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  1. #241
    The Lightbringer Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    I have no problem with casual players being able to obtain the best gear in the game, but at a slower pace than folks completing the highest level content.

    I would suspect that more than half of WoW's players are incapable of completing mythic raids, so gating gear behind it as the only way to get it seems silly.
    Which is pretty much the idea behind relic weapons in FFXIV. They are not the best gear in game. But they are pretty effin strong and have a unique look. The way to get them is a long grind. You don't need to raid savage (highest raid dificulty) to get it.

  2. #242
    I think a large part of this is how people view success without really understanding the steps involved.. I see a lot of people thinking that simply having better gear will gain them access to the playerbase that doesn't struggle in the game. That if they have an ilv close or identical to those players it will get them invited into the groups that quickly and without drama solve problems and overcome content.

    What they fail to realize is they are not at a level of play that will allow them access to that portion of the playerbase. All that increasing the starting ilv does it set a new minimum to enter those "hallowed halls".

    Tossing free gear to people just adds a time gate to new players interested in harder content.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    I understand that. But if you already cleared the hardest fight the game has to offer. What do you need the even stronger gear for? You get an exclusive achievement, exclusive transmog, maybe a pet or a mount.
    This logic would only apply to the very end boss then.

    Besides, better gear for harder content has always been a standard reward in WoW.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    I understand that. But if you already cleared the hardest fight the game has to offer. What do you need the even stronger gear for? You get an exclusive achievement, exclusive transmog, maybe a pet or a mount.
    I wonder what the game would look like if Mythic dropped the same gear as Heroic, but dropped mounts or literally just transmog gear (with no stats)? It would certainly make mythic challenging since you couldn't outgear it until the next tier. And it would mean PVPers wouldn't feel like they need to run Mythic early on in the expansion (and vice versa).

    I've been against LFR for a while, but it's not really the idea of LFR that's a problem for me - it's that adding more tiers creates too much disparity between raid tiers - which could be solved by no Mythic gear too. I don't raid mythic, so I don't have a horse in this race, but if this system was in place on top of the gearing changes in 9.1, that would mean casuals basically get the best gear each tier, albeit later than others.
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  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    I see a lot of people thinking that simply having better gear will gain them access to the playerbase that doesn't struggle in the game. That if they have an ilv close or identical to those players it will get them invited into the groups that quickly and without drama solve problems and overcome content.
    This is EXACTLY what people said in WOD. They were complaining that they couldn't get into content because of ilvl. Then Blizzard added Titanforging so everyone could get higher ilvl and what happened next?... RIO happened! People could still not get into content because at the end of the day ilvl doesn't matter if the player is bad. We clearly saw that the same players were still not able to join groups no matter how much welfare gear they got.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    This logic would only apply to the very end boss then.

    Besides, better gear for harder content has always been a standard reward in WoW.
    Not always - recall in the first tier of Wrath you had "hard mode" boss fights that were just variations on the same fight, which rewarded the same gear but also achievements (and an exclusive mount). This is obv not the standard, as this was immediately removed and never done again after Ulduar (not to my knowledge at least). I'm not sure why it was removed.
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  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    I think a large part of this is how people view success without really understanding the steps involved.. I see a lot of people thinking that simply having better gear will gain them access to the playerbase that doesn't struggle in the game. That if they have an ilv close or identical to those players it will get them invited into the groups that quickly and without drama solve problems and overcome content.

    What they fail to realize is they are not at a level of play that will allow them access to that portion of the playerbase. All that increasing the starting ilv does it set a new minimum to enter those "hallowed halls".

    Tossing free gear to people just adds a time gate to new players interested in harder content.
    I've played with some pretty mediocre players and can tell you that without catch up badge of justice gear we would never have progressed through T5. And our catch up wasn't due to missing time played, it was just required to catch up to better guilds.

    I'm sure I'll be flamed for being an old man, but I can remember once upon a time when we played games because they were fun to play. We didn't ask game developers to bribe us with phat loots to play thier games.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    This is EXACTLY what people said in WOD. They were complaining that they couldn't get into content because of ilvl. Then Blizzard added Titanforging so everyone could get higher ilvl and what happened next?... RIO happened! People could still not get into content because at the end of the day ilvl doesn't matter if the player is bad. We clearly saw that the same players were still not able to join groups no matter how much welfare gear they got.
    If wasn't about getting into content for most. It was about being able to complete the content. Players who aren't as good as you actually need better gear than you had to complete the same content.

    As far as RIO, that makes a lot more sense as a gating /measurement tool for grouping than "what gear do you have", so I take your argument as a good thing.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
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  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    I've played with some pretty mediocre players and can tell you that without catch up badge of justice gear we would never have progressed through T5. And our catch up wasn't due to missing time played, it was just required to catch up to better guilds.

    I'm sure I'll be flamed for being an old man, but I can remember once upon a time when we played games because they were fun to play. We didn't ask game developers to bribe us with phat loots to play thier games.

    - - - Updated - - -



    If wasn't about getting into content for most. It was about being able to complete the content. Players who aren't as good as you actually need better gear than you had to complete the same content.

    As far as RIO, that makes a lot more sense as a gating /measurement tool for grouping than "what gear do you have", so I take your argument as a good thing.
    I do wish games were less focused on rewards...well maybe not cosmetic rewards I do love my transmog but I think wow is to reliant on power rewards. Would torghast for example even be minded if it just had cosmetics rather then the devs hamfisting it into the progression system?

  9. #249
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    Maybe blizz should offer a reduced rate 'casual player' subscription. For those who have no desire/ability to do rated/organized content, the price should be 50% lower than those that do the content. The reduced rate player could only que for random bg's, lfr wings, and normal and heroic only dungeons. This solves both problems-the discounted rate should make the more casual player stop complaining about the gear differential, while the non-casual player who pays the normal rate can maintain his/her exclusive club of better geared folks. Of course, to slum with the casual players, they'd have to cap ilvl for randoms to the casual player cap.
    Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelled of elderberries.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    So, if the only reason people do harder content is to get meaningless gear, it sounds like harder content really isn't serving any purpose. So let's just not include it. Gear disparity solved.

    You know, I have always found it odd that being a skilled player rewards you with the absolute LAST thing that a skilled player actually needs... which is better gear. While at the same time, unskilled players actually do need it and rarely get it.

    I’m not kidding myself. It’s never going to change because the design has been dominant for too many years in too many games. You can’t unring the bell I guess. I just consider the situation to be one of those Bizarro-World things that we see every day and accept.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Wingspan View Post
    You know, I have always found it odd that being a skilled player rewards you with the absolute LAST thing that a skilled player actually needs... which is better gear. While at the same time, unskilled players actually do need it and rarely get it.

    I’m not kidding myself. It’s never going to change because the design has been dominant for too many years in too many games. You can’t unring the bell I guess. I just consider the situation to be one of those Bizarro-World things that we see every day and accept.
    I think it comes down to how games work in general. While you could argue that what your saying makes sense and in some way it does. It would allow good players to utterly demolish a game in a week.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Addiena View Post
    The fact you used emojis in your argument pretty much tells me everything I needed to know about you.

    Emojis are obnoxious and need to go die in a fire already.
    Wtf you talking about? Emojis is a necessary evil in the online world to convey and reflect an emotional state along with the text.
    See? It works just brilliantly

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    I think it comes down to how games work in general. While you could argue that what your saying makes sense and in some way it does. It would allow good players to utterly demolish a game in a week.

    That is not so different than we have now... and the game could be tweaked to make it much tougher to do.

    Classic pretty much was demolished by better players at record speed. And there have been raids in the past in retail that were crushed pretty quickly. Ultimately the better players cut a swath through the content a lot quicker... HOW quick is a matter of tuning more than anything else.

    Tuning is the only way to prevent it and, as it happens, tuning would be a lot easier for them if they did not have to account for large variations in gear power.

    Like I said, it’s never going to change because people’s minds are set on the system... but the system has a glaring flaw that creates a ton of its own problems.
    Last edited by Wingspan; 2021-05-10 at 02:59 PM.

  14. #254
    Herald of the Titans Daffan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post


    As opposed to the current system, which is working SWIMMINGLY at keeping people subbed, right?
    What is your alternative? If they remove the artificial grinds and gating, it will be even worse for them (Blizzard).

    If they give away even more free stuff (MORE than now ezmode) it also gets worse for Blizzard retention. Players already majority realize that gear means nothing, casuals are farming gear for zero purpose, more free gear will enlighten the remaining people to realize how stupid the whole thing is.
    Content drought is a combination of catchup mechanics and no new content.
    Classic+ Retune/New Boss Abilities >>> #nochanges crowd

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Wingspan View Post
    You know, I have always found it odd that being a skilled player rewards you with the absolute LAST thing that a skilled player actually needs... which is better gear. While at the same time, unskilled players actually do need it and rarely get it.
    This is so stupid xd check wowprogress and see the latest Mythic Denathrius kills, what helped those guilds to kill him? you guessed right, the best gear, unless you stupidly think that every guild out there can kill mythic Denathrius with 220 ilvl or so which was the average ilvl that Limit had.

    Casuals needed better progression cause they were hitting the 200 ilvl wall super fast, but players that do mythic also need the best gear to actually complete the content cause they arent Limit/Echo (some of them dont even finish it), so next time you plan to say something this stupid, just dont, the amount of people voicing their missinformed opinion in this forum is insane and it isnt even considered trolling, unreal.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    This is so stupid xd check wowprogress and see the latest Mythic Denathrius kills, what helped those guilds to kill him? you guessed right, the best gear, unless you stupidly think that every guild out there can kill mythic Denathrius with 220 ilvl or so which was the average ilvl that Limit had.

    Casuals needed better progression cause they were hitting the 200 ilvl wall super fast, but players that do mythic also need the best gear to actually complete the content cause they arent Limit/Echo (some of them dont even finish it), so next time you plan to say something this stupid, just dont, the amount of people voicing their missinformed opinion in this forum is insane and it isnt even considered trolling, unreal.
    Everyone deserves to have a long term gear progression in a RPG. The quality of the gear isn't really what's important as long as there isn't too big of a power gap between players.

    The covenant gear situation that casuals ran in to in 9.0 was like if mythic raids suddenly stopped awarding any gear and your gear progression ended after your first couple of resets of heroic. Nothing to work towards, nothing to make your power grow for months.

    Then in 9.1 you learn that mythic raids will drop gear again. Would you return? Could you trust the developers to not pull the same stunt again?

    Ironically we complain a lot about "systems" but this is an area where WoW could use some. We should know what to expect, that every patch had a base reward structure to fall back on for the hardest of hardcores and the most casual of the casuals.

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    Everyone deserves to have a long term gear progression in a RPG.
    I agree, WQ gear, covenant gear etc starts out too high so you reach the limit of what's reasonable for that content to reward too quickly.
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  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    I agree, WQ gear, covenant gear etc starts out too high so you reach the limit of what's reasonable for that content to reward too quickly.
    I have made this point many times - the only "problem" is that Cov gear was too easy to get, and FAR too easy to upgrade. Its more than powerful enough, and is actually the most powerful gear obtainable by solo play in the first tier of any expansion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
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    you have to be a moron to of said .

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    I have made this point many times - the only "problem" is that Cov gear was too easy to get, and FAR too easy to upgrade. Its more than powerful enough, and is actually the most powerful gear obtainable by solo play in the first tier of any expansion.
    Yeah. It's a decent progression system, it just needs to start like 20-30 ilevel lower so there's more time for growth/progression. Alternatively just keep the current ilevels and make them take longer to progress through. The gap from capped "solo content" gear to heroic/mythic gear is fine. I don't think it's fine how quickly it reaches normal raid ilevel, essentially removing the player power incentive for the entry level raid difficulty.
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  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    You're defending an unfair class system in the game. It suggests you fear that a casual player or supposed bad player like me actually giving you a fair fight.
    If you were a skilled player you wouldn't be 200ilevel

    getting 1400 in arena isn't hard, it's even easier with RBGs, you're just lazy/bad and are pretending it has to do with a lack of ways for you to get gear

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