View Poll Results: Different gear for different role?

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  • Yes

    66 37.08%
  • No

    101 56.74%
  • Not sure

    10 5.62%
  • No opinion

    1 0.56%
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  1. #101
    I will admit this game has a few problems but I wouldn't put gear design on the mechanical side very high on that list. Sure I could see a few improvements or wish list items that might make it better or worse but over all its not where I would focus any energy.

  2. #102
    Pandaren Monk Chrno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post

    Yeah...because reading a guide or using a mod to tell you what stats are best is SOOOOOO complex
    nowhere in my post did i say it was or has ever been complex? However, allot of people don't bother with google / spreadsheets and/or addons. So in their eyes it DOES create a form of complexity. You shouldn't forget that allot of people (mostly, but not exclusively, non-raiders) just do 'what feels right' but ultimately have no clue ... some random inspects in stormwind shows this.

    That was why the current system was introduced in the first place. Now people can just look at the item level


    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    No i like gear. And i actually would like for gear to be harder to come by. IMHO it is allready again way to easy. But is dislike making thing artificially harder with arbitrary stats just to fullfill a need for more complexity for nothing.
    If they did that i would have all these sets. I would be annoyed because hit was always useless and i have not read a good reason for breaking a system no one really complained about until now suddenly.
    I also don't think aquiring gear is a personal thing but mostly a group effort. And that is good.
    alrighty, i was just wondering why people are so opposed to having stats on gear Only having itemlevel as a benchmark for what gear is great just feels really dull for me. But i guess it's alright to agree to dissagree

    p.s. There was ALLOT of complaining on these very boards about the stat changes on gear back in the day. As a matter of fact, complaining is what mmo-champ is for right ?
    Warrior, getting my face smashed in because I love it

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  3. #103
    Bloodsail Admiral Alkizon's Avatar
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    Post

    Of course, however, my opinion is not a secret for anyone within the forum.

    Their current system "scales" gear to level/role(=spec) - it takes away control from player. What should be done first? Unscrew roles from specializations (role problem, which link mentions, appear just because of this, violation sequence of hierarchy - wrong design, otherwise "soft role change" will be even easier, just change gear and you're almost tank/heal, may be not perfect one, but quite viable, since those mechanics are always with you, as representative of class), in other words, there is need to rework classes' design back to state of "class is class, a single whole, and not portion of fries from specs". What's the second? Return system of rating characteristics, which allow set desired role by player with kit of characteristics (equipped gear; at the same time, work of these characteristics, as well as stats, in general, is fixed for all game's participants, they give everyone same in a certain amount, which, moreover, can be moderated (add/modify/change) by players through choice of some corresponding talents and gear: if spirit gives regeneration, so it does for anyone, and it doesn't matter at all whether you need it or not, it's your choice, your decision use this particular item, and only you will be responsible for it, but no other "scaling" = changing mechanism), without being tied to either level or specialization. Next, should start cutting out system of scalable rewards, and after it, all scalable stuff from the game. It's not needed, moreover, it's harmful.

    This is if in short.

    - some theses -
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    - equipment is not your class, only bearer of characteristics, specializations (it's more correct to say “talents' build” because "spec" is dead concept) mostly aren't take away or add class mechanics, but only make those or other more preferred to use. The end of story.


    What follows from this? Equipment is carrier of characteristics (about which topic begun to talk, but stoped), characteristics determine your role, and I'm not talking about these wretched, barely tortured three roles and one buried, but about those that you yourself will choose based on set of characteristics and talents, which means that they can't beinteresting” in principle, can't contain any “key class mechanics” = changing class mechanics (don’t even stutter, everything will turn into dolceous AA and its derivatives, also here thoughts about tier gear).
    This part of system will never be normal until game has acquired complete, universal system of characteristics, well-thought and, like all ingenious, extremely simple(+/+). All that they are giving you is not universal, it’s temporary from prospect of taking it from you and changing it equivalently and in a circle, just like “class” affixes in any equipment... type. I don’t even want to delve into it, but you know yourself how much all those systems are trying to overplay, invade, enslave class fantasy from outside, starting with PvP talents and ending with "so interesting" characteristics.
    tl;dr
    1)
    tanking characteristics give bonus to effectiveness of "tanking" abilities (threat/damage/all-forms-of-avoidance), while damage abilities will naturally hit less because you'll have less common useful characteristics, hp-loss/receiving-damage in this case brings strong decrease in threat level without first ones; 2) outgoing heal significantly increases threat's level, and overheal even much stronger; 3) general PvE characteristics (hit/expertise/regeneration; don't confuse with generally useful ones) add efficiency bonus to all abilities for observing parameters of encounter (like soft-timers/resource-depletion/enrage, etc.); 4) resilience primarily affects only interactions between characters (for both having this characteristic: sums up for "supporting each other" abilities - maybe even up to a certain regeneration bonus with positive activity for healing/treating character, subtracted for "acting against" ones - up to significant decrease in effectiveness of recipient's "PvE tanking" characteristics = help attacker to partially ignore them), in other words, it gives that same increase in protection and damage in PvP activity and living without it will be very uncomfortable;
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Chosen characteristics are your role customisation mechanism and gear is its main keeper, so customisation = gear matters.
    No matter how many items of this level exist with different characteristics, the main thing is that you have a controlled choice. Therefore, the more items at your disposal, the more opportunities you have for customization, but since gear=customization, than it remains important.
    - He assumes that everyone chooses a piece of clothing depending on general characteristics he/she prefers for the own role (it could be even rogue tank/support, everything possible, gear is your role not you class, remember DKs from WotLK, that's why guardian/feral fills no problem in been at the same talent branch, but they changed/broke it). They aren't tied to character general progression (= class; unlike silly AA), they are tied to progress in expansion (= gear). And there is no such stupid stuff like many random items on 1 id = scaling to ilvl/lvl/spec (scaling/RNG=automatic=not your choice≈no choice for current system); characteristics are fixed on this particular item (you can disturb them a little with reforging and that's all, than put more effort with professions and here you go - you have all control over your customization):
    You have control over choose which item you need, know where and how get it and how you will custom it.
    - Hail the player, f*ck devs' dictatorship
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    But this exactly is purpose of talents, since classes design implies a completely different kind rather than stupidity that they made of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    There're no classes in their ideal World of design, just 4 (t/h/rdd/mdd) roles and 36 specs with different sets of icons for abilities.
    Ie, hierarchy of choice and gameplay in general was approximately the following (in opposed to current one):
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    racial part goes cross-classes (bonuses, base animations), class' (abilities and mechanics) part goes cross-specs (build = talents), talents' part goes cross-roles, since last one is mostly controlled by “momentary choice”: priority of abilities, used gear and other temporary "progress" stuff
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Technically, what you argue about as part of content is 1. "situational" every second choice + 2. choice that is made within system's work for a fairly long time together (both are parts of one system): 2. is "permanent" not for 1 fight, but for a while before meeting with class trainer together with loosing time and money for "re-qualifies" you (it's class “umbrella”, which consists of full set of class' abilities (mostly permanent completely) and, being overwhelming majority of them passively, talents of build (not spec)) - choice, and 1. consists of equipped items (= characteristics) + particular using spells during encounter - flexible options.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Exactly then it was possible since such system let hybrid classes exist, and what became of them now? What become with all various characteristics that not so much reinforced "absolute" indicators of characters strength, but more players' "role" choice, even if taking into account "holy trinity" (also, this isn't ultimate truth because I repeat - don't forget support, which is 4th)? That is, any class was able to at least partially fulfill not only role assigned to it by devs, and therefore even "holy trinity" based encounters design didn't severely limit group as a whole (unbalanced from current point of view) abilities.

    Even DK, which appeared in WotLK (MoP monks weren't already), still confessed this "religion", because tanking/dd role completely depended on character RPG customization... but now... everything depends on chosen "spec" and no one care what player thinks about it (the whole "role" RPG part is integrated inside it and you can't change anything), we have only one opportunity to play - the way it was decided by Blizzard and nothing else (by the way, "gladiators" part was the only bright ray in dark realm of specs after "design cataclysm" that destroyed everything, but it was just an exception, and what became of them only proves my point).
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    ps. Main advantage of old trees wasn't diversity (although it was, global system allowed to have it, but why? and answer is further), but freedom to choose each/any/little step of progress/castimization elements without violating class priorities. In other words, what was previously part of choice is no longer one = it's spec's default package now, but what was previously available to class as such has become "choice element" and not even everything, but only stuff, that devs decided for this spec... imo, deal is wildly unfair.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    their unpruning now looks incoherent first of all exactly because they're just "pieces" of something big you don't have, which devs still don't want to return to you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    In other words, it's right to know your "general" role and behave correctly, but speaking roles, I have to clarify that there're much more of them (than 3) and that they were hidden in certain selection of talents and characteristics.
    - - - - -
    build + items, I won't go into issue in more detail, think you already understand in general what this is about without my additional comments, we are talking about literal purpose of build and personal "situational rotation" priorities, because it can be battle-heal assist, right? it's just because within framework of current design of encounters, this is often not encouraged/required in any way, but this doesn't mean that it can't be done otherwise
    - - -

    No-no-no! It's necessary to play a class, of course, and if that "customized" set of features and characteristics allows you to do something better, then completing such tasks will become your priority place, where you'll want to shine, but "the whole class" being needed to know and play! And for this, first of all, you need to shake out correct design from devs, but, unfortunately, so far this ain't happening very successful.
    - - -
    This is
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    There are effectively 36 distinct classes.
    Finally! It was officially recognized (exactly this wording)
    the way they made it(+), but not the way it should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Any choice, imaginary or real, "right" or "wrong" must be controlled by player itself, all that can be done by automatic system is to say "OK!" and check spreadsheet ("set in stone") what system's rules are for this case, but not to artificially limit player's choice. Modern system is very restrictive for players, every step is trying to swallow all outcomes "undesirable" in its opinion, but doesn't try to "be correct"/work for every random case right/wrong, good/bad, desired/undesirable (it tries to "fix" (=change) and(or) impose "its own" possible full or partial solution (tries to replace player by self), rules become flexible (as they try to please multiple mutually exclusive systems), and result with each iteration is less certain even for devs themselves). Someone will say that this is impossible, in a sense it's, you can only get as close as possible to, while system should be as simple as possible (as literal as possible), and not provoke multiple dependencies that are controlled by automation systems *looking at all forms of scaling, structure of servers/world/content* you get the idea.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    problem here is more like case described by Bruce Willis' hero here
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    And then you look at what characteristics can help players in choosing their role, which ones will be mandatory for particular sphere of game content, and which are universal, which will be preferable for one role, and which for another... then it goes issue of itemization... and so on, and so on.
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2021-05-07 at 07:31 AM.
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  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrno View Post
    nowhere in my post did i say it was or has ever been complex? However, allot of people don't bother with google / spreadsheets and/or addons. So in their eyes it DOES create a form of complexity. You shouldn't forget that allot of people (mostly, but not exclusively, non-raiders) just do 'what feels right' but ultimately have no clue ... some random inspects in stormwind shows this.

    That was why the current system was introduced in the first place. Now people can just look at the item level




    alrighty, i was just wondering why people are so opposed to having stats on gear Only having itemlevel as a benchmark for what gear is great just feels really dull for me. But i guess it's alright to agree to dissagree

    p.s. There was ALLOT of complaining on these very boards about the stat changes on gear back in the day. As a matter of fact, complaining is what mmo-champ is for right ?
    Then i did not see those threads^^

    I am not opposed to more and more diverse stats. Just making gear useless for another spec again... like spirit and hit in the old sense. If spirit would come back and do more than just give you mp5 you could use it also as say moonkin and feral. Or like a tertiary stat that lets you take less magic damage. Or slow selfhealing infight.
    But if you take away say mastery on a piece and slap mp5 on it it will be useless as a leather piece for everyone but restodrudis. And while it would not be as bad as in the past due to personal loot it could still happen, that you get a piece of armor that no one can use at the second kill. Like druid set pieces in classic. Useless^^
    Give us 2 or 3 new stats. No objections from me. Just... don't make those stats 100% useless for certain specs.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gestopft View Post
    I am imagining the utter awfulness that would ensue if this became a thing again. Blechhh.
    I was giving it as an example of a mechanism that you could play around to manage mana. I was not and do not advocate its return.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    But if you take away say mastery on a piece and slap mp5 on it it will be useless as a leather piece for everyone but restodrudis.
    Poor Mistweavers, always forgotten.

  6. #106
    If you want less tanks and healers available then by all means. Otherwise we need to keep it as easy as possible for people to jump to tanking or healing in order to keep the queue times down. I personally usually play something that can do a secondary role so I can help speed up making groups. If I had to farm full tank gear before doing so swapping from DPS then I would probably just never tank.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    I was giving it as an example of a mechanism that you could play around to manage mana. I was not and do not advocate its return.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Poor Mistweavers, always forgotten.
    Mist.... what?

    True forgot about them^^

  8. #108
    Pandaren Monk Chrno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    Then i did not see those threads^^

    I am not opposed to more and more diverse stats. Just making gear useless for another spec again... like spirit and hit in the old sense. If spirit would come back and do more than just give you mp5 you could use it also as say moonkin and feral. Or like a tertiary stat that lets you take less magic damage. Or slow selfhealing infight.
    But if you take away say mastery on a piece and slap mp5 on it it will be useless as a leather piece for everyone but restodrudis. And while it would not be as bad as in the past due to personal loot it could still happen, that you get a piece of armor that no one can use at the second kill. Like druid set pieces in classic. Useless^^
    Give us 2 or 3 new stats. No objections from me. Just... don't make those stats 100% useless for certain specs.
    I think we can 100% agree on this
    Warrior, getting my face smashed in because I love it

    "The Perfect Raid Design Drawn by me .

  9. #109
    Bruh, it was bad enough carting around a full healing, tank, and dps set god forbid you're a druid :P

  10. #110
    There just needs to be more stats! When there's only 4 stats, and often times Mastery/Vers does the same fucking thing, so only 3 stats, it's boring as hell.

  11. #111
    Warchief Voidism's Avatar
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    If "punishment reduction" stats like hit and expertise doesn't come back and its only positive stats that add something. Choosing between spirit or a raw throughput stat was interesting. More spam or more conserve mana type of gameplay choices. Etc.

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