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  1. #381
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    It's a rebuttal to the argument of "it's always been this way, why is it a problem now?" It very well could have been a problem then, too.
    I think it was to be honest. I get that bringing up the ancient past in video game terms is subjective but I can't see any catch up system barring the badge system pre sunwell as being effective.

  2. #382
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    But when I went ultra casual (or finish my goals), gear become totally pointless (and pushing it waste of time) when it is enough to rolfstomp open content. After that without progression goals in PVE/PVP only stuff that matters are collectibles since they are not going away.
    In past expansions, I would cap out my gear in 3-4 weeks as a non-raider, and then farm random BGs to get the conquest set as a long term goal. I enjoyed the journey.

    In Shadowlands, they removed gear scaling from random BGs. Now raiders can come in and 3 shot players like me, and even if I endured that, the conquest set was only 3 ilvls higher. Also note, that I've spent time doing rated BGs. However, when it takes about 20 minutes to form a team for every 15 minutes in the BG, that gets really tedious over the long term.

    Shadowlands destroyed my playstyle. If they don't put some sort of gear scaling back in random BGs or some sort of ilvl cap in them, I won't be returning to the game.

  3. #383
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    I think it was to be honest. I get that bringing up the ancient past in video game terms is subjective but I can't see any catch up system barring the badge system pre sunwell as being effective.
    I think the deep issue is one Blizzard didn't want to address, since addressing it would have required radical action contrary to Blizzard's culture.

    The problem is that if you have good players, and not so good players, participating in the same MMO, the MMO will inevitably (if accurately) tell the not-so-good players they aren't so good. Simply having content for both doesn't fix that. And I contend this will drive away the not-so-good players.

    So, Blizzard is faced with a dilemma. Cater to the good players and drive away the others, or design the game to cater ONLY to the not-so-good players. The latter would mean identifying the slice of ability/skill/motivation that has the most customers, and focusing only on those. I can understand why Blizzard would not have wanted to do this: it would go against something central in Blizzard's corporate DNA. But it could be that an unchanging dogma they have has doomed the game to inexorable decline as most of the people playing it have eventually been driven away. And if the same dogma carries over to other Blizzard games, it could help explain why they all seem to have lost steam.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Sooner or later everyone sits down to a banquet of consequences." -- Robert Louis Stevenson
    If you didn't get your COVID shot it's probably too late now, you fool.

  4. #384
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    I think the deep issue is one Blizzard didn't want to address, since addressing it would have required radical action contrary to Blizzard's culture.

    The problem is that if you have good players, and not so good players, participating in the same MMO, the MMO will inevitably (if accurately) tell the not-so-good players they aren't so good. Simply having content for both doesn't fix that. And I contend this will drive away the not-so-good players.

    So, Blizzard is faced with a dilemma. Cater to the good players and drive away the others, or design the game to cater ONLY to the not-so-good players. The latter would mean identifying the slice of ability/skill/motivation that has the most customers, and focusing only on those. I can understand why Blizzard would not have wanted to do this: it would go against something central in Blizzard's corporate DNA. But it could be that an unchanging dogma they have has doomed the game to inexorable decline as most of the people playing it have eventually been driven away. And if the same dogma carries over to other Blizzard games, it could help explain why they all seem to have lost steam.
    I would propose the opposing view point.. why is it non raid realms are barren waste lands without any players barring very extreme niches like select rp realms?

    People care more about end game even if they don't participate in it then they do average level content. Without a solid mythic culture a realm dies. It doesn't matter how many average or below average players a realm has in time they will follow the high end.

  5. #385
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Then why are some "casuals" still complaining that its not enough?
    I'd be interested to see your evidence that any casual in this thread has complained that the maw-touched gear is "not enough". The very little bit that it's actually been addressed has all been positive. Comments on Soul's video about the gear has been overwhelmingly positive.

    Really, I think you people just keep making up these "predictions" out of thin air so you can claim you were somehow right all along

    Meanwhile, casuals are going to have a nice progression system in 9.1 and you'll all still be sour.
    Shut your goddamn mouth, Gene!

  6. #386
    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    I'd be interested to see your evidence that any casual in this thread has complained that the maw-touched gear is "not enough". The very little bit that it's actually been addressed has all been positive. Comments on Soul's video about the gear has been overwhelmingly positive.

    Really, I think you people just keep making up these "predictions" out of thin air so you can claim you were somehow right all along

    Meanwhile, casuals are going to have a nice progression system in 9.1 and you'll all still be sour.
    Quote Originally Posted by kaintk View Post
    the game should invalidate all the stuff in my book, same ilvl should be obtainable even in world event things, raid and mm+ should only be about achivement doing them, why any normal player that play hundreds of hours in the game vs a mythic raider who do the same number of hours and both pay the same subs should have less stuff ?

    its stupid and old thinking, its why people are quitting the game, they see that unless you are PL with luck with the 10% of the guild able to do mythic raid , you will never see your character going up in progression
    Found this in just page 4 of this thread, cba to search other threads or continue searching more in this thread, but yes, people that want to be equal to mythic raiders do exist (hence this system isnt enough for them), and like i said blizz should continue ignoring them forever so they can continue coming up with middle ground systems like this 1.

  7. #387
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    Found this in just page 4 of this thread, cba to search other threads or continue searching more in this thread, but yes, people that want to be equal to mythic raiders do exist (hence this system isnt enough for them), and like i said blizz should continue ignoring them forever so they can continue coming up with middle ground systems like this 1.
    Hmm, well how do you like that.

    I agree, ideas like that should just be ignored as the people who want that would be an extreme minority and, I'm certain, not even slightly reflective of what Blizzard would ever even think of doing.

    I would lump these people in with the raiders that think anything short of Normal raiding shouldn't award gear at all. A tiny minority of idiots
    Shut your goddamn mouth, Gene!

  8. #388
    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    Except me, right? I dont do LFG. Outside of world stuff i dont touch it. I qualify, right?



    or (replying to frozenbro pointing out said gear upgrading system in this thread only a page ago)



    There you go. I dont want this. Hang on though, lets scroll back through my posts...

    Apr 27th:


    Apr 9th:


    Im pretty consistent. An ilvl boosting system doesnt interest me. I dont care if it goes all the way to heroic gear. In fact, id suggest its just a way to pad my play time out for some pointless grind that gives me nothing more than the possibility to solo higher level world mobs. Whoopdeedoo. It doesnt remotely interest me. But couple it to a system that incentivises not only me, but also higher level players to carry me through content (and alleviate the pressure on me to perform flawlessly), in content i might have felt incredibly pressured to perform otherwise, and now its interesting. Cant we just be a little more... inclusive and positive about the game, perhaps?
    Context Is important. I was replying to someone suggesting people are getting bent out of shape regarding this change. I have not seen any "elitists" say it is a bad thing. Context.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2021-05-12 at 07:20 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  9. #389
    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    Hmm, well how do you like that.

    I agree, ideas like that should just be ignored as the people who want that would be an extreme minority and, I'm certain, not even slightly reflective of what Blizzard would ever even think of doing.

    I would lump these people in with the raiders that think anything short of Normal raiding shouldn't award gear at all. A tiny minority of idiots
    Pretty much, its just a shame that, once again, blizz had to wait for a patch to adress this issue so we can once again like every expansion say "yeah this expansion was great... on its final patch after blizz adressed all the flaws".

  10. #390
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Wrong and Wrong. I said first tier, and you could not get bis through heroics in wrath, you could get a few great pieces, but they were not bis, it wasnt complete sets, and it again, wasnt first tier.
    BfA
    You could get WQ gear to scale to normal and then against overwhelming odds and the warfront

  11. #391
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    There's a good reason 90+% of the people who have ever played WoW no longer play WoW.
    Yes - the game is 17 years old - very few people pay $15 a month for 17 years to play one single game. You understand that this would be typical of any game that has ever been released, right?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    BfA
    You could get WQ gear to scale to normal and then against overwhelming odds and the warfront
    No, you couldn't. Not through solo play during the first patch. Why do people keep repeating this lie? It wasn't that long ago ....
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  12. #392
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Yes - the game is 17 years old - very few people pay $15 a month for 17 years to play one single game. You understand that this would be typical of any game that has ever been released, right?

    - - - Updated - - -



    No, you couldn't. Not through solo play during the first patch. Why do people keep repeating this lie? It wasn't that long ago ....
    It’s not a lie lol my alts were all geared through world content like that

    What ilvl were the WQ rewards in BfA according to your memory??

  13. #393
    It is not about a fair gearing system.

    Right now the gearing system is not balanced. Ten item level jumps should NOT yield such great power compared to previous expansions. And the first patch is not even out yet lol.

    I rest my case.

  14. #394
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    It is not about a fair gearing system.

    Right now the gearing system is not balanced. Ten item level jumps should NOT yield such great power compared to previous expansions. And the first patch is not even out yet lol.

    I rest my case.
    As proven by various people through both in game data, sims, and even ion himself, you are entirely wrong. So don't rest your case too quickly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  15. #395
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    As proven by various people through both in game data, sims, and even ion himself, you are entirely wrong. So don't rest your case too quickly.
    Why would you accept what dear leader says at face value? When has he been honest and candid about the current game?

    WotLK private servers exist. Even vanilla exists.

    The huge jump in ilevel before the first patch release is unprecedented. And that is with a level squish and an item squish (again). The data is out there.

  16. #396
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    Why would you accept what dear leader says at face value? When has he been honest and candid about the current game?

    WotLK private servers exist. Even vanilla exists.

    The huge jump in ilevel before the first patch release is unprecedented. And that is with a level squish and an item squish (again). The data is out there.
    And it was already proven with sims and data that the jump is indeed 1% per ilvl like Ion said, you and many others saying "the jump in power is insane" are just feelycrafting, and you know what feelycraft is? a meme.

  17. #397
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    Why would you accept what dear leader says at face value? When has he been honest and candid about the current game?

    WotLK private servers exist. Even vanilla exists.

    The huge jump in ilevel before the first patch release is unprecedented. And that is with a level squish and an item squish (again). The data is out there.
    No, I wouldn't. That's why I said that his statement has been backed up by countless people simming their toons in identical gear, 20 ilvls apart, as well as various in game / log data.

    The problem is a lot of ppl at say 200ilvl get outperformed by someone @220 by quite a large amount, and ignorantly put it ALL down to gear. The reality in many cases is that the person has 220 gear because they consistently play at a much higher level than the 200 ilvl person. There are exceptions to every rule, obviously, but this is the reality.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2021-05-13 at 05:22 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  18. #398
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    It is not about a fair gearing system.Right now the gearing system is not balanced. Ten item level jumps should NOT yield such great power compared to previous expansions. And the first patch is not even out yet lol. I rest my case.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...er_creep_math/

    That post is the first result for look for the math. I'm sure there are others but that one equates a 11.5% difference in sims for 12 item levels. Skill plays a larger role in the "power gap" then item level does. The gearing system is actually very well balanced. The problem is the acquisition rate on the low end since you can out gear LFR. But Blizzard likely did that in a way to encourage more people into M+ since Covenant and World Quests rewards are Mythic +5/6 for end of dungeon.

    That experiment seems to have been a failure though give the push back against the gearing process.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  19. #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    People care more about end game even if they don't participate in it then they do average level content. Without a solid mythic culture a realm dies. It doesn't matter how many average or below average players a realm has in time they will follow the high end.
    In my experience, the wanna-be elites follow the real high end. The other players (that might be called casual) just drift away from the game if there's no real, vibrant life on the server. The loss of meaningful server communities accelerated this.

    - - - Updated - - -

    LFR hasn't been a step in the gearing process since forever, except if your teir set bonus was very good and it wouldn't drop elsewhere. It used to go heroic 5-mans -> Normal raids -> heroic raids (and then -> mythic). Nowadays it's all over the damned place, which is part of the problem.

  20. #400
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    In my experience, the wanna-be elites follow the real high end. The other players (that might be called casual) just drift away from the game if there's no real, vibrant life on the server. The loss of meaningful server communities accelerated this.

    - - - Updated - - -

    LFR hasn't been a step in the gearing process since forever, except if your teir set bonus was very good and it wouldn't drop elsewhere. It used to go heroic 5-mans -> Normal raids -> heroic raids (and then -> mythic). Nowadays it's all over the damned place, which is part of the problem.
    It's only all over the damn place because people choose to do so, then complain. There is literally nothing in game stopping the old level > normal dungeons > heroic dungeons > normal raids > heroic raids > mythic.

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