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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Yes, it is bad for a game when that game can’t retail players. I can’t believe I need to explain this.

    Every other major game similar to wow allows the average player to target final sets of gear in such a way that they will have valid and valuable things to do throughout the patch cycle.

    I’m simply arguing to return to something closer to how wow used to be. You know, when it was successful and wasn’t desperately trying to retain players who all hail two months after the expansion drops?

    Remember when wow used to reward reputations and trade skills with very good gear? Now, it’s shit. Remember when people could run heroic dungeons and get tokens to buy gear? Gone. Remember when you could get great pvp gear doing casual pvp? Not anymore.

    Wow tool away progression for casual players to strengthen progression for hardcore players, and that was an incredibly dumb design decision that continues to cause serious problems for the game.
    When could you get this gear without doing group content in the first patch? Right now you can get this gear without doing group content. It has never been easier for casuals to gear up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  2. #142
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    You're defending an unfair class system in the game. It suggests you fear that a casual player or supposed bad player like me actually giving you a fair fight.
    It isn't an unfair class sytem. Higher content has higher rewards. That is fair to everyone who plays the game because everyone is capable of trying to do that higher content. I don't fear anyone giving me a fair fight. I don't even fear higher geared players in random battle grounds because I suck at PvP regardless of gear. It is why I prefer the brawls and epic battlegrounds that have less of a focus on direct pvp contact.

    You keep projecting your fears, and emotions, on others in an effort to own them or whatever. The progression system is fine in the game. You can easily get gear that rewards higher then LFR and is equal to a normal raid with out stepping foot in that normal raid. That causal gear is equal to a Mythic +5/6 so you are already geared enough to start higher mythics.

    It comes down to skill. I already have told you I have no problem with PvP having a system where people are scaled. Equal gear. Whatever. There are issues inherent to any system though. You equate discussing the merits and problems of a design with fear. Weird huh?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    He is defending a completely fair system with progression balance between difficulty of content and gear. This has always been in WoW, but it was just blurred by titanforging in Legion/BFA.
    You mean like in vanilla where some best in slot are world drops and quest reward anyone can get? Or like TBC where a lot of bis gear was reputation or profession gear? Or like WoTLK where amazing gear could be obtained with points?
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  4. #144
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Yes, it is bad for a game when that game can’t retail players. I can’t believe I need to explain this.
    Then why does every game in existence not have the same amount of players? If people that try wow no longer like it then they should quit. Things change. People change.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Very, very slowly read: If it takes longer to reach the item level needed to enter hardcore content, that effects hardcore players too.
    It wouldnt matter cause the progression for casual players doesnt affect hardcore players, you as a casual engage in content hardcores dont touch, hardcore players dont do heroic dungeons, or world quests, or care about covenant gear, or normal raiding, they go straight to mythic + and rated pvp, so yes blizz could make progression for casuals slower so they have more time playing the game before reaching their cap and hardcores wouldnt care, cause again hardcore players dont touch casual content right now.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    When could you get this gear without doing group content in the first patch? Right now you can get this gear without doing group content. It has never been easier for casuals to gear up.
    Most casual methods of getting gear are trivialized within a week or two or hitting max level. That isn’t fun.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I didn't read this. Whered you hear this? if its true I can't wait to hear people crying about forced content.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The achievement requirement is obnoxious. Its one to thing to have thr world quests offer such paltry gains in the first place but to then also lock it behind ksm is fucking insulting.
    Yea, its... I don't know. If it was at least account wide. But with my main i dont need those low-baller items, while my alts i want to roll ...also don't, because the stuff THEY get is so much lower.
    If you are offended by something i said, im probably at least 45% sorry about it and there is a 3% Chance it was not on purpose!

    Blizzard, getting away with murder since at least 2019.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    It wouldnt matter cause the progression for casual players doesnt affect hardcore players, you as a casual engage in content hardcores dont touch, hardcore players dont do heroic dungeons, or world quests, or care about covenant gear, or normal raiding, they go straight to mythic + and rated pvp, so yes blizz could make progression for casuals slower so they have more time playing the game before reaching their cap and hardcores wouldnt care, cause again hardcore players dont touch casual content right now.
    They’re able to go straight to that content because the ladder is so shallow at the bottom.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Yes very much at all because that's exciting whats been happening. Here's a short list of complaints:

    Badge forming forced because of gear on vendor (got rid of that)
    lfr forced because tier pieces and set bonuses in raids (got rid of that from lfr and then tier all together)
    Legion ap grind because weapon progression was very powerful (barely exists in sl)
    m+ gives too much gear (gutted that)
    PVP gear too good required farming (taken care off next patch)

    I'm missing some I'm sure but theirs been a constant complaint about mandatory participation in non raid content from hardcore players and the devs are incredible sensitive to it for some bizarre fucking reason.
    You're absolutely out of touch with what going on in the game.

    No hardcore player like tiers sets being removed. And no hardcore player were doing LFR for tier sets. You're absolutely wrong. You're blaming the wrong people. Tier sets were removed because M+ only players complained that they had to raid. But that's not "hardcore" players as a group.

    Also the gear you can get from badge farming is most often completely redundant for hardcore players with the exception of benthic gear which was because of the absurd raid bonuses. So again, you're wrong. Casual can definitely get a badge vendor without it having any impact on hardcore players.

    Hardcore players didn't want less gear in M+. We simply wanted titanforging gone because of the RNG element. But the fact that Blizzard has reduce ilvl of M+ has nothing to do with hardcore players. Blizzard have reduced the base ilvl of M+ to much less than what the base ilvl was (without TF) for m+ in BFA and nobody was asking for that. That's ALL Blizzards fault.

    PVP gear is not a "hardcore" problem. It's a problem that impacts the entire game. Gearing in general has just been much better through PVP this tier and that goes for everyone.

    Sorry but you have absolutely not idea what you are talking about. You're misplacing your frustration at Hardcore players when Blizzard are the true villain here. Hardcore players didn't ask for 80% of the changes that were made in Shadowlands. It's all Blizzards invention.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2021-05-09 at 08:34 PM.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Then why does every game in existence not have the same amount of players? If people that try wow no longer like it then they should quit. Things change. People change.
    Wow is having serious retention issues. FF14 is growing, and according to some analysts is already exceeding wow retail. Destiny remains intensely popular and flies on the face of everything you are saying.

    Again, if your argument is “I don’t care if the game burns down as long as I can spit on casuals as the building falls”, cool story but not exactly a good argument. Cutting your nose off to spite your face isn’t a good argument.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  11. #151
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    You're absolutely out of touch with what going on in the game.

    No hardcore player like tiers sets being removed. And not hardcore player were doing LFR for tier sets. You're absolutely wrong.

    Also the gear you can get from badge farming is most often completely redundant for hardcore players with the exception of benthic gear which was because of the absurd raid bonuses.

    Hardcore players didn't want less gear in M+. We simply wanted titanforging gone because of the RNG element.

    PVP gear is not a "hardcore" problem. It's a problem that impacts the entire game. Gearing in general has just been much better through PVP this tier and that goes for everyone.

    Sorry but you have absolutely not idea what you are talking about. You're misplacing your frustration at Hardcore players when Blizzard are the true villain here. Hardcore players didn't ask for 80% of the changes that were made in Shadowlands. It's all Blizzards invention.
    Oh Blizzars is absolutely ������ to blame here but they've been acting in response to feedback from hardcores who felt forced to participate in content. They should have been ignored. Franky the game should force them.

    Every tier should have benthic.

    Pvp gear is not a problem. It simple another avenue for progression. It ls not a problem for people who like to pvp and pursue that gear. Hardcores are bitching about forced pvp content.

    Hardcore players were doing lfr for tier sets. Raiding guilds were queuing for lfr for trinket and set bonuses including method. They were literally exploiting the shit out of lfr for tier set bonuses.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2021-05-09 at 08:37 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    The legitimate reason is because sense of completion is important in game design. You seem to think that you can logic and reason your way out of things feeling bad and being not fun. That’s not how game design works. If it isn’t fun, it isn’t fun. If it isn’t fulfilling, it isn’t fulfilling. Period. End of story. There is no amount of blathering on about the logical need for certain item levels that will change any of that.

    A sense of progression followed by a sense of completion is vital to the rpg game loop. You want to deny the average player both of those things because you believe that your degenerate and perverse desire to derive your fun from the lack of fun for other people. And you want to argue that that is somehow good game design.

    This notion that the average player will cap out and have no reason to play the game within a couple of weeks of hitting max level is new. This is not how the game used to be, no matter how much you want to insist it has always been this way.
    But you're making the assumption that everyone should be able to clear any content. Which is not true.
    You just focus on the very top rewards and ignore that there's tons of people who's very progression and sense of competition is doing normal raids, heroic raids, ranked pvp at 1600 rating etc etc. The design is there, you just refuse to see it because you feel entitled to the very best rewards.
    And nothing you've said yet explains how that would be good game design.

    You're also making the assumption everyone in the game only plays for gear, they don't. I'm 226 ilvl and I still find plenty of things todo every single reset. I do partake in quite a few areas of the game though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    And when enough people find no reason to sub to the game what do you think will happen?
    You talk like you're the majority and the norm. I don't think so.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    They’re able to go straight to that content because the ladder is so shallow at the bottom.
    They could make the ladder way better at the bottom and still wouldnt care as long as other modes reward better stuff, and theres no reason for blizz to not make the other modes reward better stuff so casuals have something to chase, the thing is it wont impact hardcore players at all cause they will still go straight into m+ and rated pvp cause even if they buff heroic dungeons, covenant gear and world quest gear, it wont be better than farmable m+ and rated pvp in terms of speed, if hardcore players farmed +14s in sub 200 ilvl, they will do it again and thats fine, thats why the "hardcore players made the game what it is" is such a weak scapegoat.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by SoundOfGuns View Post
    Yea, its... I don't know. If it was at least account wide. But with my main i dont need those low-baller items, while my alts i want to roll ...also don't, because the stuff THEY get is so much lower.
    KSM is account wide....even the actual components are as in you can do a 15 of a different dungeon on each of 10 characters and get KSM. Mind you it's also tiered. There's absolutely no excuse a "casual" cannot get KSM.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    So game now have invalidated even heroic content? Great news.
    Reading comprehension is hard

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Oh Blizzars is absolutely ������ to blame here but they've been acting in response to feedback from hardcores who felt forced to participate in content. They should have been ignored. Franky the game should force them.

    Every tier should have be benthic.
    Why ignore them when they're the ones bringing in the money now? All the time it was "listen to the badsuals who log 10 hours a day but refuse to raid because their sub money is running the game." Well sub money is a smaller portion of running the game now so yeah they'll listen to the people bringing in the money via their events.

  17. #157
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Wow is having serious retention issues. FF14 is growing, and according to some analysts is already exceeding wow retail. Destiny remains intensely popular and flies on the face of everything you are saying. Again, if your argument is “I don’t care if the game burns down as long as I can spit on casuals as the building falls”, cool story but not exactly a good argument. Cutting your nose off to spite your face isn’t a good argument.
    At no point have I said that is my argument. Why do you keep inventing things just in order to vilify? Should a game change design when need? Yep. As I've said. Does every change need to happen just because some forum warrior says it will save the game and keep casuals? Nope. Other games have grown and others games have died. The same will happen to wow even with the best of design.

    You've been on these forums long enough to see all the wow killers of past and people making the same arguments you have about the game needs to change or it will die. And look WoW is still around. It doesn't need the same level of players in order to still be around. If another game gets it better then good for that game. Blizzard can adapt similar principles or design the game for those they want. There is nothing wrong with that. Stop implying it is "burn the game to own the casuals" or "give casuals everything they want". That is poor game design any way you cut it.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by tomten View Post
    But you're making the assumption that everyone should be able to clear any content. Which is not true.
    You just focus on the very top rewards and ignore that there's tons of people who's very progression and sense of competition is doing normal raids, heroic raids, ranked pvp at 1600 rating etc etc. The design is there, you just refuse to see it because you feel entitled to the very best rewards.
    And nothing you've said yet explains how that would be good game design.

    You're also making the assumption everyone in the game only plays for gear, they don't. I'm 226 ilvl and I still find plenty of things todo every single reset. I do partake in quite a few areas of the game though.



    You talk like you're the majority and the norm. I don't think so.
    This isn’t as complicated as you are making it out to be.

    Is the game better for casuals if they can target bis or close to bis gear? Yes.

    Is the game worse for hardcore players if that’s the case? No.

    So what exactly is the argument here? That you want the game to be worse for other people for... reasons,

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    At no point have I said that is my argument. Why do you keep inventing things just in order to vilify? Should a game change design when need? Yep. As I've said. Does every change need to happen just because some forum warrior says it will save the game and keep casuals? Nope. Other games have grown and others games have died. The same will happen to wow even with the best of design.

    You've been on these forums long enough to see all the wow killers of past and people making the same arguments you have about the game needs to change or it will die. And look WoW is still around. It doesn't need the same level of players in order to still be around. If another game gets it better then good for that game. Blizzard can adapt similar principles or design the game for those they want. There is nothing wrong with that. Stop implying it is "burn the game to own the casuals" or "give casuals everything they want". That is poor game design any way you cut it.
    Wow has been declining for a decade. The question isn’t what is going to kill or end wow. That’s silly. Ultima Online is still on. Everquest is still on The question is if wow is going to decline to the point where they stop putting as many resources into it, and it’s really clear that they’ve already started to do that. This expansion was exceptionally small, and the delay to 9.1 is insane.

    Where are the players mainly going? FF14, because it is the game most like wow on the market. So it’s valid to compare the designs of these games.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    This isn’t as complicated as you are making it out to be.

    Is the game better for casuals if they can target bis or close to bis gear? Yes.

    Is the game worse for hardcore players if that’s the case? No.

    So what exactly is the argument here? That you want the game to be worse for other people for... reasons,
    The argument here is that you're wrong?
    The correct answer from both your question is. No. Yes.
    I don't feel like your entitlement should diminish the work me and others have put in. I would feel worse. It would also invalidate several game modes, why do normal/heroic raiding or m+ when you can "target gear via world quests".

    I agree, its not complicated so I fail to see how you can be this dense
    The real irony here is that they've tried your way and it failed, so they changed it and thank fuck for that

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Very, very slowly read: If it takes longer to reach the item level needed to enter hardcore content, that effects hardcore players too.
    I don’t think you understand how it actually works

    Look at launch
    Players in 150 grinding WQ and dungeons to get more gear while the hardcore were walking in and some cleared mythic 0

    So the requirement for hardcore content was met by both

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