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  1. #41
    Flying do not belongs into mmo games it was pure example of how players again loved it for its covinience and completly ignored all the negattive impact it will have on the game.

  2. #42
    There are so many items in game that allow you to explore and traverse inaccessible areas without having flying. Between toys and exploits you can go pretty much anywhere.

    They would need to remove the content until flying is unlocked for everyone, because players will figure out how to get there without flying. In which case, it's just normal gating.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Master Guns View Post
    Am I the only one who thinks that special areas that you can't visit unless you are able to FLY to them? Imagine a huge fortress in the sky, a vendor somewhere you can't reach unless you fly, something like that?

    I think that Blizzard should re introduce flying specific destinations, especially considering that flying in SLands is gated behind just regular content and isn't a rep grind this time, it's apart of the campaign story.
    This metroidvania-like system would work only if flying wouldn't be gated behind arbitrary time-gates. Because content gated behind flying + time-gated flying = time-gated content. You know. New content is gated by patches anyway. We don't need flying for this.

    I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.

  4. #44
    Scarab Lord Master Guns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    This metroidvania-like system would work only if flying wouldn't be gated behind arbitrary time-gates. Because content gated behind flying + time-gated flying = time-gated content. You know. New content is gated by patches anyway. We don't need flying for this.
    I really don't understand this mentality or why you think this is bad lol.

    The content that would be available through flying wouldn't be in the game UNTIL flying is in the game..so what's the issue? That's not time gating content. The content wouldn't just be up there in the sky for no one to reach until flying was available. The content would be readily available when the flying is introduced, and the content would also not be mandatory content since not everyone gets flying, unless blizzard also made that change.

    I legit see no issue with this. Wouldn't bother me at all, because it's not bothersome..

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  5. #45
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Master Guns View Post
    Am I the only one who thinks that special areas that you can't visit unless you are able to FLY to them? Imagine a huge fortress in the sky, a vendor somewhere you can't reach unless you fly, something like that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    I mean I bloody loved the world from TBC to end of Mop due to how much I could explore by flying. Its one of the things I miss now that blizz has decided it can't handle flight properly anymore.

    The world felt big and expansive and mine to explore.

    Now everything feels so small and constricted, and yeah there's nothing to fly too anymore because nothing is designed with it in mind anymore.

    Way to ruin one of the unique appeals of this game.


    Ah, so you mean like in Burning Crusade, the best expansion ever, which released today after much anticipation, or like in Wrath of the Lich King, the best expansion ever, that people await classic versions of with baited breath? Wherein flying was utterly integral to the late-game including zones and daily areas that were inaccessible without flight? (Inb4 someone comes in here trying to argue that Icecrown glacier or Storm peaks was "traversible on foot if you really wanted it.")

    Yes, Blizzard should absolutely, 100% be designing content around flying. A spiritual, reality-warping concept like the shadowlands would have been rife for floating chunks of reality and islands of the afterlife but sadly their arbitrary time-gating and commitment to listening to among the most petulant of WoW's minority playerbases, the "no flying" crowd, means we're stuck with time-gated flying and frankly the whole expansion is made a lot more dull by the lack of it.


    I've said it a million times before and I'll say it a million times again: the game world is not meant to be challenging, nor should it be. The repetitive nature of WoW's non-raid and dungeon progression (it's always been repetitive, and has had basically the same codified daily progress system since Burning Crusade with very few tangible changes since.) Artificially lengthening the time to do repetitive tasks is NOT fun and is NOT rewarding, nor does making players DO that additional menial travel on foot add in any way to the game.

    You know how I know traveling on foot isn't fun or rewarding? Because the second people can avoid doing it, they avoid doing it.


    Resisting the way the game should be, and indeed was for four expansion cycles, by forcing players to play in a way that does nothing tangibly good for the game save but temporarily satiate a few whiners is and remains bad game design.

    Quote Originally Posted by Low Hanging Fruit View Post
    Dude imagine how much faster you can get to world quests in Shadowlands. It's like the best content in the game and flying just serves it up to you!




    /s
    I mean, if I have to do it I'd rather do it fast and as painlessly as possible, rather than adding the additional step of running around ducking the same pissant mobs trying to daze me for the umpteenth time to chase whatever mcguffin power quantity blizzard thinks up for each expansion.

    Like I said above dailies aren't meaningfully different than they were when they were introduced in Burning Crusade. Clearly this is not a system that Blizzard has ideas on how to innovate on. So not having flying in the hopes of "encouraging them to make things more interesting to keep players engaged" is clearly not going to happen.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I feel like this is one of those cases where people might just be split on how flying impacts it. But I always felt like simply being able to mount up and go there with no difficulty cheapened the experience. Getting to the top of Mount Neverest in Kun-lai for the first time was fun because you needed to find the correct mountain trail and dodge obstacles. Simply flying up there doesnt have even close to the same effect.
    Similarly I always found that secret areas are more fun if they are designed to be difficult to get to. Simple things like getting to Gul'dans boss room in the outdoor version of Suramar was really satisfying when it required me to carry the really good glide ability all the way from Trueshot lodge to the top of Highmountain before the timer ran out to get to a high enough vantage point that I could get where I wanted.
    I disagree, and I think Kun'lai is actually a good example of why the game is better with flying, vis-a-vis what it allows the devs to comfortably do and implement.

    Because Kun'lai ain't a mountain. It's a zone on a slight incline that starts as a hilly brown plain that abuts a slightly higher hilly rocky area with snow draped over it and a couple impassible scenic little mountaintops interspersed throughout. Outside of... one... quest chain where you hustle up to the peak, the geography is pretty inconsequential and bland.

    Now Storm Peaks? THAT'S a freakin' mountain. NO zone has come even remotely close to matching Storm peaks in terms of scale, especially since the advent of "no flying until we feel like it." In fact I would love to see a zone designed on the scale of storm peaks with the level of fidelity Blizzard is able to implement these days.
    Last edited by Kaleredar; 2021-06-02 at 06:41 AM.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Ah, so you mean like in Burning Crusade, the best expansion ever, which released today after much anticipation, or like in Wrath of the Lich King, the best expansion ever, that people await classic versions of with baited breath? Wherein flying was utterly integral to the late-game including zones and daily areas that were inaccessible without flight? (Inb4 someone comes in here trying to argue that Icecrown glacier or Storm peaks was "traversible on foot if you really wanted it.")

    Yes, Blizzard should absolutely, 100% be designing content around flying. A spiritual, reality-warping concept like the shadowlands would have been rife for floating chunks of reality and islands of the afterlife but sadly their arbitrary time-gating and commitment to listening to among the most petulant of WoW's minority playerbases, the "no flying" crowd, means we're stuck with time-gated flying and frankly the whole expansion is made a lot more dull by the lack of it.


    I've said it a million times before and I'll say it a million times again: the game world is not meant to be challenging, nor should it be. The repetitive nature of WoW's non-raid and dungeon progression (it's always been repetitive, and has had basically the same codified daily progress system since Burning Crusade with very few tangible changes since.) Artificially lengthening the time to do repetitive tasks is NOT fun and is NOT rewarding, nor does making players DO that additional menial travel on foot add in any way to the game.

    You know how I know traveling on foot isn't fun or rewarding? Because the second people can avoid doing it, they avoid doing it.


    Resisting the way the game should be, and indeed was for four expansion cycles, by forcing players to play in a way that does nothing tangibly good for the game save but temporarily satiate a few whiners is and remains bad game design.



    I mean, if I have to do it I'd rather do it fast and as painlessly as possible, rather than adding the additional step of running around ducking the same pissant mobs trying to daze me for the umpteenth time to chase whatever mcguffin power quantity blizzard thinks up for each expansion.

    Like I said above dailies aren't meaningfully different than they were when they were introduced in Burning Crusade. Clearly this is not a system that Blizzard has ideas on how to innovate on. So not having flying in the hopes of "encouraging them to make things more interesting to keep players engaged" is clearly not going to happen.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I disagree, and I think Kun'lai is actually a good example of why the game is better with flying.

    Because Kun'lai ain't a mountain. It's a zone on a slight incline that starts as a hilly brown plain that abuts a slightly higher hilly rocky area with snow draped over it and a couple impassible scenic little mountaintops interspersed throughout. Outside of... one... quest chain where you hustle up to the peak, the geography is pretty inconsequential and bland.

    Now Storm Peaks? THAT'S a freakin' mountain. NO zone has come even remotely close to matching Storm peaks in terms of scale, especially since the advent of "no flying until we feel like it."
    I can only support this to 100%. Especially the part of the open world and "challenges". That was OK for Classic, where open world was also the endgame for many players. Its not okay for any other part of WoW's life anymore.

    You have to have in mind that the open world should be accessible to anyone, regardless of skill or gear. And its skill and gear that make the world challenging or not. Flying makes things more convenient, but not easier or harder. You still have to go on the ground and fight your quest mobs, and fight on nodes if there are mobs nearby or anything like that (even with the exceptions of druids and Sky Golems when picking flowers). You just save a bit of time when skipping obnoxious terrain or mobs on your way which are totally irrelevant to your gaming experience except of being a huge ANNOYANCE. Nothing more. People who think that flying makes the world not dangerous anymore should check if they play so badly.

    I would be insulted if anyone would say to me that I should view the open world as a challenge. I can finish 60 group quests all by myself, grouping only speeds this up, because you don't have to fight for tags that much. If I want challenge, I go into m+ or arena or raids. Period.

  7. #47
    Scarab Lord Master Guns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post

    I guess you mean the area with the Drakeriders in TBC and the dailies associated with them?
    That's exactly what I mean

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  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    I wonder what areas you are talking about? IIRC you got flying at 76 in WotLk otherwise you couldn't quest in the last zones (and couldn't much do there on foot anyhow) - and even in MoP you could get Loreaster by walking / riding to the most remote locations. Many ppl probably just didn't bother, because you could do it in 1 hr with flying.

    I don't know...to me this always seem that the inconvenience of old x-pac with time and nostalgia turns into "loved the world due to how much I could explore" - any what ever is done today is as hated as much as the same things were hated on release back then. And make no mistake, especially MoP got his fair share of abuse (for many reasons...not only places being hard to reach)
    It was 78 in wrath I believe.

    As to where? I don't know. I didn't need a special place. It was fun just landing on the castles, the mountains, the air ships, finding random stuff. Seeing the world from any vantage point I wanted to. I enjoyed the immersion of flying to a raid or dungeon (before the queues took over). It provided an experience few other games did. It may sound silly and imprecise, but you could describe it as the same thrill that drove humanity that wanted to fly for ages.

    The convenience of flight actually made me feel like doing lore master as it made them less of a chore. They aren't difficult, nor even terribly time consuming, but its another thing which just feels not worth the effort otherwise. But honestly convenience i could care less about. I flew instead of flight paths whenever possible, even when I didn't have 'good' flying in TBC.

    Flight paths are considerable more dull so I just afk out. Its effectively just a really annoying loading screen.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Master Guns View Post
    Am I the only one who thinks that special areas that you can't visit unless you are able to FLY to them?
    I hope u are the only one.

  10. #50
    Scarab Lord Master Guns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantazma View Post
    I hope u are the only one.
    Somebody didn’t read the thread replies apparently

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  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Master Guns View Post
    Somebody didn’t read the thread replies apparently
    Not the first time he's been wrong as seen by his post history.

  12. #52
    I am still baffled why players actually like flying. It is the most uninventive, uninteresting, non-immersive means of flying in any game supposedly claiming to be a game.

    The kind of flying we have in WoW would be considered something for dev mode in any other game. It is literally just giving the player the ability to move in an extra dimension, it doesn't factor in momentum, takeoff, inertia or stamina. It is simple unconstrained movement in a game where traversing the landscape is actually an a factor at all.


    Why can't we have flying that is actually an option alongside other forms of content. One that requires basic knowledge of how it works beyond jump button for up, angle camera down and forward to go down.

    Content based around flying is deprecated because the developers realized that it made all other content, and even the content it opened almost moot already as traversing the landscape became almost entirely a non-factor.


    There is simply no gameplay that becomes apparent with flying. In almost any other game the ability to unlock flying should give the player MORE gameplay, not less.

    When you unlock flying in GTA it still means you have ground content because flying is actually a gameplay mechanic, and balanced and such. When we get flying in WoW it simply means the developers have capitulated and decided the open world content no longer matters, simply because some players throw a hissyfit over having to actually play the game.


    Make flying in WoW an actual mechanic, or remove it completely. As it stands it is a momentary fun gimmick that only tolls the death of that expansion's open world exploration. No more environment based treasures, no more creative use of game mechanics. No more need for items like goblin gliders. Just throw away the Twigin treats you made as a Necrolord, because flying is here, and it's time for the open world to become tiny and pointless instead of grander and full of life.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  13. #53
    I'm they should just go to easy access flying expensive-ish .. but accessible by anyone without being gated behind rep grinding or other content.

  14. #54
    Scarab Lord Master Guns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I am still baffled why players actually like flying. It is the most uninventive, uninteresting, non-immersive means of flying in any game supposedly claiming to be a game.

    The kind of flying we have in WoW would be considered something for dev mode in any other game. It is literally just giving the player the ability to move in an extra dimension, it doesn't factor in momentum, takeoff, inertia or stamina. It is simple unconstrained movement in a game where traversing the landscape is actually an a factor at all.


    Why can't we have flying that is actually an option alongside other forms of content. One that requires basic knowledge of how it works beyond jump button for up, angle camera down and forward to go down.

    Content based around flying is deprecated because the developers realized that it made all other content, and even the content it opened almost moot already as traversing the landscape became almost entirely a non-factor.


    There is simply no gameplay that becomes apparent with flying. In almost any other game the ability to unlock flying should give the player MORE gameplay, not less.

    When you unlock flying in GTA it still means you have ground content because flying is actually a gameplay mechanic, and balanced and such. When we get flying in WoW it simply means the developers have capitulated and decided the open world content no longer matters, simply because some players throw a hissyfit over having to actually play the game.


    Make flying in WoW an actual mechanic, or remove it completely. As it stands it is a momentary fun gimmick that only tolls the death of that expansion's open world exploration. No more environment based treasures, no more creative use of game mechanics. No more need for items like goblin gliders. Just throw away the Twigin treats you made as a Necrolord, because flying is here, and it's time for the open world to become tiny and pointless instead of grander and full of life.
    That was probably the silliest rage fest I have ever read. Absolutely in no way do you represent the majority of players.

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  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Master Guns View Post
    That was probably the silliest rage fest I have ever read. Absolutely in no way do you represent the majority of players.
    It's a vocal minority everyone laughed at for years until Blizzard realized they could cut development costs by restricting flying in relevant content.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Nah nah, see... I live by one simple creed: You might catch more flies with honey, but to catch honeys you gotta be fly.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Master Guns View Post
    Somebody didn’t read the thread replies apparently
    Oh my God. Do we have more people who want to spend half their time in this life just to access a quest??

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Calfredd View Post
    Not the first time he's been wrong as seen by his post history.
    There are 60.000 religions around the world.
    There are more than 1.000.000 Gods spread in these religions.
    So no matter what "post history" you are following... the vast majority will always be "wrong".

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    I wonder what areas you are talking about? IIRC you got flying at 76 in WotLk otherwise you couldn't quest in the last zones (and couldn't much do there on foot anyhow) - and even in MoP you could get Loreaster by walking / riding to the most remote locations. Many ppl probably just didn't bother, because you could do it in 1 hr with flying.
    This is actually false as you absolutely could quest in Storm Peaks and Icecrown without a mount. The intro quest for Storm Peakshad you go to the flight master and it took you to K3. All of their quests were on the ground and available with out flying and the zone as a whole could be traversed on foot.Icecrwon started with the Argent Vanguard grounds starting once again at the flgiht master and you got a pile of quests there without flying.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by oplawlz View Post
    It's a vocal minority everyone laughed at for years until Blizzard realized they could cut development costs by restricting flying in relevant content.
    This is completely and utterly false.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Master Guns View Post
    That was probably the silliest rage fest I have ever read. Absolutely in no way do you represent the majority of players.
    Neither do you.

  18. #58
    The truth about flying in WoW:
    at TBC Blizzard realized that people just loved being able to fly. Blizzard at first didn't realize how much people loved it as if they were flying in real life. The proof that Blizzard hadn't realized this is that in TBC to fly you just had to reach maximum level and spend something like (5k gold?).
    But a few days later Blizzard noticed it...
    ...so Blizzard turned it into an expensive (very expensive) item.
    so expensive that you can't just buy it with money. Blizzard wants something more expensive than any money from you. it wants your time.
    Now, just think about it:
    Some people here argue with me because I would like to see the Dark Ranger class. "But Dark Ranger would not have the slightest logic as a class since we have the Hunters".
    About logic: WHAT IS THE LOGIC IN YOU HAVING A FLYING MOUNT BUT CANNOT FLY IN AN NEW AREA BECAUSE YOUR REPUTATION IS NOT EXALTED THERE??? HAHAHAHAHA....
    Imagine not being able to visit Dysney World because Mickey Mouse doesn't know you. hahahahah... jesus ppl. Just stop.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Master Guns View Post
    Am I the only one who thinks that special areas that you can't visit unless you are able to FLY to them? Imagine a huge fortress in the sky, a vendor somewhere you can't reach unless you fly, something like that?

    I think that Blizzard should re introduce flying specific destinations, especially considering that flying in SLands is gated behind just regular content and isn't a rep grind this time, it's apart of the campaign story.
    Blizzard already did this in Burning Crusade. All of the Tempest Keep instances required flying to access. Flying was even a requirement for Karazhan attunement because you had to complete the Arcatraz as part of the quest chain.

    It wasn't a good time.

    You know what else wasn't a good time? Forcing players to complete every single reputation, quest and exploration milestone in an expansion just to unlock the ability to fly.

    It's frankly sad that Blizzard took away a core feature of the game that had always been present since TBC and repackaged it as a lazy completion bonus.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    Flying do not belongs into mmo games it was pure example of how players again loved it for its covinience and completly ignored all the negattive impact it will have on the game.
    A fantasy universe without flying is not a fantasy universe.

    Maybe it didn't belong in Star Wars MMO, but it's absolutely vital in a Warcraft setting.
    Fact (because I say so): TBC > Cata > Legion > ShaLa > MoP > DF > BfA > WoD = WotLK

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