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  1. #61
    if one wants to improve they will improve. if one seeks for players equal as good or better as yourself they will find them. if one seeks for players worst then they are, they will also find those. you get what you want and seek.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Azure653 View Post
    The game still doesn't start until the level cap. How is that Blizzard listening?



    Handing something to someone and telling that someone what it does is not teaching that someone when and how to use it.
    But that's the game lol. U are given the tool. U are told what the tool does. Then you master the tool by practicing.

    How wld it teach h when and how to use it according to you?

  3. #63
    Scarab Lord Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodyleech View Post
    Ahh, good old proving grounds.. Needing just silver to get into Heroics. The crying was so hilarious! So many people were not able to deal with the simpliest mechanics.
    Imo they should bring it back, just to get rid of people who can't even press more than 1 button. No need for them to get into heroics anyways.
    Wasn't it just silver for to be able to queue for a random heroic? Like you could still heroic if you manually made a group and did things the old fashion way? And people not standing in fire has been a problem with the game for a while. Like that is the simplest mechanic as it is literally move out of this area and it's cousin don't move out of this area.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    But that's the game lol. U are given the tool. U are told what the tool does. Then you master the tool by practicing.

    How wld it teach h when and how to use it according to you?
    I'm aware that that's what the game does. That doesn't make what it does teaching.

    One way would be to have something similar to what happens when one boosts a character or makes a trial character. Another would be to expand upon the proving grounds. I'm sure there are other ways as well.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Azure653 View Post
    I'm aware that that's what the game does. That doesn't make what it does teaching.

    One way would be to have something similar to what happens when one boosts a character or makes a trial character. Another would be to expand upon the proving grounds. I'm sure there are other ways as well.
    I guess that's where we disagree then. I consider that teaching. I think doing more is too handholding and players would come to expect that too much.

  6. #66
    Stood in the Fire BrintoSFJ's Avatar
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    Sadly... very sadly... I have played several mobile "mmorpg" that do far better job at teaching players about what to do with their class than WoW does... for example, once players get a new skill, they immediately starts a tutorial zone to teach players how and when to use the skill, if players are inside a story or group instance, the games wait until the instance is done to start tutorial... I know it is a messy way to do thing but at least they try but I see no such attempt from WoW.
    Warcraft 3 Reign of Chaos was the game that brought me into gaming. I was 17 years old then, I abhorred gaming before this game. From then on, I became a fan of Warcraft and Blizzard. To see it all go down the drain like this is truly sad for me. No king rules forever but at least some of them went down in history as real badasses. I hoped Blizzard and Warcraft would be one of them but it is no longer possible.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    If you were required to interrupt and stun mobs during leveling, the blind and deaf grandma that doesn't have hands would complain.
    Never thought there were so many blind and deaf handless grandmas on MMO-C.

  8. #68
    What is there to teach? You have a spell that interrupts spellcasting, or stuns the enemy, or slows movement speed, its all in the spell description. If you don't bother reading it, doesn't mean the rest didn't. Abilities drop every few levels, so you have the time to test them in then open world yourself. You get a bloody notification in chat that says what spell you got, the spells that aren't on your bars are highlighted in the spellbook. The game gives you the necessary tools to learn, you can use them, but you aren't forced to. Why? Because so many people level alts and already know how to play, and they want fast and efficient levelling. Imagine putting them into a forced tutorial scenario. And if you make it optional, try to guess how many will turn it off. My guess is 99% of people.

    You are talking about simple abilities that are there free to use. Knowing WHEN to use them and on what opponent (PvE and PvP) comes from practice or watching streams/guides, its part of the split second decision making skillset or pre-planning that can't be taught with a tutorial. All of the endgame has a difficulty slope, you can start at the lowest and climb up thus increasing the skill requirement and necessity of CC abilities.

    As for rotations - there's guides made for you at every step - forums, websites, discord, youtube, twitch, addons. There's so much material accessible to everyone, that there's no point in Blizzard trying to do the same (and we know they will not make it good). The rotations are pretty simple to figure out by players themselves, its all about keeping buffs/debuffs/dots, resurce builders and spenders, CDs, AoE and ST abilities. You can do normal raiding, mythic 2-10 (even 15s if you have a brain) and RBGs without touching a single third-party guide.

    Proving grounds tho were so much fun and getting the 'endless' achievement was challenging to some extend. Mage tower also had people utilise their full toolkit or some rarely used abilities. Horrific visions also had you on your toes at least until the first 5 mask clear (although it wasn't balanced well enough between specs).

  9. #69
    Brewmaster Malania's Avatar
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    You generally learn your class as you level, rotations etc. But without punishing mechanics that can 1-2 shot you, they can't really force you to learn the more advanced things. That's not friendly for new payers if you want to retain them. If they don't understand an interrupt and get 1 shot, they'll feel powerless and less motivated to stay etc. Let's not forget some casts and abilities can't be stopped and if all you've read is "interrupts" and it doesn't work, you're going to think you're doing it wrong.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Kilpi View Post
    Never thought there were so many blind and deaf handless grandmas on MMO-C.
    Ud be surprised. Theres 3 types of ppl on here. World first everything, blind deaf grandmas without hands, and then me the only person who is exactly where everyone should be

  11. #71
    Light comes from darkness shise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    I never understood this argument. The game does teach you. Every few levels u gain a skill. The skill has text on it that tells u what it does.

    It says it stuns the enemy and u don't know what that does? Use the ability and find out. Even puts a nice debuff on them lol.

    What is there that u need the game to teach u? Its all there
    Indeed, but people don´t want to read.
    It is like quests: most of them are self explanatory, but reading it? meh.

  12. #72
    They should just add some named quest mobs with OS mechanics if not controled or interupted. With a 4 seconds cast so it's not hard to miss. And they do it only once so your abilities are not on cooldown no matter the class.
    Same with a visible high damage aoe doing like 3/4 of life. One that you know 4 seconds before where it will pop.
    It won't be hard but teach the basics. And people will quickly get used to kick or dodge "just in case".

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    Food for thought... why is there such a massive skill chasm in wow when it comes to content above heroic at end game?

    Shouldn't skills needed to succeed be taught while leveling? Stuns, interrupts, snares, and proper rotations why is it none of these things are introduced to you as you level as individual skill checks?

    It feels like wow's leveling and teaching tools are stuck fifteen years ago. I guess the question I want to pose is the following.

    Should you be able to hit level cap without understanding all the tools in your classes kite? Shouldn't leveling be where you start to learn your class rather then before you decide you want to complete heroic raiding or mythic content?
    You were watching asmon I see. After giving it a little thought, honestly I am going to say no that you shouldn't be taught to use your toolkit. This is more of a game developer problem in my opinion. If you created a game where you never needed to use your countering tools, defensives, proper rotations and what not. You should've been doing this through needing to do these things out of the necessity to survive during gameplay leveling up. Not through being taught from a scenario or teaching tool. As for skills and rotations. If a player doesn't have the time to do some basic reading comprehension for their abilities. That's not Blizzards problem.

  14. #74
    I am Murloc! Lord Pebbleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caprias1212 View Post
    There once was a thing that tried to do this, proving grounds.

    Yeah... guess what the reception was and how that one went.
    Proving Grounds were tons of fun, it was super easy to get silver (the requirement for heroics), and it took MAYBE 10 minutes. Gold and endless were just for fun and achievements. I especially liked the You Are Doing It Wrong achievement for clearing gold with the wrong spec.

    The response from the community was embarrassing. People were angry at the mandatory chore like it was their new 8-hours a day job. Some people had the nerve to complain that they could not pass silver.
    We have seen a similar trend recently with the Slime Serpent mount, with people being angry that they cannot get it with a snap of the fingers and accusing Blizzard of willingly keeping people out of the loop (what?). And that is for a mount that is completely optional to character progression unlike old Proving Grounds...

  15. #75
    All they need to do is have some mobs that maybe should hit harder. There doesn't need to be any specific tutorials or guides.

  16. #76
    Make leveling at least one month process and only after you killed 1mil mobs that one shot you with a single uninterrupted spell be allowed to step into a dungeon.

  17. #77
    I mean Blizzard never managed to make leveling interesting in WoW. Not now, and not in 2005 either. It was slightly engaging during vanilla for someone who is new to MMOs and think that his huge open world is actually full of interesting storylines, mysteries to discover in that cave over there, or dangers. But turns out its mindless mob zerging, the only difference is nowadays its much faster and more guided but still just as boring. Running out of mana after 3 casts and having mobs artificially hit harder doesn't make classic leveling interesting either. What this game lacks is actual RPG with choices to make, differents leveling paths other than mindless killing of mobs for a random NPC quest giver,etc.. and of course content that makes uses of the full toolkit of your class, not just 1-2-3.

    And this is something that is clearly not the priority of Blizzard (never been, they always care about endgame raiding and pretend to care about pvp). I'm not confident on them ever making huge structural changes to this process as since shadowlands you can blast through levels so quickly it means that blizzard have abandoned the notion of leveling being anything more than a time-wall for end game.

  18. #78
    I am Murloc! Selastan's Avatar
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    No, because WoW isn't ABOUT snares/interrupts etc. That shit is there IF you want to learn it, but the focus of WoW should be immersive storytelling.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodyleech View Post
    If you want to level efficiently, yes, you do use all of your abilities. If you pull one for one, ofc not.

    Na, you did not use "all your cds every pull" - you literally do not have many cds, especially as warrior, some being minutes long on CD.
    Minutes? I recall the major CD literally being half an hour long (shield wall, and similar dps one) at some time in the long gone past.

  20. #80
    Bloodsail Admiral Pakheth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    I guess that's where we disagree then. I consider that teaching. I think doing more is too handholding and players would come to expect that too much.
    I compare your method of learning to being given a piece of wood and a knife. You know the knife is sharp and can cut the wood but you haven't been learned how to hold the knife safely or how it can be used effectively.
    And sadly, not everyone are as quick to figure out things on their own. Some handle it better than others.

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