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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    Denathrius would be my guess. Or they can always reveal that Silas Darkmoon is evil.
    This reminded me what a humongous waste it was not to have Silas Darkmoon be N'zoth. The Nyarlothep riff was looking at them right in the face and instead all of those vibes were relegated to an admittedly pretty fun Hearthstone expansion.

    I wouldn't mind Denathrius giving a bigger role, but let's face it, we all know who sells more figurines.

    In any case, this sets them up to that hamhanded redemption by way of soul split story that fucks the character about as hard as if she'd just stayed a one-note baddie, but in a way that lets them better hide that in her absence no one in the cast would be able to generate any interest or move the plot along. The mere confirmation she'd live with zero new content spawned pages on this forum doing an extremely quiet period in just a few hours.

    @BaumanKing

    You'd be completely right in a plot where the main Azerothian cast weren't just mute vessels there to carry basic moral messages with only the supporting cast allowed to have any features. The main problem is that the cast at present is completely and totally reactive. In a parallel universe where Sylvanas doesn't show up to trigger the expansion but instead trips on a rock and breaks her neck on the way to the LK the story would basically end there because everyone else exists in a vegetative state of peace with everyone else. The problem with such a cast is that they're very boring to follow and this is why the game quite wisely ditches them to focus on the Shadowlands characters who might as well be from a different game and while by no means deep are at least marginally entertaining and lack baggage.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    It makes sense to loot Sylvanas's bow from her "corpse".

    Note how "corpse" is put into quotation marks ^^ - IMHO it doesn't confirm her death...actually quite the opposite.
    It's already pretty much confirmed that she's not going to die. Her evil side, maybe. But her good side will live on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    If you loot the bow from her corpse but she doesn't somehow die then how that will work? Did she faint like a Pokemon?
    Azshara didn't die either.

    Quote Originally Posted by BaumanKing View Post
    Tbf, the Alliance had great candidates like Genn, Jaina, Alleria, Tyrande. Well, before they were completely domesticated. You know, after Danuser's comments that Azeroth is a place of love and acceptance, I wonder if Warcraft as a franchise is turning into a Star Trek-like utopia. Azeroth will of course still have serious problems like hostile interstellar powers and horrific threats to deal with, but no interpersonal conflicts between two factions.


    *Cringe*.... Hell to the no.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terrorthatflapsinthenight View Post
    Sylvanas isn't going to die for good until the very end of the expansion, better late than never because I am really tired of her story now.
    Tell me about it. She's been the main character for 3 expansions now.
    Commenting on these forums is like walking on eggshells - you never know where the next infraction is gonna come from.

  3. #123
    The Lightbringer Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I wouldn't mind Denathrius giving a bigger role, but let's face it, we all know who sells more figurines.
    .
    Sadly, yes. Granted there is still Azshara. If it takes a hentai protagonist to end the Sylvanas "story" we've got that covered.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Tell me about it. She's been the main character for 3 expansions now.
    There are strange positions and then there's the bafflingly large number of people claiming that Sylvanas is the main character in Legion, where she shows up for one fraction of one zone, or of BFA, when she's a plot device with zero personality except cartoonish villainy who exists to tell us how great Anduin, Sadfang or Calia are.
    @Wangming

    It'd be a massive waste not to capitalize on Azshara. She was one of the few characters in BFA who was at least entertaining and managed to carry some pretty poor plot points.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-06-27 at 01:41 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    This reminded me what a humongous waste it was not to have Silas Darkmoon be N'zoth. The Nyarlothep riff was looking at them right in the face and instead all of those vibes were relegated to an admittedly pretty fun Hearthstone expansion.

    I wouldn't mind Denathrius giving a bigger role, but let's face it, we all know who sells more figurines.

    In any case, this sets them up to that hamhanded redemption by way of soul split story that fucks the character about as hard as if she'd just stayed a one-note baddie, but in a way that lets them better hide that in her absence no one in the cast would be able to generate any interest or move the plot along. The mere confirmation she'd live with zero new content spawned pages on this forum doing an extremely quiet period in just a few hours.

    @BaumanKing

    You'd be completely right in a plot where the main Azerothian cast weren't just mute vessels there to carry basic moral messages with only the supporting cast allowed to have any features. The main problem is that the cast at present is completely and totally reactive. In a parallel universe where Sylvanas doesn't show up to trigger the expansion but instead trips on a rock and breaks her neck on the way to the LK the story would basically end there because everyone else exists in a vegetative state of peace with everyone else. The problem with such a cast is that they're very boring to follow and this is why the game quite wisely ditches them to focus on the Shadowlands characters who might as well be from a different game and while by no means deep are at least marginally entertaining and lack baggage.
    You think that all current Alliance and Horde characters are trash, maybe it's because Blizzard devoted 3 CGI cinematics to showcasing how cool and badass Sylvanas is. Maybe you'd change your mind if they gave one or two CGI cinematic revolving around Alleria or Turalyon or Velen, just saying. Like of course these characters seem boring when Blizzard constantly focuses on the same character for years. And don't tell me that Sylvanas wasn't the focus when she's literally the poster child of both BfA and Shadowlands.

  6. #126
    The Insane Thage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    There are people actually surprised by this.
    That anyone can be surprised over the writers reliably picking the dumbest and worst route from A to Z possible after BFA is the real surprise here.
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    There are strange positions and then there's the bafflingly large number of people claiming that Sylvanas is the main character in Legion, where she shows up for one fraction of one zone, or of BFA, when she's a plot device with zero personality except cartoonish villainy who exists to tell us how great Anduin, Sadfang or Calia are.
    @Wangming

    It'd be a massive waste not to capitalize on Azshara. She was one of the few characters in BFA who was at least entertaining and managed to carry some pretty poor plot points.
    She appeared in the Cinematic Trailer for 3 consecutive expansions.

    If you like Azshara, go have a look at my Ancient Kalimdor thread:
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...mdor-Expansion
    Commenting on these forums is like walking on eggshells - you never know where the next infraction is gonna come from.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    You think that all current Alliance and Horde characters are trash, maybe it's because Blizzard devoted 3 CGI cinematics to showcasing how cool and badass Sylvanas is. Maybe you'd change your mind if they gave one or two CGI cinematic revolving around Alleria or Turalyon or Velen, just saying. Like of course these characters seem boring when Blizzard constantly focuses on the same character for years. And don't tell me that Sylvanas wasn't the focus when she's literally the poster child of both BfA and Shadowlands.
    We had five cinematics of Sadfang. Would you say you are dramatically satisfied by his stimulating and complex arc? We followed Jaina through a punishingly long series of questlines on both factions. Soon you will likely have a stimulating time watching Sylvanas learn the same lesson those two did - that love and peace are the way and that all personal qualities are holding you back and through the same vector Sadfang and Jaina had, that being Anduin.

    It's a good thing you bring up Velen because Velen is much more relevant to Legion than Sylvanas or pretty much any Horde character in that expansion since god knows how irrelevant they are and I've praised that arc before. Everything from him realizing who Rakeesh is and having to kill him to his confrontations with Talgath and KJ both challenge his character and develop him from there, without sacrificing who Velen is as a person.

    @username993720

    Yes, and one zone. Velen, Illidan, Khadgar even Odyn are more relevant to Legion than she is and have far more screentime. She gets less screentime in the pre-BFA book than an interracial goblin-gnome couple and the expansion itself focuses on Saurfang and Jaina to a much higher degree with Saurfang alone having a higher number of cinematics than she does purely from one expansion. Sylvanas does not develop or have any narrative focus on her own characterization, she's just a blunt instrument to oppose other characters. Morally she faces no issues in BFA as she's 100% diesel-powered evil. Physically she faces no issues because she gravitates from being a mouthbreathing retard to playing 13D underwater backgammon in every scene, ensuring no element of the audience is satisfied.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-06-27 at 01:59 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    @username993720

    Yes, and one zone. Velen, Illidan, Khadgar even Odyn are more relevant to Legion than she is and have far more screentime. She gets less screentime in the pre-BFA book than an interracial goblin-gnome couple and the expansion itself focuses on Saurfang and Jaina to a much higher degree with Saurfang alone having a higher number of cinematics than she does purely from one expansion. Sylvanas does not develop or have any narrative focus on her own characterization, she's just a blunt instrument to oppose other characters. Morally she faces no issues in BFA as she's 100% diesel-powered evil. Physically she faces no issues because she gravitates from being a mouthbreathing retard to playing 13D underwater backgammon in every scene, ensuring no element of the audience is satisfied.
    She's appointed Warchief and is responsible for the entire Broken Shore misunderstanding?
    Commenting on these forums is like walking on eggshells - you never know where the next infraction is gonna come from.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    She's appointed Warchief and is responsible for the entire Broken Shore misunderstanding?
    Disregarding that she isn't responsible for the Broken Shore misunderstanding, the total time and cinematic count that takes is equal to that of Genn. She just gets that focus in 7.0 when she gets the job whereas with Genn does so in 7.2 when Anduin goes to look for his father's remains. Both have the exact same amount of quest focus before that since it's mirrored between Alliance and Horde in Stormheim and both take big roles on the Broken Shore.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    We had five cinematics of Sadfang. Would you say you are dramatically satisfied by his stimulating and complex arc? We followed Jaina through a punishingly long series of questlines on both factions. Soon you will likely have a stimulating time watching Sylvanas learn the same lesson those two did - that love and peace are the way and that all personal qualities are holding you back and through the same vector Sadfang and Jaina had, that being Anduin.

    It's a good thing you bring up Velen because Velen is much more relevant to Legion than Sylvanas or pretty much any Horde character in that expansion since god knows how irrelevant they are and I've praised that arc before. Everything from him realizing who Rakeesh is and having to kill him to his confrontations with Talgath and KJ both challenge his character and develop him from there, without sacrificing who Velen is as a person.

    @username993720

    Yes, and one zone. Velen, Illidan, Khadgar even Odyn are more relevant to Legion than she is and have far more screentime. She gets less screentime in the pre-BFA book than an interracial goblin-gnome couple and the expansion itself focuses on Saurfang and Jaina to a much higher degree with Saurfang alone having a higher number of cinematics than she does purely from one expansion. Sylvanas does not develop or have any narrative focus on her own characterization, she's just a blunt instrument to oppose other characters. Morally she faces no issues in BFA as she's 100% diesel-powered evil. Physically she faces no issues because she gravitates from being a mouthbreathing retard to playing 13D underwater backgammon in every scene, ensuring no element of the audience is satisfied.
    Your logic is flawed. You keep thinking that "screentime" equals to "relevance", which is not the case. I didn't deny that Saurfang had more cinematics than Sylvanas (and that was also criticized a lot in the past), but it is a fact that all of BfA is about Sylvanas and how she started a war, the Horde civil war is also centred around Sylvanas and how she broke the Horde, she is the main antagonist essentially. N'Zoth is treated as a complete after-thought, don't tell me that N'Zoth wasn't rushed and doesn't feel like an after-thought compared to the faction war. Then we have Shadowlands which is completely centred around Sylvanas' actions (which are the catalyst of the expansion) and will feature her redemption arc (after many years of crimes and atrocities by the way).

    It doesn't matter if Sylvanas doesn't have a lot of screentime outside of cinematics because she has been the driving force for 2 expansions now, 3 if you count Stormheim, which was indeed a major zone of Legion.

    People are simply tired of seeing and hearing about her, is it too much to ask for Sylvanas to be gone never to be seen again? Or do we need the third expansion in a row kickstarted by Sylvanas' actions?

  12. #132
    aaaaaand thread goes to hell xd
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    They had no prior build-up and instead tried to leech off of already established things people are familiar with. The Scourge? Maldraxxus did that. The Lich King? The Jailer did that. Frostmourne? The Runecarver made that. Sargeras corruption by demons and everything resulting from that? Also the Jailer's plan.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Smallfruitbat View Post
    Cut off her head, burn her phylactery, burn the body and scatter the ashes in space -AND even then, they would find a way to bring her back.
    Well yeah, you didn't destroy the ashes. Even DKs can raise Ghouls with Corpse Dust.

    If you really wanna uncreate someone in WoW you also gotta get rid of all their belongings, their Anima, any books or relics written about them or ruins that reference them, their relatives, animal companions, the people who remember them, all those people's things and Anima, and destroy it all as utterly.

    And I guess also The Player Character would remember, so that memory would have to be pulled out and destroyed.

    When it comes to magic in WoW it's very hard to cometely remove all traces of people that can potentially interact with magic to bring them back.

    And oh yeah there's multiverses versions to take care of, too.

    If someone were really going on such a monumentous quest to completely erase someone from every multiverse that'd be a long questline.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Your logic is flawed. You keep thinking that "screentime" equals to "relevance", which is not the case. I didn't deny that Saurfang had more cinematics than Sylvanas (and that was also criticized a lot in the past), but it is a fact that all of BfA is about Sylvanas and how she started a war, the Horde civil war is also centred around Sylvanas and how she broke the Horde, she is the main antagonist essentially. N'Zoth is treated as a complete after-thought, don't tell me that N'Zoth wasn't rushed and doesn't feel like an after-thought compared to the faction war. Then we have Shadowlands which is completely centred around Sylvanas' actions (which are the catalyst of the expansion) and will feature her redemption arc (after many years of crimes and atrocities by the way).

    It doesn't matter if Sylvanas doesn't have a lot of screentime outside of cinematics because she has been the driving force for 2 expansions now, 3 if you count Stormheim, which was indeed a major zone of Legion.
    Screentime and narrative relevance are interlinked and don't just relate to the events of the plot, but also the thematic and character beats in question. You inadvertedly demonstrate this when you bring up N'zoth. I've bitched no less than you have how the vacuity of the narrative makes N'zoth an afterthought in an expansion where he's the last boss, since he has zero role in initiating the war and the actual climax occurs in a cutscene well before we encounter him in the raid. If you look at the story on paper you'll see that freeing N'zoth threatened the world and that he also engineered a whole host of other events in the plot and how 8.2 leads into 8.3 by having Azshara set him free. But this will not give you any greater appreciation of these characters because they're then unceremoniously ushered to exit stage left. N'zoth is shafted in his own expansion because the thematic climax of the story is Sadfang first declaring that the Horde was always shit to Anduin and then, with symbols of both Alliance and Horde in hand fighting Sylvanas who ree-s out, whereas he, despite the entire back-half of the expansion being put into him being free and wreaking havoc, has zero thematic relation to the story and no character cares about him.

    So far so good, where you're wrong is that Sylvanas is closer to N'zoth than she is to the main characters. Much like how Azshara and N'zoth capitalize on the events of everything going on yet ultimately go nowhere, Sylvanas is a main instigator of this drama, but she has no arc of her own. She appears solely as a tool of conflict to get other characters to develop. She's an obstacle of Saurfang and Jaina's stories, not a character in her own right. Saurfang has a moral quandary, seeks help from other parties, overcomes his demons and ultimately completes his journey. Jaina lets go of her entirely reasonable dislike of the Horde (in a monumentally unconvincing way) and reconciles with her family. Sylvanas does things and then exits stage left, with those actions giving us no meaning or insight into her character past hinting at what caps of her might show up in the Blizzard gear store to sell. That's partly why the story related to her is so poor - she is all over the marketing and exists to create buzz and sell content, but she's unsatisfying to watch because she's a device for other stories.

    The Legion thing I've already covered. Sylvanas is less relevant to the Legion plot than fucking Dargrul, since at least he's connected to the main plot. She doesn't even appear again after 7.0. She's the equivalent of Genn.

    People are simply tired of seeing and hearing about her, is it too much to ask for Sylvanas to be gone never to be seen again? Or do we need the third expansion in a row kickstarted by Sylvanas' actions?
    I'd entirely agree with you that I'd very much prefer the next expansion be set out by anyone else, but that would require the writers to make any other character capable of instigating any development in the plot and they're all static husks who have everything they could possibly want and would sing kumbaya if left to their own devices. They're dramatic dead ends and they've been turned into such on purpose. Until Blizzard become willing to give them any kind of dynamism, the plot and discussion of the plot will continue to center on Sylvanas' next 2 minute appearance giving cliche evil threats. Or now in Shadowlands, her trying to have some kind of arc and failing because the writers put zero groundwork into it.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-06-27 at 02:49 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  15. #135
    The current bad writing problem.
    It is that Sylvanas does not have camera time so Sylvanas fans do not zenith that it has development.
    But at the same time, everything happened through and for Sylvanas, so the Hetters of Sylvanas are tired of her.

    That's great blizzard writing. Come up with a way to piss everyone off equally.

    (If I'm both now. Don't ask how XD)

  16. #136
    Great. Some characters get too much spotlight and their writing inevitably ends up suffering. Happened to every major character that had "extended" periods of development time. Thrall, Garrosh, Anduin, Sylvanas, probably others I haven't listed. Maybe I'm just bias but I don't remember the lore pre-WoW being so terrible.

    She's always supposed to be this bigger than life, mysterious character, but the way it is written is done so poorly that it's hard to think of it that way. It doesn't help that she constantly was "as powerful as she needed to be" with offscreen powerups that, rather than being written and explained, were written to be obscured and not told, because she was so MYSTERIOUS and STRATIGICAL that we just couldn't know about it! That is, at least by my definition, terrible of a way to write that kind of character.

    But don't worry, this morally grey character that doomed countless lives and committed genocide secretly was doing it for the greater good, and doesn't deserve to die but rather, gain redemption in the future! Waifu power.
    Last edited by La; 2021-06-27 at 03:31 PM.
    *Insert every single ridiculous PC parts detail here that no one cares about*

  17. #137
    People are shocked that blizzard writers continue to fail at basic story telling? this isn't news, it would be news if they actually wrote something of quality

  18. #138
    The Lightbringer Maljinwo's Avatar
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    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  19. #139
    Blademaster dfsdfvh's Avatar
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    It fills my heart with joy IF Blizzard actually has the gut to kill her off. But we all know it's not gonna happen, but it seems pretty clear that Sylvanas will be defeated and humiliated after the raid. So I guess I can live with that.
    Alleria Windrunner's BIGGEST fanboy. Will defend her no matter what!

  20. #140
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfsdfvh View Post
    It fills my heart with joy IF Blizzard actually has the gut to kill her off. But we all know it's not gonna happen, but it seems pretty clear that Sylvanas will be defeated and humiliated after the raid. So I guess I can live with that.
    i don't, i want her deleted from wow
    and all signs show she won't die, with '2 souls' bullshit idea
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
    Thrall
    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

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