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  1. #381
    I'm glad this post is now discussing politics and not humouring some rando with too much time on his hands.

  2. #382
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    @Mayhem

    Relax, i am not the enemy even if i do sit on the right side of the spectrum.

    I have no problem with progressive ideals or policies if there's an actual plan behind it and not just yes spending more money and hope things work out, if not the debt will no longer be an issue as they'll be dead before it becomes one. Sorry but no.
    I am in favour of long term planning and that is sadly not something i see on the left a lot that being said politics in general lacks long term planning, i previously spoke about how the left generally lost the worker class and there's a reason for that. It's not just the case here but the case over all of Europe from my understanding.
    I also don't think that the progressive side is naive or even ill intended, but i do find that a lot of things go wrong due to human incompetence, so a lack of a future plan or vision bothers me and the truth it from my experience it is shown time and time again.

    I also never claimed that the "left always wastes money", that kind of thinking in extremes is your way of thinking not mine.

    Even when admitting that coalitions exist you continue to push forward a narrative that in case something bad happened during that time it is simply because the left did not get their way and the right merely blocked it, right. The UK and US are different beasts due to their political structure that constantly goes back and forth, we also see how much good that has done for them both on the level of politics and sense of unity things have merely getting worse so has the distrust in others and so has the faith in politics further empowering extremes. "The centre won't hold" is a statement that sadly has become more and more true.

    I am not speaking about unions here or politics in favour of jobs, what i am speaking of is that all parties involved cared very little about the environment and all negatives when it came to pushing up the industry, The Southern half had it worse than the Northern half here. But yes looking to the future and investing in people and innovative technologies is an issue when your political power comes from empowering strikes and bribing people with clientelism. Now this is oversimplifying it as you can't disconnect the French Elite from Brussels from Wallonia. And you are right that's not a whole lot to go on, but you have to forgive me for not going to start bringing in certain sources as honestly, as i would first have to find some point to start as i find explaining Belgium politically to be not a simple task.

    That last comment is rather belittling and totally not needed. You are free to believe in a world where if one political ideology would disappear things would just go better, i find that kind of thinking rather extreme and even dangerous because it widens the gap, solves nothing and is a great recruitment drive for extremists, but perhaps you belong to a dark red family. I don't i find that the only way forward that is good for all involved is through a matter of compromise.

    Anyway think i said pretty much every on this that i wanted
    “My philosophy is: It’s none of my business what people say of me and think of me. I am what I am and I do what I do. I expect nothing and accept everything. And it makes life so much easier.
    ― Anthony Hopkins

  3. #383
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    Relax, i am not the enemy even if i do sit on the right side of the spectrum.
    Super relaxed, you're not the first nor the last conservative I am talking to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    I have no problem with progressive ideals or policies if there's an actual plan behind it and not just yes spending more money and hope things work out, if not the debt will no longer be an issue as they'll be dead before it becomes one. Sorry but no.
    Get this idea that government debt has to be paid down at some point out of your head, it's nonsense. It goes up, it goes down, if the debt today, creates higher GDP in the future, everything is fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    I am in favour of long term planning and that is sadly not something i see on the left a lot that being said politics in general lacks long term planning, i previously spoke about how the left generally lost the worker class and there's a reason for that.
    What's the reason for that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    It's not just the case here but the case over all of Europe from my understanding.
    And while you're at it bring explanations for the rest of Europe too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    I also don't think that the progressive side is naive or even ill intended, but i do find that a lot of things go wrong due to human incompetence, so a lack of a future plan or vision bothers me and the truth it from my experience it is shown time and time again.
    Human incompetence only found on the left. Aye, you heard it here first. Meanwhile, right governments are being sued or prosecuted constantly all around the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    I also never claimed that the "left always wastes money", that kind of thinking in extremes is your way of thinking not mine.
    No, you just claim that you don't see a lot of long-term planning on the left which is saying the same just by using different words.

    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    Even when admitting that coalitions exist you continue to push forward a narrative that in case something bad happened during that time it is simply because the left did not get their way and the right merely blocked it, right. The UK and US are different beasts due to their political structure that constantly goes back and forth, we also see how much good that has done for them both on the level of politics and sense of unity things have merely getting worse so has the distrust in others and so has the faith in politics further empowering extremes. "The centre won't hold" is a statement that sadly has become more and more true.
    Hey, I gave you the option to prove me wrong. You know, you could always produce some votes on laws that totally shut me up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    I am not speaking about unions here or politics in favour of jobs, what i am speaking of is that all parties involved cared very little about the environment and all negatives when it came to pushing up the industry, The Southern half had it worse than the Northern half here. But yes looking to the future and investing in people and innovative technologies is an issue when your political power comes from empowering strikes and bribing people with clientelism. Now this is oversimplifying it as you can't disconnect the French Elite from Brussels from Wallonia. And you are right that's not a whole lot to go on, but you have to forgive me for not going to start bringing in certain sources as honestly, as i would first have to find some point to start as i find explaining Belgium politically to be not a simple task.
    It's true, the left cared more about people having jobs and their rights than the environment. The impact was hidden or deemphasized by the right or let's say people who very likely vote right. (not particularly talking about Belgium here)

    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    That last comment is rather belittling and totally not needed. You are free to believe in a world where if one political ideology would disappear things would just go better, i find that kind of thinking rather extreme and even dangerous because it widens the gap, solves nothing and is a great recruitment drive for extremists, but perhaps you belong to a dark red family. I don't i find that the only way forward that is good for all involved is through a matter of compromise.
    Yeah, compromise with the people that constantly block or fight against rights for workers, women, lgbtq+, minorities, while polluting the planet on the grand scale what would we ever do without them. They are the great fearmongers of all time. Children not being allowed to work? well, there goes the country! 40h work week? omg end of days no company, no country could ever thrive on 40h work weeks. Women voting? oh hell no! (1948 in Belgium, fyi) those conservative ideals are just mmm yummi

    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    Anyway think i said pretty much every on this that i wanted
    great talk, take care
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  4. #384
    Merely a Setback JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    No, you see, the left is actually incompetent because their countries keep getting sanctioned by the US.

    Pull yourself up by your bootstraps and just stop being sanctioned or couped by the CIA! Its that easy
    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    it’s mostly a syndicalist fantasy that “the workers” are going to rise up, which is disconnected from the fact that “the workers” are your racist uncle and jerk co-workers who you don’t like.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    The election has passed and 58 million working class Americans stood up and proved that they are in fact your racist uncle and jerk co-workers.
    They really can't help but show disdain for the working class.

  5. #385
    If voting could change anything it would be made illegal!

  6. #386
    Quote Originally Posted by Magneto View Post
    If voting could change anything it would be made illegal!
    Just another example of someone saying something they think is incredibly clever or deep, but after 2s of reflection you realise just how idiotic it is.
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  7. #387
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Just another example of someone saying something they think is incredibly clever or deep, but after 2s of reflection you realise just how idiotic it is.
    You say that but it’s literally what the GOP are trying to do in the US. Every state they lost in, they’re introducing new restrictions to prevent people in certain areas from voting.

  8. #388
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrst View Post
    You say that but it’s literally what the GOP are trying to do in the US. Every state they lost in, they’re introducing new restrictions to prevent people in certain areas from voting.
    This means that indeed voting can change a thing. You know, the could part of the "super clever" saying is therefore stupid.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  9. #389
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Just another example of someone saying something they think is incredibly clever or deep, but after 2s of reflection you realise just how idiotic it is.
    it must be nice and comfortable to be this naive. you go!

  10. #390
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    This means that indeed voting can change a thing. You know, the could part of the "super clever" saying is therefore stupid.
    I think the nuanced point the guy is making that the system is so corrupt it will stop change if it can. Kernel of truth to that.

  11. #391
    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrst View Post
    I think the nuanced point the guy is making that the system is so corrupt it will stop change if it can. Kernel of truth to that.
    Dude, one of these days I'm going to start tearing posts up when they use the word corrupt. It's the same kind of buzzword that people use but don't understand. Everything's corrupt, going by some people's definition. Heck, I'm corrupt, because I'd do anything for that cup of coffee in the morning. It's a word without meaning at this point. You're corrupt, because you feel compelled to respond to the shit I'm putting in this post.

    Gnah.
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  12. #392
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrst View Post
    I think the nuanced point the guy is making that the system is so corrupt it will stop change if it can. Kernel of truth to that.
    So voting changes things then and is because of that tried to make illegal?
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  13. #393
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    So voting changes things then and is because of that tried to make illegal?
    To be clear, voting the GOP out would mean they lose power. So they will try to restrict voting and severely limit who can vote, so they can then cling to power. I don't agree with what Magneto said, but there's some kernel of truth in what he said, despite his edgelord disenfranchisement.

    Basically that voting triggers legislation changes to prevent voting, so in itself prevents actual substantial positive growth.

    Bear in mind I could be giving the guy way too much credit, and he didn't mean this at all.
    Last edited by Valkyrst; 2021-05-14 at 10:36 AM.

  14. #394
    Wales went to Labour again, not like they've shown over the last 20 odd years they absolutely suck at running a country or anything, but at least they are now looking into a trial of UBI with a view to rolling it out properly in the next couple of years. Not entirely sure where the money is going to come from as they will have to beg Westminster (who will most likely tell them to fuck right off) for it but you gotta start somewhere

  15. #395
    Quote Originally Posted by Attackrabbit View Post
    Wales went to Labour again, not like they've shown over the last 20 odd years they absolutely suck at running a country or anything, but at least they are now looking into a trial of UBI with a view to rolling it out properly in the next couple of years. Not entirely sure where the money is going to come from as they will have to beg Westminster (who will most likely tell them to fuck right off) for it but you gotta start somewhere
    Labour is the less useless iteration of the Tory Party. I wouldn't even be surprised if that's literally the agreement they have.

    'You be the bluster and I'll be the tumbleweed'.

  16. #396
    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrst View Post
    Labour is the less useless iteration of the Tory Party. I wouldn't even be surprised if that's literally the agreement they have.

    'You be the bluster and I'll be the tumbleweed'.
    Why would you not have such an agreement when it's alwys either one being in charge? Just go back and forth, tag team forever and you're secure. No alternatives, no threat, no need to actually do anything good.
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  17. #397
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Why would you not have such an agreement when it's alwys either one being in charge? Just go back and forth, tag team forever and you're secure. No alternatives, no threat, no need to actually do anything good.
    Innit. Bingo. Yahtzee.

  18. #398
    Merely a Setback JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrst View Post
    Labour is the less useless iteration of the Tory Party. I wouldn't even be surprised if that's literally the agreement they have.

    'You be the bluster and I'll be the tumbleweed'.
    Almost like getting rid of the one leader who was turning the party back into a left-wing party was a bad idea.
    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    it’s mostly a syndicalist fantasy that “the workers” are going to rise up, which is disconnected from the fact that “the workers” are your racist uncle and jerk co-workers who you don’t like.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    The election has passed and 58 million working class Americans stood up and proved that they are in fact your racist uncle and jerk co-workers.
    They really can't help but show disdain for the working class.

  19. #399
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrown1917 View Post
    Almost like getting rid of the one leader who was turning the party back into a left-wing party was a bad idea.
    Yup such a bad idea to get rid of the leader who gave the party the biggest loss since the end of WW2. Don't give me bubutbtubtubtutbutubtubtubtbtubt it's the media bullshit.

  20. #400
    Merely a Setback JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Yup such a bad idea to get rid of the leader who gave the party the biggest loss since the end of WW2. Don't give me bubutbtubtubtutbutubtubtubtbtubt it's the media bullshit.
    Yeah, imagine losing big because your own party keeps sabotaging the leader because they are allergic to anything left-of-centre. Great media and political system you got going. But you keep underestimating how much the media has an effect on elections, i'm sure that'll work out.

    A tory lite labour is useless, no matter if they win or not. Not that they will by how much Starmer is fucking up lmao
    Last edited by JohnBrown1917; 2021-05-18 at 04:42 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    it’s mostly a syndicalist fantasy that “the workers” are going to rise up, which is disconnected from the fact that “the workers” are your racist uncle and jerk co-workers who you don’t like.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    The election has passed and 58 million working class Americans stood up and proved that they are in fact your racist uncle and jerk co-workers.
    They really can't help but show disdain for the working class.

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