What's Happening in UK? Elections!

[Iliena]

Scotland IS its own country. Go to Scotland and say "It's pretty nice here in England!"

See what they have to say about that.

Where did I say anything to suggest they are not there own country? Stop being so pedantic.

The subject in my original post was regarding political motivations, nothing to do with Scotland's sovereignty, as I said in my original post if they vote to leave the union let them (with the fuck up that was Brexit, I wouldn't blame them)

They have been in the union since the 1700's and and we are intertwined in so many ways so a split won't be easy. IMO it will be worse for Scotland, so I hope they are better served by there politicians with correct information and achievable plan's, not just nationalism being the deciding factor like it was with Brexit.

[DingDongKing]

this is beyond sad now

I don’t even know who the dude is when he’s not banned. But whomever he is, oh boy.

[Mayhem]

Yes, we conservatives are not humans clearly. We are a different species because only others vote against party lines. Yes i am mocking you if you truly believe that.

You are simply biased, either through limited experiences or the media. What you see in your own party you will see elsewhere. To me it really comes across like you need to demonize "the other side".

If i mirrored your attitude, i would say that from my experience and my media reporting. The socialist been in it for themselves as their parties have been rampant with corruption, which includes not just nepotism but also self enrichment at the cost of others. It is even so that because of that and their big disconnect with the working class, the class they aided and thus in return made them big is completely lost to them. What shows as in Europe their numbers have been dwindling and their elections are pretty bleak.

In any case you have your mind set on believing something, what is a shame because you block yourself off and contribute to part of the political division, what is a big problem.

I don't need to demonize "the other side" I just need to go by the voting history of their respective representatives. Equality, blocked or fought against by conservatives, rights, blocked or fought against by conservatives. I also never said socialists can't be assholes or work for themselves. Your argument that socialists aren't being voted for because of corruption and nepotism is funny when that is the hallmark of conservatism yet they do get voted for, which tells me either socialist voters actually care about that shit and vote accordingly as in abstaining or moving to other parties, or that conservatives are better at playing the media game.

So not sure what you read into my posts but there is no attitude, I base my assertion on readily available information, not media reports or propaganda.

[Slant]

Where did I say anything to suggest they are not there own country? Stop being so pedantic.

The subject in my original post was regarding political motivations, nothing to do with Scotland's sovereignty, as I said in my original post if they vote to leave the union let them (with the fuck up that was Brexit, I wouldn't blame them)

They have been in the union since the 1700's and and we are intertwined in so many ways so a split won't be easy. IMO it will be worse for Scotland, so I hope they are better served by there politicians with correct information and achievable plan's, not just nationalism being the deciding factor like it was with Brexit.

Pedantic? LOL. This is where all of this is coming from:

It's no simple thing for Scotland to leave the UK and keep the standard of living they currently have, far to much of Scotland's infrastructure is controlled and subsidised via Westminster. Now if they are aware of all the facts and possible problems it could cause but still want to leave, fine by me tbh.

It reminds me of the recent talk from Texas on some levels wanting to secede, and how politicians use it as a tool to stir up support.

There you go, you making a wild claim out of your ass, not backing it up and now you're too lazy to defend and call people pedantic when they call you out.

Here's why you're wrong:

Texas is not its own country. And there is no way in the US constitutional system for a state to seceede. The last time someone tried that, the US entered arguably the bloodiest war in their history. With themselves. It was a time in history that was so severe that the rebuilding attempts from that war named an entire era.

Scotland? They have a constitutional way out. They ARE their own country. All that needs to happen here is for them to constitutionally leave the Union of the United Kingdom. And unlike Texas, who really just think they're the diamond that god shat onto the Earth and can survive on their own, thankyouverymuch, Scotland's motivation to leave is to rejoin the EU. And that dramatically changes the conditions for the independence, as the EU pretty much requires Scotland to stay within constitutional bounds for their plan.

So no. It's not the same. Not even close. It's not pedantic, it's NECESSARY DETAILS that you have to know about if you want to talk about it in the POLITICS section of a forum. If you don't like it, I could suggest going to "chat" and hang out there, people won't question you too much as pretty much everything in there is superficial small talk, you know the type of conversation you seem eager to engage in.

[Iliena]

Pedantic? LOL. This is where all of this is coming from:

There you go, you making a wild claim out of your ass, not backing it up and now you're too lazy to defend and call people pedantic when they call you out.

I will bite seeing you are not willing to do any leg work yourself:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...islation-vote-
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/poli...eferendum-act/
https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...secession-from

I hope those are enough sources for you

While it isn't the exact same circumstances between the 2, I again point out its politicians using them for political gain without talking about the ramifications, like when they got bad weather in Texas a couple of months ago and couldn't cope, but yet the politicians still want to go it alone.

Edit:
If Scotland leaves the union:
https://www.ft.com/content/ff6c0f6b-...a-878e2260cf3e
https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinio...-duffy-3100330
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...ndemic-struck/

I spent only 2 minutes getting the scottish ones google is full of more examples.

[Demolitia]

https://www.reservebank.scot/#gsc.tab=0

Scotland... is... a... real... country. People have got to stop thinking of Scotland as like... a district of the UK. Of course there are going to be issues that need to be addressed. But unlike, say, Serbia, who needs to solve its daddy issues with Putin and... oh, the fact that Serbia hates everyone else on the Balkan and thinks anything north of Greece should really be their vassals, Scotland is in a very good position to resolve all those issues within a year and then get going with the accession.

About beneficiary or not, Scotland is hardly going to be a beggar like those Eastern European countries. That's just English propaganda to make themselves feel better.

You should actually check the website you linked.
And you should really not understimate those challenges. The EU will not fast track Scotland just to spite the UK. Even if it does, the steps and timeline in the accession process as it currently is in the treaties would take quite a bit more than a year

[Slant]

You should actually check the website you linked.
And you should really not understimate those challenges. The EU will not fast track Scotland just to spite the UK. Even if it does, the steps and timeline in the accession process as it currently is in the treaties would take quite a bit more than a year

I rarely spend more than two seconds on the links I post here. Good catch, that was a foul link. But it's the first one in.. forever, so I'm good. Funny though... lol.

[Draco-Onis]

You should actually check the website you linked.
And you should really not understimate those challenges. The EU will not fast track Scotland just to spite the UK. Even if it does, the steps and timeline in the accession process as it currently is in the treaties would take quite a bit more than a year

I doubt anyone thinks the process will take a year for anything look at Brexit, leaving the UK and restructuring itself as an independent nation will also take a long time. However if the Scottish people want to take on that challenge they are free to do so and they can do all these processes together since they will take very long.

[Acidbaron]

I don't need to demonize "the other side" I just need to go by the voting history of their respective representatives. Equality, blocked or fought against by conservatives, rights, blocked or fought against by conservatives. I also never said socialists can't be assholes or work for themselves. Your argument that socialists aren't being voted for because of corruption and nepotism is funny when that is the hallmark of conservatism yet they do get voted for, which tells me either socialist voters actually care about that shit and vote accordingly as in abstaining or moving to other parties, or that conservatives are better at playing the media game.

So not sure what you read into my posts but there is no attitude, I base my assertion on readily available information, not media reports or propaganda.

Well that's too bad,

I do read a lot of bitterness and resentment in your post towards people like me, lumping us all together as if we are first of all not individuals with their own opinion and views.

I also don't agree that conservatives are always on the wrong side of history. My point about socialism and corruption was to highlight something, to point out it isn't unique to a certain ideology, secondly when you say something like conservative you use a very broad term that encompasses everyone from centre right to far right, although i do have my own opinion about certain trains of thought inside the conservative family and that there being very little ideology behind it, soit.

You even go a step further and say because socialists care they actually no longer vote for parties accused of corruption because only progressive voters, care. Sorry but that's some mighty mental gymnastics there to again demonize an ideology you don't agree with.

At the end of the day we are more a like than you would think and even if politically we differ, the idea that one is humane and the other is not or in otherwords one prefers to see other suffer and their nation prosper and the other does not is simply absurd. It again contributes to the divisiveness, communication is key to understanding and finding common ground, again your experience will vary depending on what part of the world you are from and what country, Belgian politics have always been a game of compromise to succeed.

[Mayhem]

Well that's too bad,

I do read a lot of bitterness and resentment in your post towards people like me, lumping us all together as if we are first of all not individuals with their own opinion and views.

I also don't agree that conservatives are always on the wrong side of history. My point about socialism and corruption was to highlight something, to point out it isn't unique to a certain ideology, secondly when you say something like conservative you use a very broad term that encompasses everyone from centre right to far right, although i do have my own opinion about certain trains of thought inside the conservative family and that there being very little ideology behind it, soit.

You even go a step further and say because socialists care they actually no longer vote for parties accused of corruption because only progressive voters, care. Sorry but that's some mighty mental gymnastics there to again demonize an ideology you don't agree with.

At the end of the day we are more a like than you would think and even if politically we differ, the idea that one is humane and the other is not or in otherwords one prefers to see other suffer and their nation prosper and the other does not is simply absurd. It again contributes to the divisiveness, communication is key to understanding and finding common ground, again your experience will vary depending on what part of the world you are from and what country, Belgian politics have always been a game of compromise to succeed.

Yeah, for far too long people from the right asked for the other side to come to the table and fight divisiveness when they are the ones that are responsible for the divide in the first place. Sorry, you might not be a bad person, but whatever makes you think conservatives care for more than themselves is nothing but wishful thinking or you're part of the in-group.

There is no bitterness on my part, I will keep fighting for everyone, and if I have to drag each and every conservative to the finish line so be it. All I can say from the various conservative parties, their legislation, their history, they have yet to come up with one argument that is good because it's conservative in nature.

[Acidbaron]

Yeah, for far too long people from the right asked for the other side to come to the table and fight divisiveness when they are the ones that are responsible for the divide in the first place. Sorry, you might not be a bad person, but whatever makes you think conservatives care for more than themselves is nothing but wishful thinking or you're part of the in-group.

There is no bitterness on my part, I will keep fighting for everyone, and if I have to drag each and every conservative to the finish line so be it. All I can say from the various conservative parties, their legislation, their history, they have yet to come up with one argument that is good because it's conservative in nature.

My problem is that you are speaking rather about people than the political ideology. Bad actors are all around. The far left here is also rather effective in spreading divisiveness, if i am not mistake both right and left on the extremes spend a lot of money on their social media propaganda machine.

To give some exact examples what i am speaking off. Fiscal responsibility, far too easily on the progressive side they speak of investing in the future but have no real long term plan how to deal with the debt, this is a problem for future generations. Governments don't even look at how to reduce the debt at all they just push it forward into the future.

This might not seem like an issue, but it is especially if you understand inflation and the markets. It could mean if i ever have kids that they would earn more money than me but it would be worth less than i what i earn now in a globalized economy even with an unified currency in the EU this could spell trouble.

Another is idealism at the cost of the working class, i am all for renewables and making things greener, but not by adding extra rules and taxes that mostly impact the working class negatively, it is this what i accuse the green parties off and considering their success with good educated and well paid young couples you see other left parties mimicking part of that message. Because of those naive and rushed actions that promoted solar panels without creating some sort of endgame, people now stand to lose money with their solar panels. My party now has to see to clear up that mess.

And another big point is you have conservative parties that are big on "conserving" and rebuilding nature parks, i always found it odd that this isn't happening more on the right. As it is a matter of heritage and pride in ones region.

Now again it all depends where you are from, if it's the US i can agree with you because conservatism there is linked with people like trump, a "politician" who doesn't have a single ideological bone in his body, one could argue something like that about VP Cheney also, that's why i also confronted people a few times here who declared themself as trump supporter and conservative, to list me what conservative values he is in support of and lives by, as you can imagine i barely to never got a reply on it.

I stand by it that both political movements have a future and both need to counter each other and find compromise, that's how you move forward. But for that we need to go back to the essence, back to the dialogue and not the series of monologues that are just bait or used to rile people up and both sides do it. More in people towards the centre less so towards the extreme's being it right and left and to do that we need to listen to each other and get to know each other again.

Anyway you are entitled to your opinion, so might decide to not pursue this further as it's getting rather off topic.

[Mayhem]

Your problem is that you read stuff into my posts that I never wrote.

Please, don't pretend fiscal responsibility is part of conservatism, that's just laughable.

If you'd understand inflation and the markets you'd not be talking about debt, but alas here you are. Could it be that the added rules and taxes that mostly impact the working class are because they can't increase taxes on the wealthy? Your highest tax rate is 50% our highest tax rate is 55%, but your lower and middle classes are taxed higher than ours, interesting. That's the first time I ever read of a conservative party that is in the business of rebuilding nature, I am as much surprised as you are.

A lot of talk without saying what your conservative values are.

[Acidbaron]

Your problem is that you read stuff into my posts that I never wrote.

Please, don't pretend fiscal responsibility is part of conservatism, that's just laughable.

If you'd understand inflation and the markets you'd not be talking about debt, but alas here you are. Could it be that the added rules and taxes that mostly impact the working class are because they can't increase taxes on the wealthy? Your highest tax rate is 50% our highest tax rate is 55%, but your lower and middle classes are taxed higher than ours, interesting. That's the first time I ever read of a conservative party that is in the business of rebuilding nature, I am as much surprised as you are.

A lot of talk without saying what your conservative values are.

Laugh you may, but this is a thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiscal_conservatism

If i understand inflation and markets i wouldn't be talking about debt? Come again? Again considering you won't take my word for this might want to read into this.
You know that printed money has to have its value from somewhere right? I rather not saddle future generations with the ever increasing debt, because apparently people are okay with going for sloppy innovation and just shifting the bill to 2060 and beyond, i rather not be seen as yet another "boomer" generation.

Taxation in Belgium is something you won't find me disagreeing on. My party has been side lined by a coalition of 6 or 7 parties while having taken a rather sizeable amount of votes in the federal elections. I am however against an wealth tax but there are things that should be looked into elsewhere. The discussion in Belgium about taxation is a difficult matter as you are also dealing with two regions that differ in wealth on top of a different political landscape and to add further complexity to that matter there's a language barrier and one cannot vote across the barrier in federal elections what creates absurd situations.

The problem in my opinion with our taxation is, unlike in let's say the Netherlands. When you make more than 30K there the money earned above 30K is taxed at a higher rate, while the amount made before falls under the lower bracket. In Belgium, let's say you make a promotion and earn 31K you could stand to earn less money after taxation as your entire income would fall under that higher bracket. (Not sure if 30K is the amount in Belgium, work across the border so i pay my income tax there)

You see respect for nature to be a thing in quite a few places the odd thing is that often industry interests are giving priority what cause pollution. My own party is in the process of re-buying industrial zones and giving them back to reservoirs. There's also talks about a "concrete stop" (betonstop) but that's not really going far enough. There's also more money being pumped in re-planting forests and preserving and restoring natural habitats. Can link to exact articles but they aren't in English.

[Mayhem]

Fiscal conservatism is not the same thing as fiscal responsibility. Don't tell me you're a fan of privatization a thing the Nazis practically invented.

Yeah, if you'd understand inflation and markets you wouldn't be talking about debt. Not even economists agree how much debt is too much debt, you're not an economist I'd guess. Considering you talk about printed money (lul) I am pretty certain that you're not an economist. Want an example that might boggle your mind? Austria was paid by lenders to increase its debt. Yes, lenders paid Austria to lend it money. Government debt is not comparable to private debt, so talking about who's going to pay or how it's going to be paid is pointless because if the country does well, it will be paid. So unless your government plans to reduce their gdp while increase debt-based government spending your imaginary kids will be fine, also it'll be their government doing it so you don't need to worry.

Of course you're against a wealth tax, I am not surprised. The tax brackets in Belgium are 13k-24k - 40%, 24k-41k - 45%, 41k+ 50%. That you guys do it like that is well stupid, who came up with it?

Well, I am glad that some conservatives are trying to make things right, makes you wonder who destroyed nature on the grand scale in the first place.

See of course you can find some individuals that do right, but if you look at who they're in bed with then things become a bit different. And I tend to judge parties not just by what they do, but also with whom they align themselves, and in Europe, that means on the EU lvl.

[Acidbaron]

Fiscal conservatism is not the same thing as fiscal responsibility. Don't tell me you're a fan of privatization a thing the Nazis practically invented.

Yeah, if you'd understand inflation and markets you wouldn't be talking about debt. Not even economists agree how much debt is too much debt, you're not an economist I'd guess. Considering you talk about printed money (lul) I am pretty certain that you're not an economist. Want an example that might boggle your mind? Austria was paid by lenders to increase its debt. Yes, lenders paid Austria to lend it money. Government debt is not comparable to private debt, so talking about who's going to pay or how it's going to be paid is pointless because if the country does well, it will be paid. So unless your government plans to reduce their gdp while increase debt-based government spending your imaginary kids will be fine, also it'll be their government doing it so you don't need to worry.

Of course you're against a wealth tax, I am not surprised. The tax brackets in Belgium are 13k-24k - 40%, 24k-41k - 45%, 41k+ 50%. That you guys do it like that is well stupid, who came up with it?

Well, I am glad that some conservatives are trying to make things right, makes you wonder who destroyed nature on the grand scale in the first place.

See of course you can find some individuals that do right, but if you look at who they're in bed with then things become a bit different. And I tend to judge parties not just by what they do, but also with whom they align themselves, and in Europe, that means on the EU lvl.

They are and no not everything has to be about privatization either.
The i am not an economist response is well weak, it's pretty much trying to attack me in person rather than replying to the matter at hand. Not it is not directly comparable to private debt but that doesn't mean it should be ignored and it should be pushed into the future with no plans of relieving it in segments through out the years. I understand now why you subscribe to leftist ideologies so much, they also all think rather short term when it comes to spending and long term preferably generations past when it comes to debt. GDP can change and not for the better, hyper inflation is a thing.

Not sure who came up with it but here's the kicker for you, the majority of Belgium political past has always been a coalition of left and centre right. That's why i do not subscribe to your Boogeyman view of the politics.

Again the idea that only one political end of the spectrum caused the current ecological disaster is not just propaganda it is an insult to ones intelligence and a lack of knowledge when it comes to history, the left has always the worker class party for the longest time and those were always in favour of jobs, often jobs that were low skilled and often were paired with ecological disasters we see now.

FYI the southern half of Belgium is even deeper into that and they have always had a favour for leftist ideologies, although i would argue clientelism plays a big part of that. A reason why they dropped below the Northern half economically is that they kept for the longest time putting money in failing and dirty industries without looking to invest and innovate in others, on a political level that is i am sure plenty companies and individuals tried.

Honestly this vision you have that the left is ideologically more sound or pure is in my opinion a very unrealistic view of the world.

[Mayhem]

They are and no not everything has to be about privatization either.
The i am not an economist response is well weak, it's pretty much trying to attack me in person rather than replying to the matter at hand. Not it is not directly comparable to private debt but that doesn't mean it should be ignored and it should be pushed into the future with no plans of relieving it in segments through out the years. I understand now why you subscribe to leftist ideologies so much, they also all think rather short term when it comes to spending and long term preferably generations past when it comes to debt. GDP can change and not for the better, hyper inflation is a thing.

GDP can change, what a brilliant rebuke. Things can change, now that is something totally unheard of, I wasn't aware. You continue to show your lack of knowledge about government debt but rather attack me based on your indoctrinated belief that the left always wastes money. Bold move cotton.

Not sure who came up with it but here's the kicker for you, the majority of Belgium political past has always been a coalition of left and centre right. That's why i do not subscribe to your Boogeyman view of the politics.

I know, I've looked it up, you know, because I fucking research shit before I talk about it.
We also had for the most time a coalition of left and right, that doesn't miraculously mean the left gets everything they want or are at all times in charge. The right still can and does block things, evidence my countries political history, Americans political history, British political history... I see a pattern. Considering you can't be arsed to look it up but rather attack me for my "boogeyman view of the politics" is quite telling. Are you sure you're not just projecting?

Again the idea that only one political end of the spectrum caused the current ecological disaster is not just propaganda it is an insult to ones intelligence and a lack of knowledge when it comes to history, the left has always the worker class party for the longest time and those were always in favour of jobs, often jobs that were low skilled and often were paired with ecological disasters we see now.

Please, read that argument again, you can't be seriously arguing that the ones working the jobs are responsible for the decisions of the owners and their aligned parties, talk about insult to intelligence.

FYI the southern half of Belgium is even deeper into that and they have always had a favour for leftist ideologies, although i would argue clientelism plays a big part of that. A reason why they dropped below the Northern half economically is that they kept for the longest time putting money in failing and dirty industries without looking to invest and innovate in others, on a political level that is i am sure plenty companies and individuals tried.

That is not too much information, sorry. Could you link me something more profound than just "they dropped below the north economically because the left poured money into failing and dirty industries"?

Honestly this vision you have that the left is ideologically more sound or pure is in my opinion a very unrealistic view of the world.

Of course it is, but we are glad to help you too, despite you not being up to the task. You're welcome.

[DingDongKing]

I'm glad this post is now discussing politics and not humouring some rando with too much time on his hands.

[Acidbaron]

@Mayhem

Relax, i am not the enemy even if i do sit on the right side of the spectrum.

I have no problem with progressive ideals or policies if there's an actual plan behind it and not just yes spending more money and hope things work out, if not the debt will no longer be an issue as they'll be dead before it becomes one. Sorry but no.
I am in favour of long term planning and that is sadly not something i see on the left a lot that being said politics in general lacks long term planning, i previously spoke about how the left generally lost the worker class and there's a reason for that. It's not just the case here but the case over all of Europe from my understanding.
I also don't think that the progressive side is naive or even ill intended, but i do find that a lot of things go wrong due to human incompetence, so a lack of a future plan or vision bothers me and the truth it from my experience it is shown time and time again.

I also never claimed that the "left always wastes money", that kind of thinking in extremes is your way of thinking not mine.

Even when admitting that coalitions exist you continue to push forward a narrative that in case something bad happened during that time it is simply because the left did not get their way and the right merely blocked it, right. The UK and US are different beasts due to their political structure that constantly goes back and forth, we also see how much good that has done for them both on the level of politics and sense of unity things have merely getting worse so has the distrust in others and so has the faith in politics further empowering extremes. "The centre won't hold" is a statement that sadly has become more and more true.

I am not speaking about unions here or politics in favour of jobs, what i am speaking of is that all parties involved cared very little about the environment and all negatives when it came to pushing up the industry, The Southern half had it worse than the Northern half here. But yes looking to the future and investing in people and innovative technologies is an issue when your political power comes from empowering strikes and bribing people with clientelism. Now this is oversimplifying it as you can't disconnect the French Elite from Brussels from Wallonia. And you are right that's not a whole lot to go on, but you have to forgive me for not going to start bringing in certain sources as honestly, as i would first have to find some point to start as i find explaining Belgium politically to be not a simple task.

That last comment is rather belittling and totally not needed. You are free to believe in a world where if one political ideology would disappear things would just go better, i find that kind of thinking rather extreme and even dangerous because it widens the gap, solves nothing and is a great recruitment drive for extremists, but perhaps you belong to a dark red family. I don't i find that the only way forward that is good for all involved is through a matter of compromise.

Anyway think i said pretty much every on this that i wanted

[Mayhem]

Relax, i am not the enemy even if i do sit on the right side of the spectrum.

Super relaxed, you're not the first nor the last conservative I am talking to.

I have no problem with progressive ideals or policies if there's an actual plan behind it and not just yes spending more money and hope things work out, if not the debt will no longer be an issue as they'll be dead before it becomes one. Sorry but no.

Get this idea that government debt has to be paid down at some point out of your head, it's nonsense. It goes up, it goes down, if the debt today, creates higher GDP in the future, everything is fine.

I am in favour of long term planning and that is sadly not something i see on the left a lot that being said politics in general lacks long term planning, i previously spoke about how the left generally lost the worker class and there's a reason for that.

What's the reason for that?

It's not just the case here but the case over all of Europe from my understanding.

And while you're at it bring explanations for the rest of Europe too.

I also don't think that the progressive side is naive or even ill intended, but i do find that a lot of things go wrong due to human incompetence, so a lack of a future plan or vision bothers me and the truth it from my experience it is shown time and time again.

Human incompetence only found on the left. Aye, you heard it here first. Meanwhile, right governments are being sued or prosecuted constantly all around the world.

I also never claimed that the "left always wastes money", that kind of thinking in extremes is your way of thinking not mine.

No, you just claim that you don't see a lot of long-term planning on the left which is saying the same just by using different words.

Even when admitting that coalitions exist you continue to push forward a narrative that in case something bad happened during that time it is simply because the left did not get their way and the right merely blocked it, right. The UK and US are different beasts due to their political structure that constantly goes back and forth, we also see how much good that has done for them both on the level of politics and sense of unity things have merely getting worse so has the distrust in others and so has the faith in politics further empowering extremes. "The centre won't hold" is a statement that sadly has become more and more true.

Hey, I gave you the option to prove me wrong. You know, you could always produce some votes on laws that totally shut me up.

I am not speaking about unions here or politics in favour of jobs, what i am speaking of is that all parties involved cared very little about the environment and all negatives when it came to pushing up the industry, The Southern half had it worse than the Northern half here. But yes looking to the future and investing in people and innovative technologies is an issue when your political power comes from empowering strikes and bribing people with clientelism. Now this is oversimplifying it as you can't disconnect the French Elite from Brussels from Wallonia. And you are right that's not a whole lot to go on, but you have to forgive me for not going to start bringing in certain sources as honestly, as i would first have to find some point to start as i find explaining Belgium politically to be not a simple task.

It's true, the left cared more about people having jobs and their rights than the environment. The impact was hidden or deemphasized by the right or let's say people who very likely vote right. (not particularly talking about Belgium here)

That last comment is rather belittling and totally not needed. You are free to believe in a world where if one political ideology would disappear things would just go better, i find that kind of thinking rather extreme and even dangerous because it widens the gap, solves nothing and is a great recruitment drive for extremists, but perhaps you belong to a dark red family. I don't i find that the only way forward that is good for all involved is through a matter of compromise.

Yeah, compromise with the people that constantly block or fight against rights for workers, women, lgbtq+, minorities, while polluting the planet on the grand scale what would we ever do without them. They are the great fearmongers of all time. Children not being allowed to work? well, there goes the country! 40h work week? omg end of days no company, no country could ever thrive on 40h work weeks. Women voting? oh hell no! (1948 in Belgium, fyi) those conservative ideals are just mmm yummi

Anyway think i said pretty much every on this that i wanted

great talk, take care

[JohnBrown1917]

No, you see, the left is actually incompetent because their countries keep getting sanctioned by the US.

Pull yourself up by your bootstraps and just stop being sanctioned or couped by the CIA! Its that easy