Thread: [TV] Loki

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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    What you're complaining about here isn't writing, it's the TVA's ethical justifications for their actions.

    And, to repeat, I'm pretty sure pointing out that those are garbage bullshit is the entire point of the show.
    If garbage bullshit is what the shows going for then as a viewer it was achieved and made sure I'm far less interested to support the show. Pretty sure thats not the goal but what it is, is poor writing.

    That end result is poorly written work be it for TVA justification or some goofballs drunk easy cop out reasoning of how it doesn't matter what happened in other MCU areas, we just going to write it so it doesn't matter no matter which way a viewer can spin it. Again, hey Cap. Make sure you go back in time and shack up with Peggy. Otherwise we kill the ones that don't take that choice. It's a joke and poorly done.

    Far to many interpretations in who knows how many areas of MCU story. Whoever wrote that TVA crap in whatever little room they were in is at fault. The best they came up with is what we just watched. Pretty sad.

    The more I think about it, it's literary some of the worst possible story writing. I'm sure some like the non-sense and easy "we let it happen because it was pre-determined and they were supposed to time travel" BS but the more I watched it the less entertaining it got.

    The acting was good and Hiddleston and Wilson did a really good job given what they were working so, I can only hope it gets better because this first episode doesn't work well in my eyes and It doesn't give me hope for future episodes given the direction they seem to be going.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaktar View Post
    The multiverse concept in general invalidates choice. You don't make choices, you just happen to live in the universe where these were the choices you made. Other yous are exploring the alternatives somewhere else. I could see a well written story which plays with those ideas, notions of choice are fundamental to the human experience. Of course it could also devolve into a typical "time to punch villain-Loki/sky laser fight" boring marvel climax, but I don't see how the ideas they're playing with inherently make this lazy or piss poor. It was a compelling start.
    Then if choices don't matter it pretty much invalidates anything thats ever done because it's already done. It's an age old argument thats far more boring than entertaining. Hence the bad writing to ever included it in any script. The interpretations alone for the viewer should have given them pause before writing this episode.

    So, we wont be agreeing with the compelling start thats for sure. Maybe it gets better so there is hope for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by rogueMatthias View Post

    I feel I'm going to need the Austin Powers explanation of Time Travel here...
    It might be easier to just go with a Rick and Morty episode quote.

    “Nobody exists on purpose. Nobody belongs anywhere. Everybody's gonna die. Come watch TV”
    Last edited by quras; 2021-06-14 at 05:27 PM.
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  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by quras View Post
    Then if choices don't matter it pretty much invalidates anything thats ever done because it's already done. It's an age old argument thats far more boring than entertaining. Hence the bad writing to ever included it in any script. The interpretations alone for the viewer should have given them pause before writing this episode.

    So, we wont be agreeing with the compelling start thats for sure. Maybe it gets better so there is hope for that.
    Cool, you're bored by that idea. That's okay, but it doesn't make the writing bad, it just means it's something you don't care for - everything has been done before. Haven't really seen these ideas explored in this way before, and also the story is barely started so it's hard to say what it ultimately is. Given that they're already playing with the viewer interpretations and expectations, I suspect they thought carefully about how the overall audience would react.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by quras View Post
    If garbage bullshit is what the shows going for then as a viewer it was achieved and made sure I'm far less interested to support the show. Pretty sure thats not the goal but what it is, is poor writing.
    Again, no. Nothing you've pointed to is "bad writing". You're saying you don't agree with what the TVA is doing. And? That doesn't make it "bad writing". Not unless the show is expecting you to take their side, which I'm pretty sure is not what's going on.

    Far to many interpretations in who knows how many areas of MCU story. Whoever wrote that TVA crap in whatever little room they were in is at fault. The best they came up with is what we just watched. Pretty sad.
    Yes, how dare they carry over comics canon into the MCU. The TVA weren't invented for the show, dude.

    The more I think about it, it's literary some of the worst possible story writing. I'm sure some like the non-sense and easy "we let it happen because it was pre-determined and they were supposed to time travel" BS but the more I watched it the less entertaining it got.
    You not liking something doesn't make it "bad writing".

    Then if choices don't matter it pretty much invalidates anything thats ever done because it's already done. It's an age old argument thats far more boring than entertaining. Hence the bad writing to ever included it in any script. The interpretations alone for the viewer should have given them pause before writing this episode.
    A major philosophical point on the nature of free will is "bad writing"?

    Sure, Jan.


  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Again, no. Nothing you've pointed to is "bad writing". You're saying you don't agree with what the TVA is doing. And? That doesn't make it "bad writing". Not unless the show is expecting you to take their side, which I'm pretty sure is not what's going on.
    Again, yes. That is bad writing. It's got nothing to do with which side of the TVA you might land on. It's WTF were the writers thinking with something as dumb as a group of time cops that already know the future given everything is predetermined. Whoever wrote that is mediocre writer at best and thats before we get into all the possible WTF moments in the now existent MCU and their poorly written written trope of, "well we allowed it because it was supposed to happen." thats pretty bad writing and nothing to do with the concept of TVA. It's just convenient.

    Yes, how dare they carry over comics canon into the MCU. The TVA weren't invented for the show, dude.
    As if where it came from made it better. It doesn't.

    You not liking something doesn't make it "bad writing".
    In this case it does. There are things to like about the show but the TVA isn't one of them.

    A major philosophical point on the nature of free will is "bad writing"?
    In the case of this it very much is given there is no major debate or philosophical points made. Just a we allowed this to happen so we could kill you. combined with my Captain America/Peggy example and more than likely a number of examples from the MCU and time travel. If the writers had made any good points I might could have agreed but that didn't happen either. the "because we allowed it or because it had to happen" is about as weak as it gets.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zaktar View Post
    Cool, you're bored by that idea. That's okay, but it doesn't make the writing bad, it just means it's something you don't care for - everything has been done before. Haven't really seen these ideas explored in this way before, and also the story is barely started so it's hard to say what it ultimately is. Given that they're already playing with the viewer interpretations and expectations, I suspect they thought carefully about how the overall audience would react.
    Time will tell for sure.
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  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by quras View Post
    Again, yes. That is bad writing. It's got nothing to do with which side of the TVA you might land on. It's WTF were the writers thinking with something as dumb as a group of time cops that already know the future given everything is predetermined. Whoever wrote that is mediocre writer at best and thats before we get into all the possible WTF moments in the now existent MCU and their poorly written written trope of, "well we allowed it because it was supposed to happen." thats pretty bad writing and nothing to do with the concept of TVA. It's just convenient.
    It isn't "bad writing" in any way whatsoever. You're not even explaining the problem with it. You're just expressing a personal distaste for deterministic philosophy, not quality of writing.

    In the case of this it very much is given there is no major debate or philosophical points made. Just a we allowed this to happen so we could kill you. combined with my Captain America/Peggy example and more than likely a number of examples from the MCU and time travel. If the writers had made any good points I might could have agreed but that didn't happen either. the "because we allowed it or because it had to happen" is about as weak as it gets.
    Determinism vs free will, and combatibilism.
    Moral objectivism vs relativism vs subjectivism.
    The Persistence question when it comes to identity, and how that contrasts with fission of identity.
    Legal philosophy, given that the TVA functions as a form of law enforcement.

    I could probably work out more, but those major topics are all fundamental components they've established as relevant to the story they're telling. Those are entire branches of philosophy, not small points.

    You're flat-out wrong thinking there's no philosophy being discussed, here.


  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It isn't "bad writing" in any way whatsoever. You're not even explaining the problem with it. You're just expressing a personal distaste for deterministic philosophy, not quality of writing.
    the quality of the writing tis simplistic nature they used to explain it all. the entire setup is weak at best given what wa actually written. That being, this was supposed to happen and that was not. Far to weak of a writer came up with that garbage to explain away any of the WTF moments it now creates from the MCU. Again, that being Cap/Peggy, ant man and his time in the past (multiple times at that). and any others you might want to come up with. that is poor writing at best.

    Then to use the predetermined nature concept in that nothing happens they don't know about but hen to turn around and say, sorry loki, you were not supposed to do teleport away by choice so we got to kill you. Again, it's a weak way to move forward in a story off the concept we knew you were going to do that but sorry we can't let you unless of course you work for us. But all that other time travel BS, lets right that off as we let it happen. WTF Thats bad writing just in general. The Endgame time travel was pretty bad but this writing takes the cake.

    Determinism vs free will, and combatibilism.
    Moral objectivism vs relativism vs subjectivism.
    The Persistence question when it comes to identity, and how that contrasts with fission of identity.
    Legal philosophy, given that the TVA functions as a form of law enforcement.

    I could probably work out more, but those major topics are all fundamental components they've established as relevant to the story they're telling. Those are entire branches of philosophy, not small points.

    You're flat-out wrong thinking there's no philosophy being discussed, here.
    Those points will not and will never be discussed. Not one time will they show ever present any arguments for any real moral discussion on any of those topics. you might have created this hopeful idea that they would in your head but it wont happen in the show. As said, the writers aren't good enough for that kind of material or subject matter. It will be skipped over as easy as all that previous time was just supposed to happen so we let it garbage.

    This forums will be the extent of your philosophical discussion because you can beat the show wont do it. Thats wishful thinking.
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  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by quras View Post
    the quality of the writing tis simplistic nature they used to explain it all. the entire setup is weak at best given what wa actually written. That being, this was supposed to happen and that was not. Far to weak of a writer came up with that garbage to explain away any of the WTF moments it now creates from the MCU. Again, that being Cap/Peggy, ant man and his time in the past (multiple times at that). and any others you might want to come up with. that is poor writing at best.
    You're not explaining why you think it's "bad writing".

    You're just saying you don't like deterministic philosophy.

    Which . . . isn't the show's fault, and isn't a problem with the writing.

    Then to use the predetermined nature concept in that nothing happens they don't know about but hen to turn around and say, sorry loki, you were not supposed to do teleport away by choice so we got to kill you. Again, it's a weak way to move forward in a story off the concept we knew you were going to do that but sorry we can't let you unless of course you work for us. But all that other time travel BS, lets right that off as we let it happen. WTF Thats bad writing just in general. The Endgame time travel was pretty bad but this writing takes the cake.
    Why?

    You're just declaring. Not making an argument.

    Those points will not and will never be discussed.
    Literally every one of those were brought up and demonstrated to be the themes of the show. You're wrong about this.


  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You're not explaining why you think it's "bad writing".

    You're just saying you don't like deterministic philosophy.

    Which . . . isn't the show's fault, and isn't a problem with the writing.
    Incorrect. I explained why that is bad writing. You not liking the answer is irrelevant.
    The writing for the show is currently the kind of poor response you get from people that don't care to explain anything. the ones that say, "because I said so" and leave it at that as they don't plan or want to actually write something for more substance.

    Hence why we got, "because it was supposed to happen" BS or why Caps adventure wasn't explained or Ant mans. In the end, the writing isn't strong enough to support all the possibilities so they just wrote in a because we said so and left it at that. that's poor story writing.

    Why?

    You're just declaring. Not making an argument.
    It's a statement that backups the point.


    Literally every one of those were brought up and demonstrated to be the themes of the show. You're wrong about this.
    You mean brought up and passed over just as quickly as the words came out of their mouths. you mean the topics that will not ever come up again other than to say it happened because we said so? Sorry but no. These points were not more discussed than us agreeing on the writing of the show. Briefly mentioned at best. Skipped over and never to be discussed again at worst.
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  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    Have they ever mentioned something that happened in Agents of SHIELD in the "main" MCU, though? I've always assumed that that was just a spin-off, whose canon status was...questionable.
    As of IW/EG it became 100% not canon as the timelines do not line up in that the 5 year gap between the movies is in the final season and it is not addressed and everything is normal.

    The writers from the show pretty much said that the secretive nature of the movies made the movie side of the MCU stop communicating with them.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by quras View Post
    Incorrect. I explained why that is bad writing. You not liking the answer is irrelevant.
    You said it's bad because it's bad and you don't like it.

    That's it.

    No discussion about how it's unreasonable. No plot holes or inconsistencies. None of that.

    Hence why we got, "because it was supposed to happen" BS or why Caps adventure wasn't explained or Ant mans. In the end, the writing isn't strong enough to support all the possibilities so they just wrote in a because we said so and left it at that. that's poor story writing.
    No. It isn't.

    You aren't owed any explanation as to the "why". Nor do you even know if there is a "why"; it's the first episode, and an explanation could be forthcoming. It's not particularly relevant, because this story isn't about that point in time, and the only reason to raise it was, as they did in the show, to explain that it's not a double standard.

    You mean brought up and passed over just as quickly as the words came out of their mouths. you mean the topics that will not ever come up again other than to say it happened because we said so? Sorry but no. These points were not more discussed than us agreeing on the writing of the show. Briefly mentioned at best. Skipped over and never to be discussed again at worst.
    It's the first episode.

    Complaining that we lack a full exploration of the themes of the show in the first episode is just absolutely fucking ridiculous, and demonstrates that you're not participating in good faith. Or don't understand what a narrative is.


  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by quras View Post
    Again, yes. That is bad writing. It's got nothing to do with which side of the TVA you might land on. It's WTF were the writers thinking with something as dumb as a group of time cops that already know the future given everything is predetermined. Whoever wrote that is mediocre writer at best and thats before we get into all the possible WTF moments in the now existent MCU and their poorly written written trope of, "well we allowed it because it was supposed to happen." thats pretty bad writing and nothing to do with the concept of TVA. It's just convenient.


    As if where it came from made it better. It doesn't.


    In this case it does. There are things to like about the show but the TVA isn't one of them.


    In the case of this it very much is given there is no major debate or philosophical points made. Just a we allowed this to happen so we could kill you. combined with my Captain America/Peggy example and more than likely a number of examples from the MCU and time travel. If the writers had made any good points I might could have agreed but that didn't happen either. the "because we allowed it or because it had to happen" is about as weak as it gets.




    Time will tell for sure.
    I don't think the TVA is what it seems. Like maybe the actual people involved could be also being deceived, but people were saying the murals you see in the episode among other things make it seem like the force behind the TVA is more nefarious and possibly not even telling the truth about 1 timeline.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Doesn't matter. He literally became an actual mare, and actually bred with a stallion, and actually birthed Sleipnir. That wasn't magic, that was just biology. Because Loki was a female horse. Because gender fluidity is a thing.
    This is incredibly ignorant, you can't force a gender upon anyone.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by P for Pancetta View Post
    This is incredibly ignorant, you can't force a gender upon anyone.
    Literally no one was talking about "forcing a gender" until you rolled in and made that up right there.

    To be clear; Look turning into a mare and doing the do with a magic stallion was 100% Loki's idea. Nobody made him do that.
    Last edited by Endus; 2021-06-14 at 10:44 PM.


  14. #134
    For some reason...i am heavily expecting the ending of the series to be exactly the same from " Predestination (2014)"
    "This was all supposed to happen to keep the cycle going"

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by quras View Post
    You mean brought up and passed over just as quickly as the words came out of their mouths. you mean the topics that will not ever come up again other than to say it happened because we said so? Sorry but no. These points were not more discussed than us agreeing on the writing of the show. Briefly mentioned at best. Skipped over and never to be discussed again at worst.
    You're blaming the first episode of a mini-series for not fully exploring a theme, which is ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You aren't owed any explanation as to the "why". Nor do you even know if there is a "why"; it's the first episode, and an explanation could be forthcoming. It's not particularly relevant, because this story isn't about that point in time, and the only reason to raise it was, as they did in the show, to explain that it's not a double standard.
    One thing interesting Mobius's character said was something about how they don't do "approve" or "disapprove" in the TVA, they just deal with what "is." It makes absurd happenstance (like a rat running over the controls in your quantum realm van) at the same importance of Tony's choice at the end of Endgame. It doesn't make Tony's choice irrelevant - it certainly needed to be made....it just makes it not that important in the scheme of things. And that's a storyline which rankles the average human mind, which is so egocentric that it insists every choice we make is ours and ours alone, and of the utmost importance. Which is true for literally no one, even in real life.

    This is a tale as old as.....well, at least as old as Aeneas leaving Dido in Carthage at the gods' insistence, and yet Dido still blaming him for "his choice." There's a struggle in The Aenied setting up this dilemma: Aeneas is forced by the goddess Venus (perhaps out of jealousy for their love, but that's irrelevant) to go to his fate: to reach Italy and found Rome...but Dido struggles to accept that this is anything but Aeneas's choice, to fulfill his own destiny.

    Anyways, got back from a 3 week vacation, catching up on the show, a few questions:

    1) If Ravonna had found him guilty and reset Loki, I assume they would have inserted him back in to the aftermath of the Battle of NYC? In which case the Tesseract isn't stolen, and the time heist from Endgame doesn't require the Pym side quest?

    2) If 1 is true, is the Pym side quest a variant they had to reset, but aren't now because Mobius has superceded Loki's reset?

    3) If a multiverse is happening, does the TVA know it's going to happen? Are they forced to fight it and fail? Is that their fate? Does Mobius already know it's coming, but is just playing his role? Or is there free will in the TVA, and the TVA alone? Maybe that knowledge is kept solely by the 3 Time Keepers themselves, so the TVA thinks they're making their choices while hurtling to their fate?

    4) I find the whole "fate vs. free will" argument kind of boring. Regardless of which side you land on, as Harry Potter demonstrated, it matters only how you face up to it in your life. This show can be entirely "fated" or entirely chaos-filled choices made by Loki, I don't really care. It's how these characters react, grow, and evolve in light of those actions that matters. Which is why plot is literally the weakest, and lowest common denominator in fiction. Characters are the most important. Unfortunately we live in a time where people need to be shown a thing happening to justify it.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    You're blaming the first episode of a mini-series for not fully exploring a theme, which is ridiculous.
    Not entirely no. I blame it's poor writing on the weak narrative used to explain the current WTF moments on nothing more than, because we said so. That alone is pretty shitty writing when viewed from the lenses of the MCU and all the shit thats went on. What dumbass sit in a room wrote that up and then you expect them to explain it later? Come on. Hell, wandavision had enough holes in it to drive a truck through. I'm starting to think loki will be no different in it's writing.

    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    I don't think the TVA is what it seems. Like maybe the actual people involved could be also being deceived, but people were saying the murals you see in the episode among other things make it seem like the force behind the TVA is more nefarious and possibly not even telling the truth about 1 timeline.
    I have to believe thats true because right now the show isn't interesting enough with just another loki running around. Given the premise of the show, any loki at any time that didn't make the choice they wanted is now a possible player. New TVA killing loki can just have an army of lokis form various times. He ha to have their tech now given he's been killing them and it's on their bodies. So in the end, the TVA has to be corrupt somehow. Otherwise, it's just not that interesting.
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  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by quras View Post
    Not entirely no. I blame it's poor writing on the weak narrative used to explain the current WTF moments on nothing more than, because we said so. That alone is pretty shitty writing when viewed from the lenses of the MCU and all the shit thats went on. What dumbass sit in a room wrote that up and then you expect them to explain it later? Come on. Hell, wandavision had enough holes in it to drive a truck through. I'm starting to think loki will be no different in it's writing.
    You still haven't actually explained the problem. You don't have a full understanding of everything that's going on at the end of Episode 1. That's not "bad writing". That's pacing.


    I have to believe thats true because right now the show isn't interesting enough with just another loki running around. Given the premise of the show, any loki at any time that didn't make the choice they wanted is now a possible player. New TVA killing loki can just have an army of lokis form various times. He ha to have their tech now given he's been killing them and it's on their bodies. So in the end, the TVA has to be corrupt somehow. Otherwise, it's just not that interesting.
    Except there isn't an "army of Lokis", so clearly they can't. And the only tech the other Loki's been stealing is the timeline reset devices.

    And yes; the TVA is going to turn out to not be as all-knowing and all-powerful as they claim to be. That's not "bad writing", that's literally the setup for the show. It isn't a mistake or error, in any way whatsoever.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Anyways, got back from a 3 week vacation, catching up on the show, a few questions:

    1) If Ravonna had found him guilty and reset Loki, I assume they would have inserted him back in to the aftermath of the Battle of NYC? In which case the Tesseract isn't stolen, and the time heist from Endgame doesn't require the Pym side quest?
    They would've vaporized him, if his trial had concluded. They don't re-insert anyone; a variant creates a new offshoot of the timeline, the TVA removes the variant creating that, and patches the timeline to correct any deviations they produced. The "self" that didn't branch off always existed and was never meddled with. That'd be the Loki that we saw get arrested and hauled off the first time around. That's what actually happened; the branch where this Loki grabbed the returned Tesseract and booked it was erased and never happened.

    2) If 1 is true, is the Pym side quest a variant they had to reset, but aren't now because Mobius has superceded Loki's reset?
    Nah, they stated that the "proper" timeline allows some approved time travel, and the Avengers' jaunts were approved. Why that time travel, specifically? No clear answer, but the comics provide suggestions; in the comics, the Time Keepers aren't protecting some kind of "prime timeline", they came into existence at the end of one particular kind of timeline, so they manage the timeline to ensure they'll always come into existence, and timelines where they don't stop existing as options. No idea if that'll remain true for the MCU version. But if it does, it's possible they couldn't stop Thanos, but a Snapped Universe prevents them existing for some reason, so they needed to approve the Avengers time travel to allow for a timeline where they'd exist.

    In short, you need to look at the timeline in terms of "what is the end result that's desired", not "time travel is always bad". The TVA don't agree with the latter (unsurprisingly, really, given that they make use of time travel to do their jobs).

    3) If a multiverse is happening, does the TVA know it's going to happen? Are they forced to fight it and fail? Is that their fate? Does Mobius already know it's coming, but is just playing his role? Or is there free will in the TVA, and the TVA alone? Maybe that knowledge is kept solely by the 3 Time Keepers themselves, so the TVA thinks they're making their choices while hurtling to their fate?
    They suggested a multiverse DID happen, the Time Keepers "won" and eliminated all other timelines, and now "prune" the timeline of all deviations ("variants") so there's only the one timeline, no multiverse. The "fighting the other timelines" is ancient pre-time stuff or whatever.

    Again, going back to comics (seriously, we've only got one episode, answers gotta be coming) all TVA agents were genetically engineered/cloned within the TVA, for their roles. They're not free agents and they're not "recruited"; that's the only existence they know.

    4) I find the whole "fate vs. free will" argument kind of boring. Regardless of which side you land on, as Harry Potter demonstrated, it matters only how you face up to it in your life. This show can be entirely "fated" or entirely chaos-filled choices made by Loki, I don't really care. It's how these characters react, grow, and evolve in light of those actions that matters. Which is why plot is literally the weakest, and lowest common denominator in fiction. Characters are the most important. Unfortunately we live in a time where people need to be shown a thing happening to justify it.
    This is getting outside the show and into philosophy, but people keep acting like it's a dichotomy, and compatibilism exists as an alternative to that idea.

    In a really quick and dirty sense; imagine you're deathly allergic to shellfish, and know it. Now, imagine you're at a dinner, and you've got the option of choosing the chicken salad, or the lobster roll. The lobster roll will kill you, and you're not suicidal.

    "Free will" is having the capacity to choose either roll. Which you have.

    "Fate" or "destiny" is an understanding that you will make a conscious choice consistent with the information you have and your personality; in this case, you're always gonna pick the chicken salad, and never the lobster roll, 100% of the time.

    Free will cannot be random. If it's random, then there is no analysis, no decision. It's just random chaos, made without real consideration. A pull on a slot machine is random, but you can't "free will" yourself into a jackpot payout.

    Someone understanding that you're allergic to shellfish and won't pick the lobster isn't telling you that your "fate" is to choose chicken salad, they're just stating you're a conscious being who will make an informed choice. If you understand enough, you'll be highly predictable, because there's a "you" in there making those decisions, not a die being rolled to generate random outcomes. Free will necessitates consistent decision-making; if it doesn't produce predictable, justifiable outcomes, there's no "will" behind the choices, it's just randomness.

    People focus on the "free" part and less on the "will", and I'd argue that's pretty backwards.

    Which builds right into your "character is all that matters" point, because it's character that drives decision-making. Which, in a piece of fiction, literally cannot be "free" anyway, because the author exists and the character doesn't, except as a figment. That's the root of why I always think "destiny" stories are garbage; a fictional character can't "change their destiny" because the author is writing that destiny. That's the book. Whatever they rebel against and surpass is a false destiny they were never at any risk of actually falling into. It's a non-choice that means nothing narratively, and it annoys me that writers think it's super smart. I'm pretty sure this show isn't going that route, though, given what we know about it and what's coming next in the MCU.


  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    They would've vaporized him, if his trial had concluded. They don't re-insert anyone; a variant creates a new offshoot of the timeline, the TVA removes the variant creating that, and patches the timeline to correct any deviations they produced. The "self" that didn't branch off always existed and was never meddled with. That'd be the Loki that we saw get arrested and hauled off the first time around. That's what actually happened; the branch where this Loki grabbed the returned Tesseract and booked it was erased and never happened.
    The terminology seems important. She said he was guilty, and handed down a sentence of "being reset." Whereas the vaporizing seems to be called "being pruned," like the branches of an overrun tree. I think she's legit suggesting they insert back in, and my theory would be correct that they'd "reset" the Stark-and-Cap go back to young Pym timeline.

    Plus, the "reset" devices they use surely don't vaporize people, but basically act (in my mind) sort of like the Men In Black's mind wiping thing, where they just push it back to right before the variant occured, and it continues as it should have. In fact, Ms. Minutes little infomercial implies that's exactly what happens - a variant is placed back on the main timeline.

    This also creates a massive problem in that Loki fucking off with the Tesseract fucks with Thor's past. If Loki isn't arrested, what happens to the events shown to him here, where he accidentally kills his mom, helps Thor out in Ragnarok, and dies to Thanos? When he fucks off with the Tesseract, that WHOLE TIMELINE (that Tony and Cap just casually peaced out of) becomes a variant......which either needs to be reset, or pruned. But because the circularity of it, it can't be simply pruned, because it's the 1 in 14m scenario in which the Avengers win.

    I'm wondering if Loki, at some point, will *have* to be reset, just so Thor can be Thor. IMO, that's part of the reason the writers have Loki looking at what his future was supposed to be - to plant the seed in his mind that that is what he MUST do, and complete his anti-hero arc.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    When he fucks off with the Tesseract, that WHOLE TIMELINE (that Tony and Cap just casually peaced out of) becomes a variant......which either needs to be reset, or pruned. But because the circularity of it, it can't be simply pruned, because it's the 1 in 14m scenario in which the Avengers win.
    I tried to think about that part of your comment and I've come to the conclusion I really can't figure out how all that works.

    As you said, the fact Loki escaped is part of the whole 1 in 14m scenario thing. Which means, if Loki's escape is "fixed", then Cap/Tony won't time-travel to 1970 and then you can't really be sure everything will unfold exactly the same.
    Unless... the Tesseract being anyway at Loki's feet, the MU Avengers will consider they can't reasonably pick it up, but why would they go "fuck it, let's go to the 70s" instead of just continuing to try in this timeline ?
    Or, TVA knows that whatever happened in 1970 won't have any impact on the success of the mission, so they'd rather fix the Loki's variant before it fucks up anything badly.

    So, all in all, what is there to fix ? Technically the "branching timeline" should have been fixed by the end of endgame by returning the stones, so indeed 2014's timeline only needed to have the Tesseract returned - which seems to be easily doable by the TVA itself.

    I really don't think Loki will view all that as "this is what I'm supposed to do". I'd say otherwise, if he doesn't ally with Thanos, he isn't arrested on earth, and hence he could probably something to protect his mother. He could also probably avoid... dying to Thanos' hands. Making Loki think he has to sacrifice for the greater good would be a bit out of character imo.
    Last edited by Ophenia; 2021-06-15 at 08:48 AM.

  20. #140
    Banned Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Still off the comics, TVA agents are all born and bred on-site; they're not "recruited" from the universe. So they don't have any homes to escape back to anywhere in the timeline, no allies, no resources but the TVA; even if someone did grab some gems and book it to the universe proper, the Gems would rip them apart if they tried to use them and the TVA would be all over their asses, as they'd be creating a variant.
    why they would rip then apart, is not just the power stone who does that with weak races?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    I'm wondering if Loki, at some point, will *have* to be reset, just so Thor can be Thor. IMO, that's part of the reason the writers have Loki looking at what his future was supposed to be - to plant the seed in his mind that that is what he MUST do, and complete his anti-hero arc.
    This loki escaping from the reset, and killing off the other one is prob the start of another multiverse, so, since "our thor" already passed trough all of this it does not matter, there will be ""many thors" who did not, creating the thor variations we know in the comics probably.

    That i think, is supposed to be the marvel excuse to start creating new variants of the hores in the MCU timeline, as a multiverse thing without problem.

    Like, all the heroes and villains we didn't had before (and maybe some variations of then) will be dragged into the MCU because of that. Thats prob the plot of spider-man with villains of other multiverses and main point of doctor strange movie.

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