Thread: [TV] Loki

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  1. #801
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Ya that’s how it tends to be but I’m wondering if the new timelines every get to be there own verse like how the 616 and ultimate and two different verses. Like could cable take a wrong turn some where and be in the ultimate universe or would he always be in a variation of 616.

    The only real solid cross over I can think of is the old man Logan verse coming into 616 though time travel but that was after it was more or less fused after battle world so I have no clue if that would count.

    All other cases I can think of are multiverse stuff but time travel related.
    Canonically, here, time travel that was "variant" (changing things that the TVA didn't approve of) got snipped, so any such time travel didn't happen. Time travel that did achieve what the TVA wanted was allowed, and the only timeline that existed was that timeline (or at least, timelines so similar they're interchangeably identical). They don't really establish that time travel can't change the past, just that if it did and the TVA didn't like it, it was pruned and reset.

    To put it another way; Doctor Strange saw millions of possible futures, with the Time Stone. However, because of the TVA, only one of those futures would ever be allowed to happen. Strange was essentially seeing millions of possible variants, with no way to distinguish the Sacred Timeline from those variants.

    So Cable could jump back, if the TVA think he should because of how he impacts the timeline. And he can't jump back to a "wrong" universe, because there's only the one, the Sacred Timeline.

    But that's how things were before this. Now? Now all bets are off. The "rules" weren't natural laws, just one man's hubris.

    In general, in the comics, time travel sticks to the same universe/timeline. But there's times when things get fucky, and there's also multiversal travel, which is a whole different thing.


  2. #802
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    THere's a ready made example of that with Vance Astrovik.
    Ah so I guess that would answer the question then as the older is from Earth-691.

    Though that raising so many more questions especially if the Mcu is suppose to be one of the numbered universes.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  3. #803
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I want to kind of underline that there is no way on God's green Earth that Marvel Films is going to canonize the Fox X-men franchise. They faded off SUPER hard and even the "good ones" don't hold up compared to the MCU. And the bad ones, c'mon.
    It will probably be the most likely scenario, at least for the Fox X-men universe. Given that Deadpool 3 might be set in the MCU while also continuing from the previous 2 installments (which are part of the Fox X-men series). But then again it is Deadpool we are talking about. I'm sure there will be some 4th wall joke explaining it all.

  4. #804
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    But there's times when things get fucky,
    This seems to be the crux of it.

    Assuming the MCU is still canon with being a numbered verse within the comics it would pretty much mean MCU kang was either the first/last kang to win in the whole of the multiverse erasing every other verse and making the MCU the only one with the sacred timeline.

    So baring it just being fucky the last episode of Loki would be the beginning of all the comic canon with every other verse being a branch as things fall back into time chaos without the last/first kang keeping it clean.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  5. #805
    Interesting question: Does Strange see 14 million possibilities that the TVA would have never allowed? And thus it's irrelevant, because they were always going to succeed (from the perspective of the audience and the TVA) because that what the TVA wanted, and would have pruned any failures to stop Thanos?

    Or does he see 14m possibilities which the TVA would have allowed, but only one where they defeat Thanos. Cause this last episode seems to imply that the Lokis could have been re-inserted and change some obvious world-altering Nexus Events, like the Battle of NY, and Loki gaining the Infinity Gauntlet. Or is the implication here that he would have been ultimately been killed by the Avengers in Thanos's place?

    Kind of an interesting thought experiment into whether the Sorceror Supreme/Time Stone can see into futures which would never exist because of the TVA, even though the Time Stone has no power over the TVA.

  6. #806
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Interesting question: Does Strange see 14 million possibilities that the TVA would have never allowed? And thus it's irrelevant, because they were always going to succeed (from the perspective of the audience and the TVA) because that what the TVA wanted, and would have pruned any failures to stop Thanos?

    Or does he see 14m possibilities which the TVA would have allowed, but only one where they defeat Thanos. Cause this last episode seems to imply that the Lokis could have been re-inserted and change some obvious world-altering Nexus Events, like the Battle of NY, and Loki gaining the Infinity Gauntlet. Or is the implication here that he would have been ultimately been killed by the Avengers in Thanos's place?

    Kind of an interesting thought experiment into whether the Sorceror Supreme/Time Stone can see into futures which would never exist because of the TVA, even though the Time Stone has no power over the TVA.
    Good point. That's probably something that was just ignored by the writers to be honest.
    I dislike that one 6-episode meh serie basically narrowed down every single achievement of all the MCU so far to nothing, as it was just written as it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nero Duskwind View Post
    He Who Remains fears his variants, most notably Kang the Conqueror, whose statue you see in the rebooted TVA that Loki reappears to. Basically, in the instant Sylvie killed He Who Remains, Kang is unleashed and has imposed his will on the TVA and the timeline, aeons of cosmic war engaged and ended in the blink of an eye.
    I don't know, Loki was sent back to this TVA before Sylvie killed He Who Remains.
    If all that mess is explained by "the TVA was instantly reformed in the blink of an eye", then Loki should have been included in this reset, no ? Or he's super special or whatever

  7. #807
    Old God Al Gorefiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    That doesn't even make sense as a hypothetical.

    First, the TVA is run by an Earthling to ensure his many Earth-born variants don't ever exist. His focus is, explicitly, Earth.
    Second, the TVA is frackin' huge, and we only see one tiny fraction where everyone's office is apparently within walking distance of each other. Basically the same building. It's entirely possible that the TVA is just regionally coded, so that Kree variants are policing Kree worlds, where they can fit in more easily and cause less divergence merely for existing. For example. Repeat for every other alien type.
    Third, we know a lot of humans live off Earth. And that a lot of "alien" species look exactly like humans (see Asgardians and some Kree).

    It wouldn't have served the story. The story was not about the TVA. They weren't even the villains; they were a tool created by the villain. One which was repeatedly shown to be flawed.
    Was the reveal that the TVA was Earth-centric an actual plot point? Kang mentioned multiples of him but never mentioned himself being an Earth variant iirc. His origin story from the comics need not apply here as they aren't following his OG character

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Ya that’s how it tends to be but I’m wondering if the new timelines ever get to be there own verse like how the 616 and ultimate and two different verses. Like could cable take a wrong turn some where and be in the ultimate universe or would he always be in a variation of 616.

    The only real solid cross over I can think of is the old man Logan verse coming into 616 though time travel but that was after it was more or less fused after battle world so I have no clue if that would count.

    All other cases I can think of are multiverse stuff but time travel related.
    Well we had Nebula kill Nebula in the movies

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Interesting question: Does Strange see 14 million possibilities that the TVA would have never allowed? And thus it's irrelevant, because they were always going to succeed (from the perspective of the audience and the TVA) because that what the TVA wanted, and would have pruned any failures to stop Thanos?

    Or does he see 14m possibilities which the TVA would have allowed, but only one where they defeat Thanos. Cause this last episode seems to imply that the Lokis could have been re-inserted and change some obvious world-altering Nexus Events, like the Battle of NY, and Loki gaining the Infinity Gauntlet. Or is the implication here that he would have been ultimately been killed by the Avengers in Thanos's place?

    Kind of an interesting thought experiment into whether the Sorceror Supreme/Time Stone can see into futures which would never exist because of the TVA, even though the Time Stone has no power over the TVA.
    I think Doctor Strange being the Sorcerer Supreme, anything he does would have properly been foreseen and allowed by the Time Keepers as "supposed to happen".

  8. #808
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    Was the reveal that the TVA was Earth-centric an actual plot point? Kang mentioned multiples of him but never mentioned himself being an Earth variant iirc. His origin story from the comics need not apply here as they aren't following his OG character
    He definitely uses "Earth" as his model world in the little origin story thing that pops up from his watch/gauntlet thing. I believe he also uses the name, but I'd have to rewatch it. The TVA is clearly not exclusively Earth-centric however - even the chunks of the TVA that Loki takes place in: we spent time off-world this season, Loki and Sylvie are not human, a Skrull pops up in the first episode, etc.

  9. #809
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    things get fucky,
    OT: Someone I knew came up with great term for that....confuckulated.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  10. #810
    Quote Originally Posted by Nadiru View Post
    He definitely uses "Earth" as his model world in the little origin story thing that pops up from his watch/gauntlet thing. I believe he also uses the name, but I'd have to rewatch it. The TVA is clearly not exclusively Earth-centric however - even the chunks of the TVA that Loki takes place in: we spent time off-world this season, Loki and Sylvie are not human, a Skrull pops up in the first episode, etc.
    He specifically says he's from Earth in the 31st century.

  11. #811
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerraw View Post
    He specifically says he's from Earth in the 31st century.
    I figured he did, but I wasn't in a place where I could just rewatch & check.

  12. #812
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    Good point. That's probably something that was just ignored by the writers to be honest.
    I dislike that one 6-episode meh serie basically narrowed down every single achievement of all the MCU so far to nothing, as it was just written as it is.



    I don't know, Loki was sent back to this TVA before Sylvie killed He Who Remains.
    If all that mess is explained by "the TVA was instantly reformed in the blink of an eye", then Loki should have been included in this reset, no ? Or he's super special or whatever
    Some timelines already branched and "crossed the threshold" before that, while Kang was still explaining stuff (he points it out himself), probably because the TVA got a little more dysfunctional with every Hunter Mobius and B15 got to their side and less and less pruning going on.
    Sylvie probably didn't realize that she would send Loki somewhere else than before, because before there was only one place he could have gone. And she also wasn't exactly thinking straight at the moment.

  13. #813
    Brewmaster Malania's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudi...tm_medium=mweb

    Really well done Gif showing why this is currently my least favorite marvel Disney+ series.
    If you want a coherent plot with an actual threat to him, his powers have to be toned down. I was more surprised they muted his personality to match the later movies instead of him being basically the Loki from the first Avengers movie. Stupid.

  14. #814
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Interesting question: Does Strange see 14 million possibilities that the TVA would have never allowed? And thus it's irrelevant, because they were always going to succeed (from the perspective of the audience and the TVA) because that what the TVA wanted, and would have pruned any failures to stop Thanos?

    Or does he see 14m possibilities which the TVA would have allowed, but only one where they defeat Thanos. Cause this last episode seems to imply that the Lokis could have been re-inserted and change some obvious world-altering Nexus Events, like the Battle of NY, and Loki gaining the Infinity Gauntlet. Or is the implication here that he would have been ultimately been killed by the Avengers in Thanos's place?

    Kind of an interesting thought experiment into whether the Sorceror Supreme/Time Stone can see into futures which would never exist because of the TVA, even though the Time Stone has no power over the TVA.
    This is basically why I've been trying to emphasize that the Sacred Timeline and the work of the TVA are an aberration and violation of the natural order, not the natural state of how time and the multiverse function. It's as natural as a skyscraper existing in New York City.

    And there's not one but two layers, here, so bear with me.

    1> The natural state of the multiverse seems to be that any decision has potential to branch the multiverse, though more-impactful changes deviate further (hence the TVA's talk of getting closer to the red line and such, and how some decisions seem to branch "harder").

    2> What Strange was doing was walking down each of those potential outcomes, based on decisions he could make, seeking which choices led to the outcome he desired. Here's the tricky thing; because he carries that information back with him, and then makes his decisions based on that information, he's essentially creating a new branch, where he purposefully takes everyone down a path that, in the futures he examined, was tread through random chance. It's like going to buy a randomized lottery ticket, and looking at the futures to see which number pays out, and then deciding not to take a random ticket; you'll buy a ticket with the numbers you now know win the jackpot. The timelines you saw were all a random ticket, the reality you experience is a ticket you deliberately picked to win.

    3> The TVA clearly wants Thanos to lose and the Snap to be reversed with the Blip, since they approved of the Avengers' time travel, so clearly that had to happen for Kang to exist as he does for some reason. That would mean they'd snip any timelines that didn't contain that outcome, but I'd argue that Strange's foresight also prevented those futures from existing; why behave randomly when you know the winning moves? They only existed as potentialities, but never actually came to be, because Strange's choices made them impossible (even if he was following one closely enough that it'd be hard to tell the difference).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malania View Post
    If you want a coherent plot with an actual threat to him, his powers have to be toned down. I was more surprised they muted his personality to match the later movies instead of him being basically the Loki from the first Avengers movie. Stupid.
    He's literally the same Loki. He's drunk on the power of the Space Stone in The Avengers. Go watch Thor: The Dark World again. That's shortly after his arrest after the Avengers, so he's barely had time to change at all. And he's pretty much the same there as he is at the start of the show here.


  15. #815
    Are they using the terms timeline and multiple universes interchangeably? That's what I don't understand. Like let's say that Loki is from Universe A1, where the battle of New York happened. Is Sylvie from Universe " B1"? When he took the stone and ported out, did that create "A2"? What if he took a tempad and when back and say stabbed Ironman while he was sleeping, would that make A3? If Sylvie went to her universe and did something to change it, is that B2, 3 4, etc..."

    I guess I don't see how the one Kang stops all the others from happening in all other timelines and universes by protecting a single timeline.

  16. #816
    Quote Originally Posted by teverin View Post
    Are they using the terms timeline and multiple universes interchangeably? That's what I don't understand. Like let's say that Loki is from Universe A1, where the battle of New York happened. Is Sylvie from Universe " B1"? When he took the stone and ported out, did that create "A2"? What if he took a tempad and when back and say stabbed Ironman while he was sleeping, would that make A3? If Sylvie went to her universe and did something to change it, is that B2, 3 4, etc..."

    I guess I don't see how the one Kang stops all the others from happening in all other timelines and universes by protecting a single timeline.
    Alternate universes are created by alternate timelines. It's not really that confusing.

  17. #817
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teverin View Post
    Are they using the terms timeline and multiple universes interchangeably? That's what I don't understand. Like let's say that Loki is from Universe A1, where the battle of New York happened. Is Sylvie from Universe " B1"? When he took the stone and ported out, did that create "A2"? What if he took a tempad and when back and say stabbed Ironman while he was sleeping, would that make A3? If Sylvie went to her universe and did something to change it, is that B2, 3 4, etc..."

    I guess I don't see how the one Kang stops all the others from happening in all other timelines and universes by protecting a single timeline.
    They are interchangeable. Each universe has its own timeline. If you like, think of the timeline like a freshly-cooked steaming-hot pizza with extra cheese. If you try and pull a piece out, the strings of cheese still connect the slice to the pizza, until it gets far enough and those strings break, and then you've got a distinct and separate pizza and slice. But before you get that far, the TVA can show up and put that piece back, and the pizza will basically be exactly as it was before you tried to take a slice. It's a crude analogy, but imagine infinite slices, and infinite people trying to take a slice, and that each slice turns into its own pizza, and now we're getting there.

    The kind of branching into confusion you're talking about is what we were literally shown ocurring without the TVA's pruning, both in the first episode explaining what the TVA does, and in the final episode when Sylvie kills Kang and the whole thing splits apart.

    Kang was preventing the Kangs from universes B-Z and any number designations higher than 1 by creating the TVA to actively prune any variance that posed any risk of creating a universe/timeline other than the A1 that led to him being born and growing up as he did, to become the man that he is, rather than any of the other possible Kangs. There aren't any other universes or timelines until Sylvie kills him; the TVA was preventing them from existing.
    Last edited by Endus; 2021-07-16 at 04:41 PM.


  18. #818
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    There aren't any other universes or timelines until Sylvie kills him; the TVA was preventing them from existing.
    That clears a lot up right there for me. I just thought there were others out there he was just keeping them from coming into that "A" reality while preventing that one from splitting.

    But if good Kang created the TVA, why is it that when she kills him, the TVA ha him as a ruler? Loki wasn't pushed back in time, because they were all freaking out over the branching which was a result of his death. Technically doesn't Kang not exist yet so they still would be in a place where he still made it, its just their boss is dead? Or is the TVA existing at "all times"?

    I think I need to rewatch the earlier episodes.

  19. #819
    Warchief Nero Duskwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    Good point. That's probably something that was just ignored by the writers to be honest.
    I dislike that one 6-episode meh serie basically narrowed down every single achievement of all the MCU so far to nothing, as it was just written as it is.



    I don't know, Loki was sent back to this TVA before Sylvie killed He Who Remains.
    If all that mess is explained by "the TVA was instantly reformed in the blink of an eye", then Loki should have been included in this reset, no ? Or he's super special or whatever
    You're right. I totally overlooked that detail. it looks like she kicked him into Kang's TVA not realizing that the sacred timeline had already destabilized to the point that the alternate timelines took
    root.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    There aren't any other universes or timelines until Sylvie kills him; the TVA was preventing them from existing.
    I feel like that's only partially true. My understanding was that the "Sacred Timeline" isn't the prime Marvel Universe itself, but a a scripted outline that He Who Remains designed to impose and maintain order and uniformity across all the different realities. The variant universes still exist but they were all forced to follow the same predetermined chain of events on a macro scale, with micro-events monitored to ensure slight deviations didn't create domino effects that required pruning. If the alternate universes didn't exist altogether, there wouldn't be a need to monitor and prune accordingly.
    Last edited by Nero Duskwind; 2021-07-16 at 06:02 PM.
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  20. #820
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teverin View Post
    That clears a lot up right there for me. I just thought there were others out there he was just keeping them from coming into that "A" reality while preventing that one from splitting.

    But if good Kang created the TVA, why is it that when she kills him, the TVA ha him as a ruler? Loki wasn't pushed back in time, because they were all freaking out over the branching which was a result of his death. Technically doesn't Kang not exist yet so they still would be in a place where he still made it, its just their boss is dead? Or is the TVA existing at "all times"?

    I think I need to rewatch the earlier episodes.
    You're thinking only in terms of linear time. Kang's fortress past the End of Time is outside time itself. And when (this) Kang ceased to be, because Sylvie killed him, that echoed back instantly through all of time, and the timeline broke apart as it is naturally predisposed to do, bringing forth all those various timelines again.

    Here's the fun bit; the timeline is all of time. That means that, the moment Sylvie killing this Kang, he'd never existed and his TVA had never pruned anything, ever. As Kang said; now that there are billions of varying timelines, this also means billions of Kangs, and Kang is both exceptional enough and inherently driven enough that he tends to seek control and to break through multiversal barriers, in at least enough of his various iterations that it becomes a serious problem of Kangs invading and conquering new timelines.

    It isn't that "Kang doesn't exist yet". It's that "the Kang that was preventing billions of worse Kangs from existing is dead, and now you immediately have those billions of Kangs fighting and conquering each other and more. They will "eventually" come to exist, in some 31st century of most timelines, but then they'll mostly invent time travel and multiversal travel and start jumping around everywhere.

    Once you stir time travel into the mix, anything happening "eventually" happened billions of years ago, too. That's why the rock-solid proof that time travel is almost certainly impossible in the real world is the lack of time travelers. Even if they were mostly super good at blending in, at some point in some distant future, some moron's gonna jump back and be an idiot and the jig would be up. That doesn't happen, so it's pretty clear time travel can't work.


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