Great Vault, Random? No Way

[kranur]

RNG is RNG. You can even get only bracers for the rest of the expansion. The probability for that to happen is very low, but possible.

I only looted the vault about 7 times and didn't get a duplicate slot.

[Yakut]

RNG is RNG. You can even get only bracers for the rest of the expansion. The probability for that to happen is very low, but possible.

I only looted the vault about 7 times and didn't get a duplicate slot.

I got two trinkets in my vault from Heroic CN yesterday. Though, they weren't the same ones (One was a 213 Glyph of Assimilation, the other was a 220 Cabalist's Hymnal). It does give me an idea though.

If the odds are not based on the slot as such so much as how many potential items there are for a spec to get, the pool could be substantially larger than just the slot. So for example (for a warlock):

The number of necklaces that drop + the number of bracers + number of shoulders + number of boots + number of cloaks + mh token + oh token + number of gloves + number of belts + number of pants + number of chests + number of rings + number of trinkets = Z

1/Z ^ 3

Z could easily be greater than 14 or 16. I'll have to run the numbers. But, it would be interesting to see.

I count 29 pieces of loot possible to drop for my character (including 213 MH and OH tokens + 220 MH and OH tokens). As conduits don't appear to drop from the Vault, I did not include them in the list.

So, 1/29 ^ 3 = 1/24389 chances I'd get the same item if the assumption is polling from the total pool of all possible loot rather than a specific slot.

I'm not sure which method they're using: Slot rolls or total pool of all possible loot. But, the odds aren't even in the millions in either scenario. It is roughly 10 times more possible if they're using slot rolls vs a pool.

[Addiena]

In a casino, you'd be right.

But Blizzard isn't a casino. You give them money before you can play their game, and then you never need to give them money again if you don't feel like it.

You literally can't lose in WoW. Everything you do is a win. Even items that you don't want are wins. Trying to compare drops to a casino misses the point that you literally didn't pay anything for the drop. It's free. You didn't lose anything by getting a drop you didn't want. You got an item for your work, and your work was playing a game that you already gave money to play, because you wanted to play it.

This analogy is shitty at the core.

*looks at the clock ....looks at how many hours people are pouring into M+runs and other busy work for RNG casino drops ...yup you dont pay them anything, the longer you spend on their floor chasing fake items the more likely it'll be that you'll keep on coming back if you dont win the items you want.

They have all the incentive in the world to keep your sorry asses right there chasing purples and none at all to make a fair and equitable loot system.

I made my choice, I dont gamble at Blizzards casino.

Id rather be earning 40 an hour and buying my way to the top than doing busy work for drops that are as useful as tits on a bull and messing with a RNG system that is designed to not work.

That way I get what I want in a fraction of the time it takes the RNG suckers too, Id rather waste money than my time, money is easy to get, time not so much.

These days with just how horrible in game loot is, I dont even bother buying it, Destiny 2 is more fun for loot drops and I can even target the exact loot item I want in that game, it also costs nothing month to month.

[Zellas]

It would be best for your case if you provide more statements with substance because Fleugen clearly won't. It is better to battle with facts than feelings. All people can do with rebuttal of facts is respond with feelings if they can't support their argument. Or, occasionally, "because I said so."

Allow me to reiterate your own post for a tad bit of clarification.

It would be best for your case if you would spend several extra minutes of your precious life tracking down necessary proof of what transpired at the start of the Legion to actually 'provide more statements with substance' to an unknown 'anonymous' person on the Internets who clearly wasn't even around 8.x back then. It is better to battle with facts than feelings, especially when you're trying to enlighten a person who is clearly enjoying his own delusions of Blizzard the Impeccable. Simply "because he said so."

You're welcome.

[huth]

*looks at the clock ....looks at how many hours people are pouring into M+runs and other busy work for RNG casino drops ...yup you dont pay them anything, the longer you spend on their floor chasing fake items the more likely it'll be that you'll keep on coming back if you dont win.

They have all the incentive in the world to keep your sorry asses right there chasing purples and none at all to make a fair and equitable loot system.

I made my choice, I dont gamble at Blizzards casino.

Will you keep chasing them if you think the loot system is unfair? No? Then they have a reason to make one.

[Addiena]

Will you keep chasing them if you think the loot system is unfair? No? Then they have a reason to make one.

This thread is evidence that yes.. yes they will, they only have to give the system the appearance of being fair and the players will suck that shit right in and keep on sucking on Blizzards teat.

That's how gamblers get into the shit they get into.

As for me . .no I saw how horrible their loot system was years ago, then watched it denigrate into what it is now and walked away.

My time isn't worth the frustration of dealing with a clearly unfair loot system and the people who support it because it appears to be fair.

[Zellas]

That's called playing the game.

You're more than welcome to not enjoy it and even not play it. But the people who do it, generally enjoy it.

I know that's hard for you to believe, but really. It's the truth. And they aren't losing anything but the time they'd spend on another game doing it. Your statement doesn't change that.

Hello. I am a random derp from the Great Beyond That Exists At The Other Side Of Your Monitor. I am one of those you just addressed 'generally'.
I would like to humbly inform you, good Sir, that I stopped enjoying the game of WoW in 5.0. Ever since then I've been struggling and suffering.
I found myself unable to just ditch the game. I tried, thrice. And every time I came back. Not because of fancy addons (every time I resubbed "mid-content"), but because I just cannot force myself to abandon the character I literally put my soul and a lot of personal effort into - back in the days when we actually LOVED the game. I'm not 'enjoying' it anymore, I'm not even 'playing' it. I'm 'enduring'. Against all odds, against the common sense and baseline logic. Simply because I cannot let go.
This doesn't mean that Billzord Inc. is allowed to humiliate me on daily basis by implementing untold amount of horrible "un-fun" concepts in the game.

[Addiena]

Hello. I am a random derp from the Great Beyond That Exists At The Other Side Of Your Monitor. I am one of those you just addressed 'generally'.
I would like to humbly inform you, good Sir, that I stopped enjoying the game of WoW in 5.0. Ever since then I've been struggling and suffering.
I found myself unable to just ditch the game. I tried, thrice. And every time I came back. Not because of fancy addons (every time I resubbed "mid-content"), but because I just cannot force myself to abandon the character I literally put my soul and a lot of personal effort into - back in the days when we actually LOVED the game. I'm not 'enjoying' it anymore, I'm not even 'playing' it. I'm 'enduring'. Against all odds, against the common sense and baseline logic. Simply because I cannot let go.
This doesn't mean that Billzord Inc. is allowed to humiliate me on daily basis by implementing untold amount of horrible "un-fun" concepts in the game.

The sarcasm here is so think you could beat Sargeras to death with it.

But if your being serious . .I put 15 years into this game and enough money for a deposit on a house and I managed to just walk away from it .. partly, I still come to the forums because I do generally like the conversations and its still cool to nerd out about the lore and story.

[huth]

This thread is evidence that yes.. yes they will, they only have to give the system the appearance of being fair and the players will suck that shit right in and keep on sucking on Blizzards teat.

And you are evidence that no, you won't.

Besides, this thread is only evidence that some people think it is unfair, not that it actually is.

[Yakut]

Allow me to reiterate your own post for a tad bit of clarification.

You're welcome.

Sadie, I mean Zellas, that's not really germane to the conversation and I don't need someone to make my posts more Awkard. Thank you though.

The question, as the OP and mod pointed out, is whether or not the system is random. It's a fair question. Statistically, I have been able to prove with math that the outcome the OP listed, it is possible and not so remote as to be impossible. Though, I think it is a fair point that this is a bit of anecdotal evidence. There is no indication this happens frequently. I can't say I've seen it happen on any of my 60s yet (warlock, priest, rogue), but it wouldn't surprise me if it did happen so much as annoy me.

[dacoolist]

When I get a chance I'll grab the vault screenshots I've had this season (just in case someone cares) - I've had 3 rings before but otherwise I've done a lot of 4 M+ runs, and I'ved had a few 2 trinket to pick from and 2 ring as well (but again I didnt unlock all it was just 2 for most of the weeks so)

[Addiena]

And you are evidence that no, you won't.

Besides, this thread is only evidence that some people think it is unfair, not that it actually is.

Its also evidence that no matter how much evidence to contrary you throw at some people they cannot see the forest for all the trees and no amount of discussion will make them believe there is a forest right in front of them.


I now expect you to throw this back at me saying it works both ways, you would be correct so Ill leave this argument right there since like most Flat Earthers I cannot ever convince you that the Earth is not flat.

Only way for you to ever believe me is for you to figure it out yourself .. if you ever do.

[Yakut]

Its also evidence that no matter how much evidence to contrary you throw at some people they cannot see the forest for all the trees and no amount of discussion will make them believe there is a forest right in front of them.

Come on now, you can do better. All you had to do was provide math to show the gambling instead of passive-aggressive closing lines. RNG as it is called in this game/community, is gambling of a sort. It's a flat monthly fee to play that RNG game, but it is gambling to some degree.

Now, with regards to laws, the reason Blizzard doesn't have to call it that is because you don't pay a new fee each time you pull the lever and you don't have to pay for a lootbox for a random chance at an item. So, legally, the distinction for gambling isn't there because it doesn't fit the legal definition. But, in the pure mathematical sense, yes, you are dealing with a game of probabilities.

Procs on items/talents/gear are percentage based chances to occur. Items dropping from a boss are percentage based chances to occur. The vault, as shown a few times in this thread, are also percentage based chances to occur.

That said, I don't really have an objection to that. What I object to most of the time is the relatively low percentage chance. It was much higher in other expansions - and, no, I am not arguing we return to that high of a percentage again. I do argue that something in the middle would be ideal. Or, as TBC and WotLK had implemented, a badge system to buy gear when RNG sucked floppy... parts.

Nonetheless, that discussion strays from the OP's question and is fodder for another thread (or threads).

[Zellas]

Besides, this thread is only evidence that some people think it is unfair, not that it actually is.

This sentiment here just honestly made me guffaw out loud.
'The system is fair. If you don't think it's fair, we don't care. We say it is fair. So mote it be.'
You do realize that those who deemed various game concepts unfair, corrupt and horrible already left the game because they couldn't be arsed to spend any extra effort? Did you even read the original post back in the day Billzord Inc. disabled their 'active sub graph'?
"There are other metrics that are better indicators of the overall Blizzard business performance."
That was the day they were actually been honest with us for the last time. They officially informed us that they no longer care about the customers' approval or happiness. They only care about business performance, and providing such an abhorrent statistics was NOT improving their business performance. So they disabled it instead of trying to fix anything in the game itself.

[Zellas]

And speaking of the Great Vault itself: I can instantly think of a decent solution to the "bad randomness" of its drops that would most likely be greatly approved by literally every other WoW player: modify the GV by adding an option to 'focus on the armor slot' on one of the cache options, so that any player could set it to 'wrists' or 'helmet' or 'trinket' and receive a random - but slot specific! - item from the weekly Vault. And if you still want to force players to spend their life on constant M+ grinding - fine, be it your way, make it so that only the third cache option (9 bosses/10 M+s/6k honor) has this slot focus option.
Jesus F. Christ, how hard can it possibly be to come up with such a concept? I literally thought this out of my arse in six minutes. They have an ENTIRE CORPORATION.

[Argorwal]

Random is random, and that includes streaks. If you never see streaks, that's a good indication that something *isn't* random.

People hate true randomness, which is why developers often implement systems like "bad luck protection", or coding it so that streaks doesn't happen.

If you're getting unlucky and get streaks of useless items, that's a good indicator that the process truly is random.

I read a study where they had people flip a coin 100 times and record the results and others just pick heads and tails 100 times without flipping the coin.

And in virtually all cases it was incredibly obvious which was which because real flips was very streaky and people picking the numbers would alternate a lot because they would feel that is more random.

[Zellas]

Games of probabilities are not always gambling though. No, you are not gambling to play the game. The game sets it's rules, it's rules include RNG drops.

That's about as much of "gambling" as playing the cup shuffle game when someone puts the cups behind their back. Since you can't see how they shuffle the cups around, it's just a percentage chance you pick the right cup - But if you get it wrong, you didn't lose anything.

That's a crucial part of gambling, that you are betting and potentially losing something. You literally are not by playing World of Warcraft. You are paying $15 a month to play the game, that game includes dungeons with RNG drops, but you lose absolutely nothing if you don't get the drop in those dungeons.

You're paying 15$ for a casino entrance ticket. Once you're inside, you start paying with your own lifetime to make those rolls. But that's not a big problem if someone is prepared to perform such payments, that's fine, that's his own personal choice.
The problem is that the cards are rigged and all aces are removed from the deck.
And the likes of you immediately start punching the victim once he calls out the dealer on his bullshit.

[Yakut]

Games of probabilities are not always gambling though. No, you are not gambling to play the game. The game sets it's rules, it's rules include RNG drops.

That's about as much of "gambling" as playing the cup shuffle game when someone puts the cups behind their back. Since you can't see how they shuffle the cups around, it's just a percentage chance you pick the right cup - But if you get it wrong, you didn't lose anything.

That's a crucial part of gambling, that you are betting and potentially losing something. You literally are not by playing World of Warcraft. You are paying $15 a month to play the game, that game includes dungeons with RNG drops, but you lose absolutely nothing if you don't get the drop in those dungeons.

I'm not arguing it fits the legal definition of gambling - because I pointed out that it doesn't. I tend to agree with the sentiment in the sense of how people think of gambling, it doesn't fit that. In the sense of probabilities and mechanics, it can be perceived as such even if there's no loss of money. You lose something even if it isn't money: Time.

That said, I was thinking as I read Addiena's response: Does that mean D&D is gambling? Does it mean D&D is a casino? From a roll of the dice perspective, yes. From a monetary perspective, no.

I try to see the arguments made from multiple perspectives to see if it has truth to it - a philosophy by Aristotle. This does have some truth to it, just not the truth Addiena was hoping to illustrate and then abandon when it couldn't sustain itself for long.

[huth]

This sentiment here just honestly made me guffaw out loud.
'The system is fair. If you don't think it's fair, we don't care. We say it is fair. So mote it be.'

And now find me the person that actually said that. I only said that this thread isn't evidence it is unfair, not that the system isn't.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not arguing it fits the legal definition of gambling - because I pointed out that it doesn't. I tend to agree with the sentiment in the sense of how people think of gambling, it doesn't fit that. In the sense of probabilities and mechanics, it can be perceived as such even if there's no loss of money. You lose something even if it isn't money: Time.

That said, I was thinking as I read Addiena's response: Does that mean D&D is gambling? Does it mean D&D is a casino? From a roll of the dice perspective, yes. From a monetary perspective, no.

I try to see the arguments made from multiple perspectives to see if it has truth to it - a philosophy by Aristotle. This does have some truth to it, just not the truth Addiena was hoping to illustrate and then abandon when it couldn't sustain itself for long.

No, they are games of chance. Games of chance aren't inherently gambling. By calling it gambling, you introduce connotations that aren't fitting the situation.

[Zellas]

And now find me the person that actually said that. I only said that this thread isn't evidence it is unfair, not that the system isn't.

It is quite awe-inspiring just how adept you are at pointing out that "there is no evidence, I never said that, I merely implied".
I rest my case.