me .

  16. #96
    Elemental Lord Kithelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Somewhere where canon still exists
    Posts
    8,542
    Quote Originally Posted by Monkeymootwo View Post
    I feel like a lot of people didn’t mind one “hit” stat. But needing hit AND expertise was just fucking stupid.

    As far as stats go though what could they even really add? Personally I hated armor pen. Versatility is boring af.

    I know it’s prob near impossible to balance but I wish they made it so you could kinda pick what you wanted. Like as a caster if you wanted to gear for haste to just spam the fuck outta spells that’d be viable but if you instead stacked crit yeah you’d cast slower but they’d hit harder. But it’d be close enough you could just pick what you prefer. That sounds fun to me :P
    I guess I'm odd but I kinda liked multistrike

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrno View Post
    It seems you prefer a character building process which is a not complex with litle variety in stats and not having to collect multiple gear sets for different purposes (the role you wish to play). Also acquiring gear is a personal making it a much more smooth process where you don't have to rely on others.

    Reading this post i wonder wether you would be ok with it if blizzard did away with gear as a whole basicly creating a level playing field? or limit the amount of a gear / relics you can acquire? Or is it not the level playing field you're after but that you don't want to put in the time/effort to craft you character to be able to preform multiple jobs?
    Yeah...because reading a guide or using a mod to tell you what stats are best is SOOOOOO complex
    #WithoutRespectWeReject

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrno View Post
    It seems you prefer a character building process which is a not complex with litle variety in stats and not having to collect multiple gear sets for different purposes (the role you wish to play). Also acquiring gear is a personal making it a much more smooth process where you don't have to rely on others.

    Reading this post i wonder wether you would be ok with it if blizzard did away with gear as a whole basicly creating a level playing field? or limit the amount of a gear / relics you can acquire? Or is it not the level playing field you're after but that you don't want to put in the time/effort to craft you character to be able to preform multiple jobs?
    No i like gear. And i actually would like for gear to be harder to come by. IMHO it is allready again way to easy. But is dislike making thing artificially harder with arbitrary stats just to fullfill a need for more complexity for nothing.
    If they did that i would have all these sets. I would be annoyed because hit was always useless and i have not read a good reason for breaking a system no one really complained about until now suddenly.
    I also don't think aquiring gear is a personal thing but mostly a group effort. And that is good.

  18. #98
    God no, gearing is already miserably slow right now

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    I used to be that healers were judged by their ability to keep people alive and to manage their mana so that they could do it all fight long. That's why the variety of heals (unless you were a Pally, in which case mana management was mostly about gearing right), and the various ways you could regen mana mid-fight. Work the 5-second rule, use Innervates, etc., and for some specs (pretty much all in Cata), work some attacks in that would return mana. At the time in Cata I thought this was a bad idea, but in retrospect it was really good, though better implemented for some specs than others.
    This has literally never been the case, unless you're doing the most casual of content. In old Heroic(Mythic now) healers were CONSTANTLY dpsing, every second that they could, which is the exact same as now.

    The issue is that you need your content to be completable by a wide array of players, which means there's going to be a range of players where the dps and tanks can dodge damage/manage their cooldowns to significantly lessen the healer load, which leads to situations where the good healers will have situations where there is physically no healing they can do. In your "really good" scenario, those healers would what, twiddle their thumbs?

    Hell, Cata was really bad for this, if you played a druid and had pre-raid gear, you literally regened more mana than you could spam out because lifebloom just made your mana infinite.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fascinate View Post
    i find it hard to believe some random raid from BFA would draw in more players than the battleground patch in classic
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    FruitySalad boy, this is a fantastic thread and is really going places. I just want to make sure I'm on page one of what is bound to be a long lasting and productive thread. It's amazing there are no other threads discussing the squish, as I'm confident you would have just posted in them if they did exist.

  20. #100
    Bloodsail Admiral Malania's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Newcastle, UK
    Posts
    1,133
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    Defense and Hit were the least fun stats in the game, no one liked them. They sucked. People hated them. They were reviled. Livid that they existed. They were the bane of everyone - no one liked them. Ever. Not at all. Not even a little bit. It was universally one of the most despised aspects of the gearing system that wound players up to demanding these stats be done away with so that gear could be opened up and people could go for raw power on gear without having to worry about these arbitrary stat goals which, let's be real, were all automated with addons eventually anyway.

    People will not ever actively engage with so much crunching of numbers with gear - they'll just get an addon to tell them what pieces of gear they own are optimal to equip, and then whatever interaction you have with the gear gets thrown out the window.

    And hell, even if you forced addons to not mess with calculating stats on gear, people would just throw character info into sites. So okay, maybe you shut down those sites, then people with better math or more patience to do all the math manually suddenly get an edge in damage-wise. Guilds with those who calculate, what, are they expected to do it for the whole guild now? This kind of angle on Defense and Hit Caps is absurd. There's no good reality that comes around as a result of this. People WILL find a way to game the system and make it unfun for everyone, putting aside that Defense and Hit are insanely unfun just by themselves. But even for people who would normally find any kind of enjoyment in Def/Hit/Exp, others will ruin it for those people as well.

    But, to directly answer the question.
    With Personal Loot in the game, gear can be as specific as it needs to be, when it works (and lord I can't stress that enough).

    That said, for ease of comprehension and simplicity it's probably best there aren't too many different stats to learn.

    The essential secondary stats that are in the game cover nearly all essential ground that is needed as they are.

    Any other class specific interaction can be baked into passives that interact with established stats, so there's no real need to reintroduce other misc stats when a conversion stat passive can do the job.

    There's a reason the Defense and Hit/Exp and Res and Pen and Regen stats and all that went out the window -- they were inferior design, they were automated and not interacted with anyway, they weren't fun, they were a waste of dev/balance time, so they were axed.
    I had no problem with hit as a DPS. Best stat if you don't have enough, worst if you're capped. It just made planning your stats and drops ahead interesting. New item drops with hit which is an upgrade, you can swap off hit somewhere else. I wouldn't mind a return along with reforging.

    All stats are automated, you do not interact with any of them. They're simply a variable in the calculator that the game is.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •