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  1. #41
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    When it comes to Hartlepool people need to realise Corbyn was super lucky to hold it. Brexit Party ran there and split the Brexit vote to the point combined essentially got the same percentage as the Tories got yesterday. Essentially the Brexit party voters instead of voting for the reform party jumped over to Bojo instead of Labour. That is where the votes went.
    I mean sure, if you ignore how much lover the voter turn-out was for Labour.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iliena View Post
    Corbyn did a lot of damage to the Labour party, which they have not recovered from,
    Yeah, im sure it had nothing to do with all the internal sabotage done by labour members.

  2. #42
    The Unstoppable Force PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrown1917 View Post
    Yeah, im sure it had nothing to do with all the internal sabotage done by labour members.
    So the labour saboteurs are crypto-liberals pretending to be progressive or what? Seems weird to join a party if you don't actually believe in the ideas/policies.
    Optimism! (HumanProgress.org)

  3. #43
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    No worries, fascists can't achieve anything. Leftists can't really achieve anything either until Europe becomes more wealthy in 40 years and then they could afford something new such as UBI. For the next decade though I just don't see anything that is politically exciting.
    Wait, do you know where Europe is? Because this reads as if you not only have no clue of history (ahem fascists can't achieve anything, wat wat wat?) but you also somehow think Europe is poor.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    It's been ten years of Tory rule topped by the disaster of Brexit. If people are still willing to vote against their interests for the most immoral and corrupt politicians we've seen in generations they're either stupid or pathetic.
    It just seems too convenient to call them all these personally demeaning terms just because they switched party loyalties. Perhaps they were always “stupid or pathetic,” but left-wingers were content to exploit them for their votes and keep quiet about their prejudices. And now maybe they’re sad that they’ve lost that ability? It’s all just too convenient for historically Labour constituencies to swap sides and immediately swap moral standing.

    I tend to believe @caractacus cultural note, or Labour Party internal faction issues preventing a robust opposition party role, or the bill bishop and David Goodhart realignment/sorting. Or some sharing between all three.

    And frankly the “How dare they swap Tory after 10 years of their misery and failure, what are they doing??” speaks more towards accepting their permanent loss. Like these aren’t 40-year Labour voters that might come back, and weren’t gone until 0-3 years ago, so there’s no reason to hide the base criticism of them as people because of their voting choices. But perhaps there’s more explanatory opinions not stated yet.
    "I wish it need not have happened in my time." "So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

  5. #45
    The story of how Labour became electorally non viable is as follows:

    Blair realised that he didn't need to court votes in the North or in Wales because they were solidly red, moves the party to the centre right to pick up swing voters down south. It works, he wins big and then focuses all economic development on London, leaves great swaths of the UK to continue their atrophy. Also of note is that during the New Labour years we get Devolution in Scotland and Wales.

    2008 rolls round, New Labour gets the blame for causing a world wide economic recession that began in the USA. The SNP begin to take near enough every seat in Scotland.

    Cameron sanitises the Conservative image, they aren't outright nasty to the working class anymore.

    Cameron wins power, begins "Austerity lol",Labour get the blame.

    Ed Milliband fails to eat a bacon sandwich correctly, loses an election.

    Jeremy Corbyn becomes Labour leader. Thus begins JEREMY CORBYN WILL RUIN THE ECONOMY! (I can't put enough exclamation marks down here, word limit doesn't go to infinity).

    Cameron decides he wants his peers to see how clever he is so he tries to settle the EU issue with a referendum, it goes horrifically wrong. Cameron resigns, fixing the damage you've done is hard and lobbying is far more profitable. In comes May.

    May finds organising her party post Brexit is like herding cats. She sets about providing the most strong and stable government the UK has or will ever see, she tells us all this endlessly. She's so strong and stable she calls a GE and writes a suicide note for a manifesto where she tells people they will have to give up any their inheritance to pay for mom and pops care once they can't look after themselves.

    Jeremy Corbyn comes within touching distance of winning the GE despite everyone coming out to bat against him, including his own party. He then gets horrifically injured trying to ride 2 horses whilst Parliament behaves like some kind of democracy where parties have to cooperate and compromise to get something done...only this is completely alien to the mother of all parliament's and no cooperation or compromise materialises.

    BoJo comes in. Get Brexit done he says! He slays the hated Jeremy Corbyn who was going to ruin the economy with all his socialism and economic handouts.

    BoJo gets Brexit done!...by changing his opinion on Northern Ireland and him and his fellow Brexiteers realise that all the issues that were a BETRAYAL under May suddenly aren't an issue anymore.

    OMG Covid! BoJo fucks about, kills people and then begins massive socialism that would have RUINED THE ECONOMY if Jeremy Corbyn had done it.

    Did I mention Sir Keir Starmer became leader of the Labour party? He promises to continue Corbyn's legacy and hold BoJo to account. He immediately begins to purge the Labour party of Corbynism and lends BoJo his unmitigated support.

    Covid goes really badly...twice. But thanks to greed and capitalism we get the vaccine! The NHS are heralded as heroes through it all so BoJo offers them an effective pay cut. BUT WE HAVE THE VACCINE NURR NURR NURR NA NURR NURR!

    Local elections loom, Cummings tells the media that BoJo got donors to pay for his flat and he would happily see his people dead so long as his mates can make money. However no one cares apparently, this is what we now expect of our PM and he's really good at telling us all how great everything is going and will continue to go and he's getting Brexit done so all is forgiven.

    Blairites complain that it's Corbyn's fault they just lost big in the local elections, the left says it's because Labour isn't socialist enough, neither is right.

    All hail BoJo the clown, may he reign eternal.

  6. #46
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    It just seems too convenient to call them all these personally demeaning terms just because they switched party loyalties. Perhaps they were always “stupid or pathetic,” but left-wingers were content to exploit them for their votes and keep quiet about their prejudices. And now maybe they’re sad that they’ve lost that ability? It’s all just too convenient for historically Labour constituencies to swap sides and immediately swap moral standing.

    I tend to believe @caractacus cultural note, or Labour Party internal faction issues preventing a robust opposition party role, or the bill bishop and David Goodhart realignment/sorting. Or some sharing between all three.

    And frankly the “How dare they swap Tory after 10 years of their misery and failure, what are they doing??” speaks more towards accepting their permanent loss. Like these aren’t 40-year Labour voters that might come back, and weren’t gone until 0-3 years ago, so there’s no reason to hide the base criticism of them as people because of their voting choices. But perhaps there’s more explanatory opinions not stated yet.
    Calling people out for voting for corrupt ghouls is more than fair, be it Starmer or BoJo. Who gives a fuck who they voted for before?

  7. #47
    The Unstoppable Force PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Wait, do you know where Europe is? Because this reads as if you not only have no clue of history (ahem fascists can't achieve anything, wat wat wat?) but you also somehow think Europe is poor.
    C'mon, that was last century, when are you going to let that go? Europeans are so enlightened now that you don't have to worry about electing a psychotic violent ideologue who will genocide millions and start a world war.
    Optimism! (HumanProgress.org)

  8. #48
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    C'mon, that was last century, when are you going to let that go? Europeans are so enlightened now that you don't have to worry about electing a psychotic violent ideologue who will genocide millions and start a world war.
    Yeah, that explains why the fascist parties in so many European countries(Germany not included, ironically) are just gaining and gaining votes.

  9. #49
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    C'mon, that was last century, when are you going to let that go? Europeans are so enlightened now that you don't have to worry about electing a psychotic violent ideologue who will genocide millions and start a world war.
    That makes no sense. Your answer to "fascists get elected in Europe" was "fascists can't achieve anything" and now you're saying "fascists will not be elected".
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrown1917 View Post
    Calling people out for voting for corrupt ghouls is more than fair, be it Starmer or BoJo. Who gives a fuck who they voted for before?
    You aren’t trying to explain their switching of sides based on them being horrible people. It isn’t explanatory, no matter what your political ideology informs you on whether or not they made the right choice. “Why did they swap?” is different than “Why I think they made the wrong choice.”
    "I wish it need not have happened in my time." "So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrown1917 View Post

    Yeah, im sure it had nothing to do with all the internal sabotage done by labour members.
    So you ok with reports of Antisemitism being swept under the carpet?

  12. #52
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    You aren’t trying to explain their switching of sides based on them being horrible people. It isn’t explanatory, no matter what your political ideology informs you on whether or not they made the right choice. “Why did they swap?” is different than “Why I think they made the wrong choice.”
    I actually don't think most swapped, I think many just did not vote or vote for 3rd party. Or you know, the whole thing about how demographics change.
    But yeah, those who swapped just weren't happy that labour was not racist enough for them.

  13. #53
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iliena View Post
    So you ok with reports of Antisemitism being swept under the carpet?
    Those claims were made by dishonest actors and literal wreckers. It was completely bogus. The Blairites simply did everything in their power to maintain control.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrown1917 View Post
    I actually don't think most swapped, I think many just did not vote or vote for 3rd party. Or you know, the whole thing about how demographics change.
    But yeah, those who swapped just weren't happy that labour was not racist enough for them.
    The numbers I saw was loss in Labour support going to Tories in excess of going towards third parties. You may correct me if I’m wrong.

    Also, same problem, explaining the Labour loss as a defect in the voters. Unless you have evidence that Labour was much more racist recently and it was key to their prior performances, this sounds like more non-explanation of why it happened. Win, it’s because the policies are great, lose, it’s because the voters became racist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iliena View Post
    So you ok with reports of Antisemitism being swept under the carpet?
    Is this still an issue post-Corbyn? Like an issue that matters to UK voters?
    "I wish it need not have happened in my time." "So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post

    Is this still an issue post-Corbyn? Like an issue that matters to UK voters?
    If you think the red wall was lost because (if we are being charitable with our description) socially conservative voters just couldn't back a party that may have been institutionally anti semetic then I have a bridge to sell you.

    It never mattered.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by starkister View Post
    --
    But this is your first ever post on the forums, where did you explain it previously?
    Last edited by Rozz; 2021-05-08 at 12:33 PM.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Attackrabbit View Post
    But this is your first ever post on the forums, where did you explain it previously?
    A previous post on a different account?

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Iliena View Post
    So you ok with reports of Antisemitism being swept under the carpet?
    I'll believe that Brits actually care about anti-semitism when they torch the Cathedral of Lincoln to the ground and not a moment sooner.

    Also, this tweet is WAY more anti-semitic than anything they accused Corbyn of.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Tories and BoJo seem pretty reasonable. I feel like leftist parties in Western Europe have run out of major proposals to fight for, such as universal healthcare. The left's proposals seem either minor at this point, and therefore not very motivating, or they are too economically illiberal to gain the support of the establishment and the majority.
    I think the fact that Brits consider Boris's "let the bodies pile high" comment to be "reasonable" shows that the biggest problem the left faces in the UK is that British culture is diseased.
    Last edited by Zython; 2021-05-07 at 08:16 PM.

  19. #59
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    The numbers I saw was loss in Labour support going to Tories in excess of going towards third parties. You may correct me if I’m wrong.
    Election results don't track who a person previously voted for

    Also, same problem, explaining the Labour loss as a defect in the voters. Unless you have evidence that Labour was much more racist recently and it was key to their prior performances, this sounds like more non-explanation of why it happened. Win, it’s because the policies are great, lose, it’s because the voters became racist.

    Whether they became more racist over time or not is not something I give a fuck about.
    I don't really care about how racist labour was seen/is seen, the point remains that people who vote tory either benefit from its economic policies/think they will or are racist as fuck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iliena View Post
    So you ok with reports of Antisemitism being swept under the carpet?
    I mean, we already know that the shit they made up about Cobyn turned out to be bullshit.
    But hey, good job, with all those fake reports any real reports will now be less believable! A true victory.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    The numbers I saw was loss in Labour support going to Tories in excess of going towards third parties. You may correct me if I’m wrong.

    Also, same problem, explaining the Labour loss as a defect in the voters. Unless you have evidence that Labour was much more racist recently and it was key to their prior performances, this sounds like more non-explanation of why it happened. Win, it’s because the policies are great, lose, it’s because the voters became racist.

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    Is this still an issue post-Corbyn? Like an issue that matters to UK voters?
    Not really, I didn't mention it in my original post. However it was mentioned in response about the dissenting voices from within the Labour party, which at the time Corbyn attempted to just hand wave away instead of addressing it properly.

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