Thread: [TV] Loki

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  1. #981
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    I mean, from your own source…



    He Who Remains isn’t Kang the Conqueror, but we know he’s the villain of Quantumania.
    That's what I get for not reading to the end of the article.

    I wonder if they'll stick by the canon idea of there only being one Nexus Being per universe. In that situation, Wanda would be the Nexus Being of this universe - and Kang would be trying to kill her to rule the timeline.

  2. #982
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    That's what I get for not reading to the end of the article.

    I wonder if they'll stick by the canon idea of there only being one Nexus Being per universe. In that situation, Wanda would be the Nexus Being of this universe - and Kang would be trying to kill her to rule the timeline.
    It’s entirely possible he’s from another universe entirely which would let nexus beings collide. Fun stuff. I wonder if we’ll see him, or hints of him, in Multiverse of Madness.

  3. #983
    Season 2 has started filming today. Sounds like it’ll release next summer.

  4. #984
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrollHunter3000 View Post
    I feel like a good example of this would be someone making the argument "the writer's never show any of the characters taking a shit wtf I'm supposed to just believe none of these people ever take shits or something???" Some people are just weird and think they need to cover every minute detail otherwise it's bad writing.
    Why can't we discuss the good writing and acting for a change? I can't speak for everyone else, but I straight up almost had a panic attack when the sacred timeline started to branch off into the multiverse despite rooting for it to happen for the entire season.
    Populists (and "national socialists") look at the supposedly secret deals that run the world "behind the scenes". Child's play. Except that childishness is sinister in adults.
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  5. #985
    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    Why can't we discuss the good writing and acting for a change? I can't speak for everyone else, but I straight up almost had a panic attack when the sacred timeline started to branch off into the multiverse despite rooting for it to happen for the entire season.
    But if we did this, we wouldn't be able to have a pedantic argument about power levels for 20 pages!

  6. #986
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    1) If she's always a Nexus Being from birth, and ordained by the timeline to exist, Kang could never control her, and thus he could never know anything for certain.
    What I really don't understand here is that whole Scarlet Witch stuff. What I understood from what was said here over the last few pages is that Scarlet being a Nexus/Chaos character, you can't really control her, so from her "apparition" (Wandavision finale) onward, you can't know where the "Sacred Timeline" is heading toward.

    But... We've seen events post-Wandavision already. Lamentis-1 happened in 2077, and lots of variants created by Sylvie's timebomb in episode 2 were post-Wandavision (e.g. Vormir in 2301), which means that we've already passed the "Scarlet Witch creation". Hell, Loki is an Asgardian with thousand years lifespan, so "Old Loki" probably lived alone for millenia beyond Infinity War events.
    TVA was pruning stuff up to the Sacred Timeline's End of Times, so that should mean He Who Remains had already planned what happened up to there.

    Does that mean that what we saw in Wandavision's finale was in fact something that was supposed to be pruned at one point by the TVA ? But then, why wasn't it done ? Is that because of the mess Mobius was creating in TVA by showing the TVA agents the truth about their identify, preventing them to prune anything efficiently anymore ?
    Last edited by Ophenia; 2021-07-27 at 06:31 AM.

  7. #987
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    What I really don't understand here is that whole Scarlet Witch stuff. What I understood from what was said here over the last few pages is that Scarlet being a Nexus/Chaos character, you can't really control her, so from her "apparition" (Wandavision finale) onward, you can't know where the "Sacred Timeline" is heading toward.
    It's Timey Wimey stuff.

    First off, you have to consider what the "sacred timeline" actually is. It's literally just Kang Prime's timeline. He isolated his timeline in the multiverse, then pruned ALL OTHER TIMELINES out of existence until only his remained. Then he set up the TVA to prevent new timelines from forming.

    The important distinction here is that the TVA does not exist to protect the sacred timeline from change because it CANT change. Whatever happens in that timeline was always going to happen in that timeline, and nothing will actually change it. The TVA exists to prevent new timelines from forming, thereby re-starting the multiverse.

    Remember, He Who Remains exists OUTSIDE of time. His castle is not part of the timeline. As such, so long as there is only ONE timeline, he is able to predict everything that can and will happen because he has seen it all. Every one of those branches created by Sylvie's Time Bomb were pruned. They effectively never existed. Due to the nature of the TVA (which also exists outside of Time), you get things like Old Loki, where a Loki Variant exists who lived for thousands of years, but simultaneously his timeline was basically pruned seconds after it came into existence, effectively removing the entire length of it from reality in one action starting at the divergence point. His timeline both exists for thousands of years (basically the length of time between his divergence event and his pruning) and only exists for a fraction of a second, since the TVA prunes the entire branch out of existence when they find him. Timey-wimey wierdness because you are dealing with beings that exist outside of Time.

    Going back to the "Sacred Timeline", every event that happens there will happen exactly the way it should, because that's how it has always happened (it's confusing, but that's temporal mechanics). It's impossible to actually CHANGE the timeline, because anything that would change it, would instead cause a branch, creating a new, divergent timeline, resulting in a multiverse of divergent timelines rather than a change to the original.

    Wanda's awakening to her true power was likely something Kang Prime KNEW was going to happen (or maybe had to happen, or for that matter, could have already happened since he exists outside of time). In all likelyhood, he simply arranged for Loki + Sylvie to arrive infront of him at the correct moment entirely for expository purposes.

    Her existence as a Nexus Being basically acts like a lock on the timeline. As soon as she exists, it becomes impossible to prune timelines to prevent the multiverse from occurring. This technically makes the "choice" he offered Loki and Sylvie even more hollow, because no matter what option they chose, Wanda's mere existence as the Scarlet Witch meant the multiverse was going to happen either way, and there was nothing either of them could have done about it.
    Last edited by Surfd; 2021-07-27 at 08:09 AM.

  8. #988
    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    Her existence as a Nexus Being basically acts like a lock on the timeline. As soon as she exists, it becomes impossible to prune timelines to prevent the multiverse from occurring. This technically makes the "choice" he offered Loki and Sylvie even more hollow, because no matter what option they chose, Wanda's mere existence as the Scarlet Witch meant the multiverse was going to happen either way, and there was nothing either of them could have done about it.
    The bolded part is where I have a problem. That's what I understood initially, but they've pruned stuff happening post-Scarlet Witch (Vormir 2301, Lamentis-1 2077).

    And if HWR knows where the Sacred Timeline is heading (as he lived through it), he can't "not know" what'll be happening next.

    Additionally, as HWR's castle and TVA are "outside of time", then all that happens in the sacred timeline or the multiverse should happen simultaneously. So there isn't any correct moment that he could have planned, because Scarlet Witch Nexus event technically couldn't be synchronized with what happened in an area which is outside of time. This imo was just done for cinematography purpose but doesn't make any sense "lore-wise".

  9. #989
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    The bolded part is where I have a problem. That's what I understood initially, but they've pruned stuff happening post-Scarlet Witch (Vormir 2301, Lamentis-1 2077).

    And if HWR knows where the Sacred Timeline is heading (as he lived through it), he can't "not know" what'll be happening next.

    Additionally, as HWR's castle and TVA are "outside of time", then all that happens in the sacred timeline or the multiverse should happen simultaneously. So there isn't any correct moment that he could have planned, because Scarlet Witch Nexus event technically couldn't be synchronized with what happened in an area which is outside of time. This imo was just done for cinematography purpose but doesn't make any sense "lore-wise".
    Here's the core problem with "outside time".

    There's still time. We see events in the TVA and at the End of Time occur in linear fashion as time progresses, in both situations. The difference is that they aren't connected to the timeline proper, for the direction of their own "time" as a vector. If the Sacred Timeline is a highway, the TVA and the End of Time are other roads passing over or under the highway. Vehicles may not be "moving" there in relation to the direction of travel on the Sacred Highway, but they're moving in their own frame of reference.

    The only time we've been presented with a dimension without time at all was in Doctor Strange, in Dormammu's Realm. Which is why Dormammu found sequential events and repetition confusing and disturbing, when Strange brought that with him. Doesn't apply to the TVA or the End of Time.

    Now, let's go back to the highway example. There isn't just one car traveling that highway. There's billions. At various points along that highway. Being able to see the whole of the highway means you can tell where there's a traffic accident, but just because there's a traffic accident one day does not mean there's always a traffic accident. That's the TVA responding to variants, basically.

    And one day, someone detonates a truck bomb and annihilates a major interchange on the highway. That's Wanda. It didn't happen yesterday, but now that it's happened today, that traffic's not gonna flow down that highway any more, not today, not tomorrow, not unless it's rebuilt somehow.

    You have one "time" in the sense of the direction of travel in the Sacred Timeline, and a completely separate sense of "time" from an outside observer, in this case real time as the highway continues carrying traffic day after day.

    You're operating from the idea that there's only [i]one[i] frame of reference for "time" and that the Sacred Timeline is immutable and never-changing, both of which are categorically untrue in the canon.

    He Who Remains just knew what day and time from his point of reference that the "bomb" was gonna go off. Which isn't the same referential time frame as the Sacred Timeline.


  10. #990
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    The bolded part is where I have a problem. That's what I understood initially, but they've pruned stuff happening post-Scarlet Witch (Vormir 2301, Lamentis-1 2077)
    Not sure I quite understand, because nothing that happened on Lamentis would have been Pruned. Lamentis was a high class Apocalypse event. They wouldn't have to prune anything since nothing that happened there would survive apocalypse.

    As for Vormir, who knows. Just because the event happned "post" Scarlet Witch in relative time on the Sacred Timeline, doesn't mean it couldn't be pruned. Several scenarios exist in which that could be possible, including the most obvious one: The existence of the Scarlet Witch only prevents manipulation of the timeline while she exists on the timeline. It's probably pretty safe to say that Wanda isn't immortal. Which means that she will exist on the timeline for a fixed amount of time. Once she is gone (either dies of natural causes, or gets killed off by something, possibly even a future Kang variant) the timeline becomes open to manipulation again.

    Remember: He Who Remains exists outside the timeline. He has seen the WHOLE of Time, from beginning to end. Even so, He actually has an origin ON the timeline. He was born in the distant future. Like, literally probably comes from a point on the timeline when Wanda has been long dead. When he ended the multiverse wars, he didn't create a NEW timeline. He just isolated the entirety of his personal one and eradicated all the others.

    To take a bit of what Endus was saying, and add a bit of "Timey-Wimey" crazyness, the "Wanda exists" phase of the timeline is always going to happen. Because it's part of the timeline. It HAS happened. Or Will happen. All depending on your frame of reference on the "Sacred Timeline". But since HWR lives outside the timeline, the "Wanda Exists" phase is ALWAYS happening and NEVER happening and Just About To Happen and Just Happened all at the same time, because he effectively has complete and total control over the reference points he uses to view the "Sacred Timeline" as an outside observer. For him, the multiverse war ended a few hours ago, but it has also been over for multiple millennia.

    This is why I personally think that HWR was basically messing with Sylvie and Loki in the end scene there. He was just as "trapped in himself" as they were in themselves, in a prison of his own making, and it had driven him nuts. He "ended" the multiverse wars by isolating his timeline, but in a sort of "Temproal schrodinger's cat" paradox, there will always be a part of the timeline where he CAN'T end them, because Wanda's existence makes that impossible. So as long as he stays outside of time, the multiverse both Does and Does Not exist simultaneously. And so long as he never peeks at the part of the timeline where it "does", then it "doesn't", and everything is fine. So either he spends and eternity trying not to think of the cat to make sure the cat is always dead, or he plays mind games with unsuspecting variants by giving them what seems to be a massively important choice (which is actually completely meaningless) because he knows that the "Wanda Exists" part of the timeline is always going to be there, and he knows how it "ends" anyway, because the ending is actually him, several millennia in the future arriving at exactly where he is now.

    Basically, the entirety of the "Sacred timeline" is actually a self contained loop. Wanda existing IS the start of the multiverse war. It HAS to happen, because without it, the war never occurs. Kang from the future never discovers the existence of different timelines, the war never starts, and He Who Remains never becomes the one who "Ends" it. But he always ends it in the same way. Isolating his timeline, creating the TVA, stepping outside of time where he slowly goes nuts and eventually "re-starts" it by finally poking at the Temporal-Cat-Box while playing the biggest joke of all time on Loki.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You're operating from the idea that there's only [i]one[i] frame of reference for "time" and that the Sacred Timeline is immutable and never-changing, both of which are categorically untrue in the canon.
    Actually, I would strongly argue against this. The "Sacred Timeline" IS unchanging and immutable. Everything that happens on it from beginning to end is quite literally fixed. It will happen. It MUST happen. Because that is the NATURE of a timeline. Any "change" to a timeline creates a NEW timeline, it doesn't actually "change" the original. The only way to change the "Sacred Timeline" would be to allow a branch to occur, and then PRUNE THE ORIGINAL. Because again, that's how timelines work in the system as presented here, and what makes the "Sacred Timeline" the "Sacred Timeline". It's Kang Prime's origin timeline, and he allows no branches to survive.

    Which is actually kind of important, when you consider that from the moment Loki is captured in epsisode 1 right up to the end of the series, he is never seen to actually directly interact with the "Sacred Timeline" in any way that would have resulted in a change to that timeline. The ENTIRE series takes place either in the TVA (outside of time) or during "Apocalypse" events on the timeline, where nothing he does matters.
    Last edited by Surfd; 2021-07-28 at 10:24 AM.

  11. #991
    So, with Ant-Man and Loki filming at the same time do we think Kang will just be a peripheral character in season 2? Or will he pull double duty and appear in both?

  12. #992

  13. #993
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    So, with Ant-Man and Loki filming at the same time do we think Kang will just be a peripheral character in season 2? Or will he pull double duty and appear in both?
    Maybe it will be two different Kangs

  14. #994
    The Pitch Meeting is funny, as always, but he said something I've also heard elsewhere and that always makes me wonder... do people really think, on a mission that relies on stealth and speed, that Tony Stark-B could still have nicked the Tesseract after the Hulk threw him halfway across the room, the suitcase fell to the ground and the Tesseract itself landed behind Loki's guards (at Loki's feet)? Even if Loki had not picked up the Tesseract, the only thing that Tony-B could have done was get out of there while he still could and people were distracted. No way he could have gotten away, had he tried to pick himself up, pick up the suitcase, shoulder his way past Loki's guards, pick up the Tesseract and then still get out the building unnoticed. Taking the Tesseract failed when the Hulk smashed the door into Tony, not when Loki took the Tesseract.

  15. #995
    Quote Originally Posted by formerShandalay View Post
    The Pitch Meeting is funny, as always, but he said something I've also heard elsewhere and that always makes me wonder... do people really think, on a mission that relies on stealth and speed, that Tony Stark-B could still have nicked the Tesseract after the Hulk threw him halfway across the room, the suitcase fell to the ground and the Tesseract itself landed behind Loki's guards (at Loki's feet)? Even if Loki had not picked up the Tesseract, the only thing that Tony-B could have done was get out of there while he still could and people were distracted. No way he could have gotten away, had he tried to pick himself up, pick up the suitcase, shoulder his way past Loki's guards, pick up the Tesseract and then still get out the building unnoticed. Taking the Tesseract failed when the Hulk smashed the door into Tony, not when Loki took the Tesseract.
    Ant-Man could have found a way to get it

  16. #996
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    Ant-Man could have found a way to get it
    The whole mission relied on being quick and unseen. Had Antman had a way of getting it out, they could have done that in the first place. And even if they can get a hold of the Tesseract, if the timing is off even by a few seconds, Thor would have been on their heels.
    So as soon as Tony gets hit and looses the suitcase, the only way to not get caught is to abort the mission and regroup, Loki or no Loki.

  17. #997
    I mean, I think I said it in this thread, but I pondered that the NYC timeline after Loki escaped had to have been pruned, once Banner got the Time stone and the mind stone was secured.

  18. #998
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    I mean, I think I said it in this thread, but I pondered that the NYC timeline after Loki escaped had to have been pruned, once Banner got the Time stone and the mind stone was secured.
    Well, if we take the superposition of Loki's and say that one state was 'Loki doesn't pick up the Tesseract' and the other is 'Loki picks up the Tesseract' then what happens after the picking up has to be pruned, because it's not supposed to happen (according to the TVA).
    The thing is, if what the Avengers did is 'supposed to happen' it has to be part of the Sacred Timeline, so their botched heist is part of that and must not be pruned. The heist stays, because it's supposed to happen. Even not getting the Tesseract right then and there has to happen, because otherwise the rest of the heist would not be 'supposed to happen'. But Loki still gets pruned when he takes the Tesseract. And that is what people critizise: if the heist is supposed to go wrong at that specific point, why does Loki get pruned? And my answer is: because it wasn't Loki that made it go wrong, but the Hulk. Because in my opinion had Loki not picked up the Tesseract, Tony (from the future) would still have to abort the mission after the Tesseract fell out of the suitcase and his few second window of 'stealthily getting away with the Tesseract' had passed.

  19. #999
    Quote Originally Posted by tyrlaan View Post
    Maybe it will be two different Kangs
    I mean, the statue is pretty clearly Nathaniel Richards. I guess they could be chasing a different Kang around, but that’s not what I mean. I mean the one in charge of the TVA. He should be able to fit a couple days worth of shooting into the schedule while they’re shooting the hero side of the story.

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