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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    Has absolutly nothing to do with borrowed power. It doesn't even change much at the core of the class....
    Depends on what level you play.

  2. #42
    It used to. In Vanilla, leveling is pretty brutal.

    Then people whined.

  3. #43
    yeah it should, i'm shocked they have not added a built-in rotation helper even.
    Member: Shadow Lands Alpha Club, Member since 4/9/2020

  4. #44
    Fairly certain this game is designed around LFR level play so it just doesn't matter. The whole game is designed around not being able to fail until social structure judges you from either passing the gate or not on certain difficulty. Most of what it takes to get to that point is watching a video, putting in a little practice to get the memory / situational understanding, and being willing to climb a bit to get there.

    The truth is most people don't want to know how to play. They might want all the rewards that come along with those that can but not actually playing. So some watch a video and never practice or take time to climb up and get mad and say it is impossible. Others depend on talent or past knowledge, practice wrong, and get mad when they get to a point they cannot climb past. But most.. well most never watch a video.. never practice anything.. and refuse to put any time into climbing to get there so they come to places like this and other forums and bitch endlessly about how the game that gives them like 90% of the content for free on a silver platter doesn't do anything for them. When they refuse to do anything for it to get there.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by cuafpr View Post
    yeah it should, i'm shocked they have not added a built-in rotation helper even.
    The game is one step away from being a fucking auto play mobile MMO

  6. #46
    The Patient Ald's Avatar
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    Do you want a better game? A better community? Better players? Or do you want to make lots and lots of money?

    I spent the first 8 hours in my first MMORPG dying repeatedly and losing my level until i learned how to play. I don't think that would fly today, but it should.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    It used to. In Vanilla, leveling is pretty brutal.

    Then people whined.
    In Vanilla half of us barely knew how to play barely any of the mobs required any kind of interrupt you MIGHT need to CC something if it gets hairy and as long as you wern't totally stupid and go head first into something with a big gold dragon or a huge group of mobs you were fine. Nowadays that stuff still kills most people but more of us know how to play and have 15 years worth of gear..

    Hilariously even WITH all that crap a good chunk of 60s STILL barely had any idea how to play.

  8. #48
    Legendary! Frolk's Avatar
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    They tried, but there are too many who are unwilling to be helped, just see how they gave DH interrupt give a dmg buff or resource (forgot which), and most DHs were still not interrupting cause people are B A D and even when being spoonfed will still not learn.

    Back in MoP, there was RMT sites selling Proving Ground Silver boosts, ud let em play the account for u so u could join random HCs, Preach had a video on the world of ppl who did normal 5mans and LFR only, as they were too bad to do silver to do HCs.
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  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Caprias1212 View Post
    There once was a thing that tried to do this, proving grounds.

    Yeah... guess what the reception was and how that one went.
    I thought most people liked it? I liked it. It was a good way to tell if someone actually knew how to play their class/spec, at least at a basic level.

  10. #50
    Legendary! Ealyssa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    I mean they could simply funnel you into a brawlers guild kinda fight once every ten levels to make sure you have the skills down it is easy to do it.
    And what if they can't ? If they are literally so bad at the game they enjoy they just can't interrupt a spell ?

    Should they just stop playing wow because it hurts your feeling that someone is bad at a video game ?
    That's a seriously retarded idea.

    There is place for everyone in WOW. You don't have to play with people you deem unworthy of your superior skill level. But there are zero reason to prevent them access to the game...
    Quote Originally Posted by primalmatter View Post
    nazi is not the abbreviation of national socialism....
    When googling 4 letters is asking too much fact-checking.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Ealyssa View Post
    And what if they can't ? If they are literally so bad at the game they enjoy they just can't interrupt a spell ?

    Should they just stop playing wow because it hurts your feeling that someone is bad at a video game ?
    That's a seriously retarded idea.

    There is place for everyone in WOW. You don't have to play with people you deem unworthy of your superior skill level. But there are zero reason to prevent them access to the game...
    Then they should keep redoing the fight until they beat it or be locked at that level. I find it bizarre to think of a game that doesn't let you lose. To be honest I am not sure it counts as a game at that point.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    Shouldn't skills needed to succeed be taught while leveling? Stuns, interrupts, snares, and proper rotations why is it none of these things are introduced to you as you level as individual skill checks?
    Not everyone wants to level an elemental shaman.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by oldgeezer View Post
    Not everyone wants to level an elemental shaman.
    Then don't make it based around that? I'm not suggesting a mage tower just a basic check.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    It feels like wow's leveling and teaching tools are stuck fifteen years ago.
    Except that 15 years ago the world was actually a lot more threatening and would encourage you to use your kits - sap and hex, throw your stuns in there, pull adds carefully, carry consumables and use your cooldowns, etc. Keep up on your professions for helpful items and buffs.

    Over time it gradually got made more convenient and the player made much, much more powerful compared to their enemies. Cataclysm broke the camel's back with its revamp making enemies completely trivial in every sense, and making the player often 4-5 levels over them in under an hour of visiting a new zone.

    Then for the first time since Cata gutting leveling, 7.3.5 sought to bring leveling gameplay back. Enemies didn't die in 1-2 hits anymore. You took actual damage from being hit. Heirlooms weren't an auto-win button that ruined every random dungeon you joined with a hunter soloing packs 3 halls ahead of you...
    Aaaaannndddd the players revolted completely. The forums were awash with claims that they did it "just to sell boosts!" (despite that patch also introducing 4 new races who you couldn't access their cosmetics if you did boost). People cried out that "casting frostbolt 12 times to kill an enemy is boring!", completely unaware that they have more spells and abilities on their bars than just that one and that procs and rotations exist. No one could tank or heal a leveling dungeon anymore because RAMBOing the place had become so ingrained in their mind. Cries rang out as people were dying to MoP and WoD mobs that were just too strong and were making the game unplayable.

    And thus, out of touch Bli$$ard and Lawyerman Ion did what they always do when they don't listen to the players by listening to every word on the forums and reversed 7.3.5 in a matter of 2 patches to the point where everything was nerfed and gutted back into the ground.

    So yeah... that's why leveling is just you slapping 2 buttons endlessly until hit max and you're getting screamed at for not knowing how to snapshot your dots.
    Last edited by Akibaboy; 2021-05-05 at 01:36 AM.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    The game is one step away from being a fucking auto play mobile MMO
    so adding the option of a built-in rotation helper like many addons do is totally auto play ....
    Member: Shadow Lands Alpha Club, Member since 4/9/2020

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Mysterymask View Post
    In Vanilla half of us barely knew how to play barely any of the mobs required any kind of interrupt you MIGHT need to CC something if it gets hairy and as long as you wern't totally stupid and go head first into something with a big gold dragon or a huge group of mobs you were fine. Nowadays that stuff still kills most people but more of us know how to play and have 15 years worth of gear..

    Hilariously even WITH all that crap a good chunk of 60s STILL barely had any idea how to play.
    Nah, the leveling was just overtuned. Unless you're decked in really good gear as a Warrior you die to 2-3 mobs no matter how well you play. It's simply a matter of numbers. Mobs had too much HP and damage.

  17. #57
    I did die more times in vanilla getting to 20 than in Shadowlands getting to 60. Don't think it's relevant to raiding or dungeons but at least taught something.

    Proving grounds was really fun. A lot of players have to be pretty bad if that was too difficult. Getting to 30 in the Endless Healer during MoP was some of the most fun I had. Don't think WoW will try it again for a long time... Sadly

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Akibaboy View Post
    Except that 15 years ago the world was actually a lot more threatening and would encourage you to use your kits - sap and hex, throw your stuns in there, pull adds carefully, carry consumables and use your cooldowns, etc. Keep up on your professions for helpful items and buffs.
    I still remember some of my leveling experiences back in vanilla exactly because it could be very rough, especially if you were trying to tackle mobs above your level. There was a satyr camp in Ashenvale where I had a quest that was well above my level, and it took me using every trick in the book (spell book that is, ha) to finish the quest by myself. While it was painful at some points and had many deaths in the process, it was a learning experience because it required me to push my limits.

    Fast forward to today's questing content... well, it's basically to the point where you can "Netflix and chill" while leveling in WoW. While I do spend my time trying to figure out my rotation and abilities while leveling up, it's not due to the game encouraging this activity. Rather, it's my experiences from the past when leveling was more difficult that conditioned me to figure out how to maximize my char and figure out what abilities to use.

    What is missing is a need to master your character, as there's usually nothing that's obviously punitive to the player for not performing well. Most metrics that can assist you in figuring out something is even wrong in the first place are 3rd party resources/addons. When it comes to the game's difficulty overall, either what you need to learn to improve yourself isn't obvious or the mechanics are trivial to the point where you can usually ignore them. Unfortunately, there isn't much of a middle ground, so you get some nasty jumps in difficulty on occasion (especially noticeable in raids).

    I can understand why Blizz wants to go towards the softer side of things when it comes to difficulty thrown at the player, and that's because the playerbase and attitudes of players towards games have shifted greatly over 15 years. Finding players that want to learn the in's and out's of the game while putting in the time/effort to do so is becoming harder, while finding players that want a quick in-and-out content experience with maximum reward efficiency are on the rise.

    This is why content such as M+ is on the rise, because in comparison to other forms of content (i.e. raids) it takes less time, effort, and investment to get equivalent rewards. Even with the scaling of M+, I'll even admit that there was a ton of mechanics from certain mobs in dungeons I had no idea how they worked until I started doing +18 keys... all because it never really mattered. Once things matter (which is typically when content gets harder), you have to start using things in your toolkit that you may normally not in order to achieve success. Unfortunately, either people never strive towards difficulty levels that would force them to improve their gameplay because it's either not rewarding and/or the playerbase mentality just embraces quitting or moving on to other things that would reward for less effort.

    Personally, I've found WoW much less engaging as time goes on exactly because I don't feel challenged in any good way. Either the game is super easy that I just auto-pilot through the content, or I get frustrated that it's becoming harder and harder to find players who will actually trying to tackle what difficult content there is. While the general mentality of the playerbase has shifted in a direction that doesn't promote learning and improving, Blizz is just as complicit in fostering said mentality. It may yield short-term gains of people getting in, retention in the long-term will probably not look good.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
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    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  19. #59
    I never understood this argument. The game does teach you. Every few levels u gain a skill. The skill has text on it that tells u what it does.

    It says it stuns the enemy and u don't know what that does? Use the ability and find out. Even puts a nice debuff on them lol.

    What is there that u need the game to teach u? Its all there

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    Maybe because this is exactly how the player base has treated it since at least TBC?

    I remember when I started playing this game back then, players would tell me the game didn't even start till level cap.

    Blizzard's just been listening to the community.
    The game still doesn't start until the level cap. How is that Blizzard listening?

    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    I never understood this argument. The game does teach you. Every few levels u gain a skill. The skill has text on it that tells u what it does.

    It says it stuns the enemy and u don't know what that does? Use the ability and find out. Even puts a nice debuff on them lol.

    What is there that u need the game to teach u? Its all there
    Handing something to someone and telling that someone what it does is not teaching that someone when and how to use it.
    Last edited by Azure653; 2021-05-05 at 10:58 AM.

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