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  1. #61
    Immortal FuxieDK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    Flying do not belongs into mmo games it was pure example of how players again loved it for its covinience and completly ignored all the negattive impact it will have on the game.
    A fantasy universe without flying is not a fantasy universe.

    Maybe it didn't belong in Star Wars MMO, but it's absolutely vital in a Warcraft setting.
    Fact (because I say so): TBC > Cata > Legion > ShaLa > MoP > BfA > WoD = WotLK

    My pet collection --> http://www.warcraftpets.com/collection/FuxieDK/

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by oplawlz View Post
    It's a vocal minority everyone laughed at for years until Blizzard realized they could cut development costs by restricting flying in relevant content.
    I guess this is true in the sense that Cata showed that the way to "design content around flying" was to just make zones stupidly large and not bother with actually designing zones to be effectively playable from the ground. Just place everything 1 minute of flying apart so players don't realize how inane the mechanic actually is.

    Theme park argument or not, I find it hard to believe those that enjoy open world content would serioussly argue that zones look lazier than before. Ever since MoP zones have been teeming with life, treasures and easter eggs. Zones being designed to be small and compact in a way that makes them feel larger than they actually are does actually require skill, unline simply placing large amounts of open space between everything.

    And even beyond that, open world content has had a renneisance since flying was removed in WoD. Aviana's feather is fondly remember to this day by those that used it, Legion actually had enviromental puzzles, BfA actually managed to revitalize the open world PvP that had died a slow death ever since TBC.
    Treasures can now be hard to find from a gameplat perspective, not just difficult to find in parsing where the WoWhead link said it is, movement options are worth considering, learning to consider how a zone is designed actually has merit.


    Zones are actually designed as places where gameplay happens near constantly, not just areas to level in and then skip past idly with autorun flying when you reach max level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    A fantasy universe without flying is not a fantasy universe.

    Maybe it didn't belong in Star Wars MMO, but it's absolutely vital in a Warcraft setting.
    The flying we have in WoW is one of the most detrimental things the developers have added though. There is no depth to it, no gameplay offered, no fun ways to exploit its mechanics to do something interesting with the game.

    No other game gives players flying this overwhelmingly convenient. Even Just Cause requires players to at least ensure you don't fly straight into a mountain to your death. The aspect of flying that requires the most skill in WoW is knowing that you are at risk of dying of fatigue if you use autorun and fly off the edge of a continent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Master Guns View Post
    That was probably the silliest rage fest I have ever read. Absolutely in no way do you represent the majority of players.
    A lage chunk of players would also mindlessly accept changes that are blatantly unhealthy for the game long-term if they feel it works in their favor short term.

    Most importantly though the players that want flying are almost overwhelmingly saying they want it because they openly proclaim they don't want to engage in the open world content. They are unironically saying that the World part of World of Warcraft is unimportant to them and that they would rather just skip all that stuff about you know, actually palying the game.


    Flying is a momentary fun activity that is incredibly unhealthy for the game. As evidenced in that enviromental puzzles and fun easter eggs lose almost all their meaning the moment it becomes available.
    It is convenient, but convenience doesnt mean it is good gameplay. When you see a treasure hidden behind a large amount of elites, flying doesnt give you a new gameplay option of overcoming the challenge, it simply removes it. And the reason we are made to put up with it is because players are admitting that they don't want to play this part of the game.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I guess this is true in the sense that Cata showed that the way to "design content around flying" was to just make zones stupidly large and not bother with actually designing zones to be effectively playable from the ground. Just place everything 1 minute of flying apart so players don't realize how inane the mechanic actually is.

    Theme park argument or not, I find it hard to believe those that enjoy open world content would serioussly argue that zones look lazier than before. Ever since MoP zones have been teeming with life, treasures and easter eggs. Zones being designed to be small and compact in a way that makes them feel larger than they actually are does actually require skill, unline simply placing large amounts of open space between everything.

    And even beyond that, open world content has had a renneisance since flying was removed in WoD. Aviana's feather is fondly remember to this day by those that used it, Legion actually had enviromental puzzles, BfA actually managed to revitalize the open world PvP that had died a slow death ever since TBC.
    Treasures can now be hard to find from a gameplat perspective, not just difficult to find in parsing where the WoWhead link said it is, movement options are worth considering, learning to consider how a zone is designed actually has merit.


    Zones are actually designed as places where gameplay happens near constantly, not just areas to level in and then skip past idly with autorun flying when you reach max level.

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    The flying we have in WoW is one of the most detrimental things the developers have added though. There is no depth to it, no gameplay offered, no fun ways to exploit its mechanics to do something interesting with the game.

    No other game gives players flying this overwhelmingly convenient. Even Just Cause requires players to at least ensure you don't fly straight into a mountain to your death. The aspect of flying that requires the most skill in WoW is knowing that you are at risk of dying of fatigue if you use autorun and fly off the edge of a continent.

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    A lage chunk of players would also mindlessly accept changes that are blatantly unhealthy for the game long-term if they feel it works in their favor short term.

    Most importantly though the players that want flying are almost overwhelmingly saying they want it because they openly proclaim they don't want to engage in the open world content. They are unironically saying that the World part of World of Warcraft is unimportant to them and that they would rather just skip all that stuff about you know, actually palying the game.


    Flying is a momentary fun activity that is incredibly unhealthy for the game. As evidenced in that enviromental puzzles and fun easter eggs lose almost all their meaning the moment it becomes available.
    It is convenient, but convenience doesnt mean it is good gameplay. When you see a treasure hidden behind a large amount of elites, flying doesnt give you a new gameplay option of overcoming the challenge, it simply removes it. And the reason we are made to put up with it is because players are admitting that they don't want to play this part of the game.
    Except not having flying actively discourages a lot of people from doing content because it takes too long to get to where they want to go.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  4. #64
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    This is actually false as you absolutely could quest in Storm Peaks and Icecrown without a mount. The intro quest for Storm Peakshad you go to the flight master and it took you to K3. All of their quests were on the ground and available with out flying and the zone as a whole could be traversed on foot.Icecrwon started with the Argent Vanguard grounds starting once again at the flgiht master and you got a pile of quests there without flying.
    Fair enough....it was a long time ago..and I guess I forgot. So cheers for clearing it up. Yeah..that K3 rings a bell.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    Except not having flying actively discourages a lot of people from doing content because it takes too long to get to where they want to go.
    Then why have them do it at all?

    This is like arguing that old reputations need to have the ability to just skip way ahead because the effort to gather the reputation is boring. Besides, the content is obsolete anyways.

    If someone doesnt want to engage in a certain set of content then just don't have them engage in it. All dungeons and raids have a summoning stone, and I find it hard to believe that in a raid group of players there are not 2 players that are willing to brave the horrible run from the nearest flight path.


    Mind you, I wouldnt necessarily even mind that much if flying in WoW wasnt so agressively boring. There is absolutely no gameplay that flying offers that requires even the smallest amount of skill. walking up a mountain at least requires the player to find the path up, flying takes even that and completely trivializes it.

    Again, why is it so sacrosanct to ask that flying at least doesnt invalidate ground mounts. Even Just Cause manages to incentivize players to take a car instead of a plane, and in that game you can spawn jetplanes in anywhere.

    Flying in WoW is only the barest step above making WoW a lobby game, and it's maddening that players actually think this is the version of the game they should champion.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  6. #66
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    Except not having flying actively discourages a lot of people from doing content because it takes too long to get to where they want to go.
    Where do ppl want to go though? Oh..it is max level. Now..I wonder where is that game that abandons levelling?

    I wonder...I wonder... ..how any x-pac would fare where you are immediately max level...or where there is no levelling.

    Two scenarios:
    -you are immediately thrown into a raid with the gear you have...figure it out ...and then ..basically fuck off because you don't care...because there is no context to anything
    -you have to go through a story that prepares you for the raids to follow...only you spend something like 20 hrs experiencing it (slogging through it) without any break in the form of...well..levelling up or something.

    At the end of the day...flying or no flying...discouraged or not..you have to do the content to get to max level.

    And that is before the whole discussion on whether the game would be more awesome if it never had flying. At this point you should know the deal. It is explained to you beforehand and it has been explained to you for several x-pacs. And here is the deal:

    You quest on the ground for half a year, then with the x.1 patch you do chores to unlock flying. If you still need to bitch about that one...I seriously have to inquire how dense ppl are to be still annoyed about it. It is literally laid out to us through alpha, beta and devs explaining it. YOU WILL BE QUESTING ON THE GROUND FOR SIX MONTHS, And the have to do stuff to fly. If it sooooo pisses anyone off...do us all a favour and just find another game instead of spilling tears for ...what is it? six years on this forum?

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Where do ppl want to go though? Oh..it is max level. Now..I wonder where is that game that abandons levelling?

    I wonder...I wonder... ..how any x-pac would fare where you are immediately max level...or where there is no levelling.

    Two scenarios:
    -you are immediately thrown into a raid with the gear you have...figure it out ...and then ..basically fuck off because you don't care...because there is no context to anything
    -you have to go through a story that prepares you for the raids to follow...only you spend something like 20 hrs experiencing it (slogging through it) without any break in the form of...well..levelling up or something.

    At the end of the day...flying or no flying...discouraged or not..you have to do the content to get to max level.

    And that is before the whole discussion on whether the game would be more awesome if it never had flying. At this point you should know the deal. It is explained to you beforehand and it has been explained to you for several x-pacs. And here is the deal:

    You quest on the ground for half a year, then with the x.1 patch you do chores to unlock flying. If you still need to bitch about that one...I seriously have to inquire how dense ppl are to be still annoyed about it. It is literally laid out to us through alpha, beta and devs explaining it. YOU WILL BE QUESTING ON THE GROUND FOR SIX MONTHS, And the have to do stuff to fly. If it sooooo pisses anyone off...do us all a favour and just find another game instead of spilling tears for ...what is it? six years on this forum?
    Doesn't change the fact that some people are actively discouraged doing content. Where's my portal to Oribis? Behind anima grind. How do I get the most of it the quickest? WQ. Where are they? Spread all around the map behind mountains and in hard to get to places. Fuck that. Too much travelling. This game is boring. I seem to spend most of my time travelling. *Unsubscribe*

    The game should be about doing content, not being discouraged to do it because some artist wants to force the world on me for 6 to 13 months. I've seen it all in 1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Then why have them do it at all?

    This is like arguing that old reputations need to have the ability to just skip way ahead because the effort to gather the reputation is boring. Besides, the content is obsolete anyways.

    If someone doesnt want to engage in a certain set of content then just don't have them engage in it. All dungeons and raids have a summoning stone, and I find it hard to believe that in a raid group of players there are not 2 players that are willing to brave the horrible run from the nearest flight path.


    Mind you, I wouldnt necessarily even mind that much if flying in WoW wasnt so agressively boring. There is absolutely no gameplay that flying offers that requires even the smallest amount of skill. walking up a mountain at least requires the player to find the path up, flying takes even that and completely trivializes it.

    Again, why is it so sacrosanct to ask that flying at least doesnt invalidate ground mounts. Even Just Cause manages to incentivize players to take a car instead of a plane, and in that game you can spawn jetplanes in anywhere.

    Flying in WoW is only the barest step above making WoW a lobby game, and it's maddening that players actually think this is the version of the game they should champion.
    If you want to use your ground mount then use it. I'm not saying you can't. But I want my flying mount and having it makes it more likely that I will do content. Travelling should not be a barrier to content.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  8. #68
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    Doesn't change the fact that some people are actively discouraged doing content.

    The game should be about doing content, not being discouraged to do it because some artist wants to force the world on me for 6 to 13 months. I've seen it all in 1.
    So at the end of the day it is about "some people" and "the game should be about" ?

    Fair enough...I am not a dev...but devs disagree. If y'all still play a game you hate the design of...that is on you.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    Doesn't change the fact that some people are actively discouraged doing content. Where's my portal to Oribis? Behind anima grind. How do I get the most of it the quickest? WQ. Where are they? Spread all around the map behind mountains and in hard to get to places. Fuck that. Too much travelling. This game is boring. I seem to spend most of my time travelling. *Unsubscribe*

    The game should be about doing content, not being discouraged to do it because some artist wants to force the world on me for 6 to 13 months. I've seen it all in 1.

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    If you want to use your ground mount then use it. I'm not saying you can't. But I want my flying mount and having it makes it more likely that I will do content. Travelling should not be a barrier to content.
    Sure I could not use ground mounts. Just like I could play Pokémon with nuzlocke rules to give myself a challenge, but that wouldn't fix the problem, just hide it.

    Besides travelling is part of the content. That is why zones are designed to incentivize different forms of travel, as well as accentuate different means of movement.
    Throwback Ng all that away because some players would rather WoW be a lobby game seems horribly reductive.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

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