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  1. #141
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Not at all. .
    Yes very much at all because that's exciting whats been happening. Here's a short list of complaints:

    Badge forming forced because of gear on vendor (got rid of that)
    lfr forced because tier pieces and set bonuses in raids (got rid of that from lfr and then tier all together)
    Legion ap grind because weapon progression was very powerful (barely exists in sl)
    m+ gives too much gear (gutted that)
    PVP gear too good required farming (taken care off next patch)

    I'm missing some I'm sure but theirs been a constant complaint about mandatory participation in non raid content from hardcore players and the devs are incredible sensitive to it for some bizarre fucking reason. If the game is casual friendly it will shrink the gear disparity significantly which means that better gear (or power advancement which is what gear is)will be offered to causal players in other content, typically non group or non organized content. Evidently given the history of this game hardcore players can't help themselves so they'll be back crying about being forced. You can't design around this problem nor should you because its something that is best solved by therapy. The hardcores need mental healthcare, not a hand held by the developer.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2021-05-09 at 08:25 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    Hardcore players dont need to do that content and they didnt use any of the gear casuals use now, if you are clueless about the game, dont lie, while you were waiting for your covenant and world quest gear to reach 200, hardcore players were doing +14 in sub 200 ilvl, missinformed opinion = trolling
    Very, very slowly read: If it takes longer to reach the item level needed to enter hardcore content, that effects hardcore players too.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    Name one expansion where you could get normal raid level gear in the first patch without doing group content? It has never been better.
    Exactly. But the fact that you can get 197 ilvl gear without doing anything is the reason why casuals don't have any meaningful progression. So covenant gear is basically the reason why they are complaining. They just cant see it and instead they twist it into an excuse for why they should get mythic raiding gear.

  4. #144
    They didn't "listen to the feedback", this was the plan all along.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Yes, it is bad for a game when that game can’t retail players. I can’t believe I need to explain this.

    Every other major game similar to wow allows the average player to target final sets of gear in such a way that they will have valid and valuable things to do throughout the patch cycle.

    I’m simply arguing to return to something closer to how wow used to be. You know, when it was successful and wasn’t desperately trying to retain players who all hail two months after the expansion drops?

    Remember when wow used to reward reputations and trade skills with very good gear? Now, it’s shit. Remember when people could run heroic dungeons and get tokens to buy gear? Gone. Remember when you could get great pvp gear doing casual pvp? Not anymore.

    Wow tool away progression for casual players to strengthen progression for hardcore players, and that was an incredibly dumb design decision that continues to cause serious problems for the game.
    When could you get this gear without doing group content in the first patch? Right now you can get this gear without doing group content. It has never been easier for casuals to gear up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    You're defending an unfair class system in the game. It suggests you fear that a casual player or supposed bad player like me actually giving you a fair fight.
    It isn't an unfair class sytem. Higher content has higher rewards. That is fair to everyone who plays the game because everyone is capable of trying to do that higher content. I don't fear anyone giving me a fair fight. I don't even fear higher geared players in random battle grounds because I suck at PvP regardless of gear. It is why I prefer the brawls and epic battlegrounds that have less of a focus on direct pvp contact.

    You keep projecting your fears, and emotions, on others in an effort to own them or whatever. The progression system is fine in the game. You can easily get gear that rewards higher then LFR and is equal to a normal raid with out stepping foot in that normal raid. That causal gear is equal to a Mythic +5/6 so you are already geared enough to start higher mythics.

    It comes down to skill. I already have told you I have no problem with PvP having a system where people are scaled. Equal gear. Whatever. There are issues inherent to any system though. You equate discussing the merits and problems of a design with fear. Weird huh?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    He is defending a completely fair system with progression balance between difficulty of content and gear. This has always been in WoW, but it was just blurred by titanforging in Legion/BFA.
    You mean like in vanilla where some best in slot are world drops and quest reward anyone can get? Or like TBC where a lot of bis gear was reputation or profession gear? Or like WoTLK where amazing gear could be obtained with points?

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Yes, it is bad for a game when that game can’t retail players. I can’t believe I need to explain this.
    Then why does every game in existence not have the same amount of players? If people that try wow no longer like it then they should quit. Things change. People change.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Very, very slowly read: If it takes longer to reach the item level needed to enter hardcore content, that effects hardcore players too.
    It wouldnt matter cause the progression for casual players doesnt affect hardcore players, you as a casual engage in content hardcores dont touch, hardcore players dont do heroic dungeons, or world quests, or care about covenant gear, or normal raiding, they go straight to mythic + and rated pvp, so yes blizz could make progression for casuals slower so they have more time playing the game before reaching their cap and hardcores wouldnt care, cause again hardcore players dont touch casual content right now.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    When could you get this gear without doing group content in the first patch? Right now you can get this gear without doing group content. It has never been easier for casuals to gear up.
    Most casual methods of getting gear are trivialized within a week or two or hitting max level. That isn’t fun.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I didn't read this. Whered you hear this? if its true I can't wait to hear people crying about forced content.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The achievement requirement is obnoxious. Its one to thing to have thr world quests offer such paltry gains in the first place but to then also lock it behind ksm is fucking insulting.
    Yea, its... I don't know. If it was at least account wide. But with my main i dont need those low-baller items, while my alts i want to roll ...also don't, because the stuff THEY get is so much lower.
    If you are offended by something i said, im probably at least 45% sorry about it and there is a 3% Chance it was not on purpose!

    Victim to Blizzard-Marketing since 2004

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    It wouldnt matter cause the progression for casual players doesnt affect hardcore players, you as a casual engage in content hardcores dont touch, hardcore players dont do heroic dungeons, or world quests, or care about covenant gear, or normal raiding, they go straight to mythic + and rated pvp, so yes blizz could make progression for casuals slower so they have more time playing the game before reaching their cap and hardcores wouldnt care, cause again hardcore players dont touch casual content right now.
    They’re able to go straight to that content because the ladder is so shallow at the bottom.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Yes very much at all because that's exciting whats been happening. Here's a short list of complaints:

    Badge forming forced because of gear on vendor (got rid of that)
    lfr forced because tier pieces and set bonuses in raids (got rid of that from lfr and then tier all together)
    Legion ap grind because weapon progression was very powerful (barely exists in sl)
    m+ gives too much gear (gutted that)
    PVP gear too good required farming (taken care off next patch)

    I'm missing some I'm sure but theirs been a constant complaint about mandatory participation in non raid content from hardcore players and the devs are incredible sensitive to it for some bizarre fucking reason.
    You're absolutely out of touch with what going on in the game.

    No hardcore player like tiers sets being removed. And no hardcore player were doing LFR for tier sets. You're absolutely wrong. You're blaming the wrong people. Tier sets were removed because M+ only players complained that they had to raid. But that's not "hardcore" players as a group.

    Also the gear you can get from badge farming is most often completely redundant for hardcore players with the exception of benthic gear which was because of the absurd raid bonuses. So again, you're wrong. Casual can definitely get a badge vendor without it having any impact on hardcore players.

    Hardcore players didn't want less gear in M+. We simply wanted titanforging gone because of the RNG element. But the fact that Blizzard has reduce ilvl of M+ has nothing to do with hardcore players. Blizzard have reduced the base ilvl of M+ to much less than what the base ilvl was (without TF) for m+ in BFA and nobody was asking for that. That's ALL Blizzards fault.

    PVP gear is not a "hardcore" problem. It's a problem that impacts the entire game. Gearing in general has just been much better through PVP this tier and that goes for everyone.

    Sorry but you have absolutely not idea what you are talking about. You're misplacing your frustration at Hardcore players when Blizzard are the true villain here. Hardcore players didn't ask for 80% of the changes that were made in Shadowlands. It's all Blizzards invention.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2021-05-09 at 08:34 PM.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Then why does every game in existence not have the same amount of players? If people that try wow no longer like it then they should quit. Things change. People change.
    Wow is having serious retention issues. FF14 is growing, and according to some analysts is already exceeding wow retail. Destiny remains intensely popular and flies on the face of everything you are saying.

    Again, if your argument is “I don’t care if the game burns down as long as I can spit on casuals as the building falls”, cool story but not exactly a good argument. Cutting your nose off to spite your face isn’t a good argument.

  15. #155
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    You're absolutely out of touch with what going on in the game.

    No hardcore player like tiers sets being removed. And not hardcore player were doing LFR for tier sets. You're absolutely wrong.

    Also the gear you can get from badge farming is most often completely redundant for hardcore players with the exception of benthic gear which was because of the absurd raid bonuses.

    Hardcore players didn't want less gear in M+. We simply wanted titanforging gone because of the RNG element.

    PVP gear is not a "hardcore" problem. It's a problem that impacts the entire game. Gearing in general has just been much better through PVP this tier and that goes for everyone.

    Sorry but you have absolutely not idea what you are talking about. You're misplacing your frustration at Hardcore players when Blizzard are the true villain here. Hardcore players didn't ask for 80% of the changes that were made in Shadowlands. It's all Blizzards invention.
    Oh Blizzars is absolutely ������ to blame here but they've been acting in response to feedback from hardcores who felt forced to participate in content. They should have been ignored. Franky the game should force them.

    Every tier should have benthic.

    Pvp gear is not a problem. It simple another avenue for progression. It ls not a problem for people who like to pvp and pursue that gear. Hardcores are bitching about forced pvp content.

    Hardcore players were doing lfr for tier sets. Raiding guilds were queuing for lfr for trinket and set bonuses including method. They were literally exploiting the shit out of lfr for tier set bonuses.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2021-05-09 at 08:37 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    The legitimate reason is because sense of completion is important in game design. You seem to think that you can logic and reason your way out of things feeling bad and being not fun. That’s not how game design works. If it isn’t fun, it isn’t fun. If it isn’t fulfilling, it isn’t fulfilling. Period. End of story. There is no amount of blathering on about the logical need for certain item levels that will change any of that.

    A sense of progression followed by a sense of completion is vital to the rpg game loop. You want to deny the average player both of those things because you believe that your degenerate and perverse desire to derive your fun from the lack of fun for other people. And you want to argue that that is somehow good game design.

    This notion that the average player will cap out and have no reason to play the game within a couple of weeks of hitting max level is new. This is not how the game used to be, no matter how much you want to insist it has always been this way.
    But you're making the assumption that everyone should be able to clear any content. Which is not true.
    You just focus on the very top rewards and ignore that there's tons of people who's very progression and sense of competition is doing normal raids, heroic raids, ranked pvp at 1600 rating etc etc. The design is there, you just refuse to see it because you feel entitled to the very best rewards.
    And nothing you've said yet explains how that would be good game design.

    You're also making the assumption everyone in the game only plays for gear, they don't. I'm 226 ilvl and I still find plenty of things todo every single reset. I do partake in quite a few areas of the game though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    And when enough people find no reason to sub to the game what do you think will happen?
    You talk like you're the majority and the norm. I don't think so.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    They’re able to go straight to that content because the ladder is so shallow at the bottom.
    They could make the ladder way better at the bottom and still wouldnt care as long as other modes reward better stuff, and theres no reason for blizz to not make the other modes reward better stuff so casuals have something to chase, the thing is it wont impact hardcore players at all cause they will still go straight into m+ and rated pvp cause even if they buff heroic dungeons, covenant gear and world quest gear, it wont be better than farmable m+ and rated pvp in terms of speed, if hardcore players farmed +14s in sub 200 ilvl, they will do it again and thats fine, thats why the "hardcore players made the game what it is" is such a weak scapegoat.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by SoundOfGuns View Post
    Yea, its... I don't know. If it was at least account wide. But with my main i dont need those low-baller items, while my alts i want to roll ...also don't, because the stuff THEY get is so much lower.
    KSM is account wide....even the actual components are as in you can do a 15 of a different dungeon on each of 10 characters and get KSM. Mind you it's also tiered. There's absolutely no excuse a "casual" cannot get KSM.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    So game now have invalidated even heroic content? Great news.
    Reading comprehension is hard

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Oh Blizzars is absolutely ������ to blame here but they've been acting in response to feedback from hardcores who felt forced to participate in content. They should have been ignored. Franky the game should force them.

    Every tier should have be benthic.
    Why ignore them when they're the ones bringing in the money now? All the time it was "listen to the badsuals who log 10 hours a day but refuse to raid because their sub money is running the game." Well sub money is a smaller portion of running the game now so yeah they'll listen to the people bringing in the money via their events.

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