9.1 seems to be addressing the casual gearing concerns

[arkanon]

I don't get it. Isn't this basically just the current renown gear upgrade system but extended into the next patch?

If you're that worried about casuals catching up with your gear after they're doing 17 weeks of quests and farming, then I think their gear is the least of your problems.

Genuinely havnt seen or heard a single person say they are against it...

[Clozer]

"he" who? Who are you talking about? Are you suggesting this discussion is only about one person and their personal requirements?

You actually have to do dungeons in order to finish your shadowlands campaign.

[loras]

Problem here is the moment anything goes to "mythic" level they'll claim they're forced. It's the nature of the beast for certain groups.

It either offers no player power and ergo might as well not exist.

Or does which as such makes it super forced. There's no in between.

Ah yes, people being forced by an inanimate game.
Sometimes people are so tiring in their nonsense.

[ippollite]

Genuinely havnt seen or heard a single person say they are against it...

Except me, right? I dont do LFG. Outside of world stuff i dont touch it. I qualify, right?

i can absolutely tell you that i couldnt care less about the gear gap. I care deeply about the skill gap.

or (replying to frozenbro pointing out said gear upgrading system in this thread only a page ago)

Yeah, you're completely right. Which is why i dont really want this at all. I just want them to make the world game more fun.

There you go. I dont want this. Hang on though, lets scroll back through my posts...

Apr 27th:

Even if you get the gear; even if you throw 220 gear at everyone, it wouldnt matter. They still play the same way, they will still be unsatisfied with their gameplay loop. Unless they step into end game, gear doesnt remotely impact them. And bfa PROVED they wont step into LFG. Thats why we're where we are now with hard caps.

Apr 9th:

What would i do in game right now if my character was sent a full 210 or 220 set in the mail? Would i suddenly feel an urge to start farming mythic dungeons or heroic raids? No. Not really. I'd play the game exactly the same way ive been playing it since about 2012. Assuming i cancelled my sub in January, would that 210 or even 220 be enough to bring me back to the game and resub (even if it was a one time offer due to expire in one week), no. Not at all. Why? Because there's nothing fun to do in the world game right now (and in the foreseeable future) to engage with. So you can tinker with all the hearthstone cooldowns you like to give me a 'world quest set', but if its THESE world quests, in THIS CURRENT iteration of the game? No. Heck, you could give me a 7 piece set bonus world ending once a week cooldown where i can destroy all my world quests and auto complete every quest available on the map. It wouldnt make me sub again. Because its boring. The world game is boring.

Im pretty consistent. An ilvl boosting system doesnt interest me. I dont care if it goes all the way to heroic gear. In fact, id suggest its just a way to pad my play time out for some pointless grind that gives me nothing more than the possibility to solo higher level world mobs. Whoopdeedoo. It doesnt remotely interest me. But couple it to a system that incentivises not only me, but also higher level players to carry me through content (and alleviate the pressure on me to perform flawlessly), in content i might have felt incredibly pressured to perform otherwise, and now its interesting. Cant we just be a little more... inclusive and positive about the game, perhaps?

[Crimson Spears]

Pure deductive reasoning on his part. He will shift all the goalposts necessary to make it fit. In two weeks he'll argue once again that casual players are too contradictory to know what they want (as if theyre a monolith despite the routine evidence they arent), that they all want mythic gear (despite me (and others) telling him i (we) dont), and that no one has answered his question about his ever moving goalposts question which is apparently super important and needs to be answered (despite it being a feature of ilvl inflation and the increase of multiple reward systems/difficulties over time). Pay it no heed.

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There are far more interesting discussions we could have:

For one, how we can incentive +15 key players to queue for +2 plaguefall?

And how we can incentivise players (who wouldnt otherwise) to list their +2 PF?

What is an appropriate valor reward? And why should this valor be BOA (because of COURSE it should!). Blizzard are so close to fixing so many issues with this one simple change (already in ptr). Im so hyped about this. Gear alone is garbage. Gear plus an incentive to USE it in the sphere its supposed to be used is mondblowing in how simple and obvious it is. All you need to do is follow through and make sure that players running 15 keys arent punished for carrying players in twos? And that they can send that valor to a character on their account that actually needs the valor?

This is a super awesome change of design, whilst retaining current philosophy. Its brilliant.

Ignoring your eye rolling rebuttal I can answer our question about incentivizing +15 players in to a +2.

You should never ever fucking do it. Stop trying to drag players who enjoy a challenge into groups of " I Play For Fun now let me rage as I wipe the group repeatedly"

People enjoy different difficulties stop trying to devise ways to offer bad players free carries.

[ippollite]

Ignoring your eye rolling rebuttal I can answer our question about incentivizing +15 players in to a +2.

You should never ever fucking do it. Stop trying to drag players who enjoy a challenging into groups of " I Play For Fun now let me rage as I wipe the group repeatedly"

People enjoy different difficulties stop trying to devise ways to offer bad players free carries.

Dude, im not. BLIZZARD IS. This is PTR stuff (it came from sloots interview with Morgan: Players are being INCENTIVISED to run mythic dungeons with a player garnering an IO upgrade through valor bonuses). Now stop getting your panties in a twist about my personal motivations.

Also, and just a point of order, which particular point was 'eye rolling'? I'd love to know.

[Crimson Spears]

Dude, im not. BLIZZARD IS. This is PTR stuff. Now stop getting your panties in a twist about my personal motivations.

Then don't ask hypothetical questions you don't want answered?

I swear your on the level of a guy about to be tasered screaming " Its just a prank bro"

[Osmeric]

Thats a very hateful way to see the game when it has been that way forever, casuals never had the best loot, so the game has reminded them that they suck for 14 years, thats what you are saying?

There's a good reason 90+% of the people who have ever played WoW no longer play WoW.

Calling the description "hateful" is an ad hominem argument. "This cannot be true, because saying it makes you a bad person."

[Crimson Spears]

There's a good reason 90+% of the people who have ever played WoW no longer play WoW.

Calling the description "hateful" is an ad hominem argument. "This cannot be true, because saying it makes you a bad person."

I don't really know if that is a good number to draw on to be honest to start with. Nearly 99% of players I bet who played the original super mario bros are not playing it today. I wouldn't say its a failure of a game.

I do find some arguments annoying on these forums though. Especially those who speak for the playerbase when we have the numbers. Covenants are the prime example of that " We want choice screamed the forums" once it went live "specs are 96%+ all the same covenant"

I don't believe these are good systems myself because I understand that over rewarding someone so content at their skill level can't offer rewards beyond a grind X for Y amount time is a terrible facebook tier system. Don't get me wrong with all the other terrible systems in the game Choreghast, conduits upgrading via time gating, and to a much lesser extent renowned it isn't a big deal but its not a good thing just because worse exists.

[Osmeric]

I don't really know if that is a good number to draw on to be honest to start with. Nearly 99% of players I bet who played the original super mario bros are not playing it today. I wouldn't say its a failure of a game.

It's a rebuttal to the argument of "it's always been this way, why is it a problem now?" It very well could have been a problem then, too.

[Crimson Spears]

It's a rebuttal to the argument of "it's always been this way, why is it a problem now?" It very well could have been a problem then, too.

I think it was to be honest. I get that bringing up the ancient past in video game terms is subjective but I can't see any catch up system barring the badge system pre sunwell as being effective.

[Golden]

But when I went ultra casual (or finish my goals), gear become totally pointless (and pushing it waste of time) when it is enough to rolfstomp open content. After that without progression goals in PVE/PVP only stuff that matters are collectibles since they are not going away.

In past expansions, I would cap out my gear in 3-4 weeks as a non-raider, and then farm random BGs to get the conquest set as a long term goal. I enjoyed the journey.

In Shadowlands, they removed gear scaling from random BGs. Now raiders can come in and 3 shot players like me, and even if I endured that, the conquest set was only 3 ilvls higher. Also note, that I've spent time doing rated BGs. However, when it takes about 20 minutes to form a team for every 15 minutes in the BG, that gets really tedious over the long term.

Shadowlands destroyed my playstyle. If they don't put some sort of gear scaling back in random BGs or some sort of ilvl cap in them, I won't be returning to the game.

[Osmeric]

I think it was to be honest. I get that bringing up the ancient past in video game terms is subjective but I can't see any catch up system barring the badge system pre sunwell as being effective.

I think the deep issue is one Blizzard didn't want to address, since addressing it would have required radical action contrary to Blizzard's culture.

The problem is that if you have good players, and not so good players, participating in the same MMO, the MMO will inevitably (if accurately) tell the not-so-good players they aren't so good. Simply having content for both doesn't fix that. And I contend this will drive away the not-so-good players.

So, Blizzard is faced with a dilemma. Cater to the good players and drive away the others, or design the game to cater ONLY to the not-so-good players. The latter would mean identifying the slice of ability/skill/motivation that has the most customers, and focusing only on those. I can understand why Blizzard would not have wanted to do this: it would go against something central in Blizzard's corporate DNA. But it could be that an unchanging dogma they have has doomed the game to inexorable decline as most of the people playing it have eventually been driven away. And if the same dogma carries over to other Blizzard games, it could help explain why they all seem to have lost steam.

[Crimson Spears]

I think the deep issue is one Blizzard didn't want to address, since addressing it would have required radical action contrary to Blizzard's culture.

The problem is that if you have good players, and not so good players, participating in the same MMO, the MMO will inevitably (if accurately) tell the not-so-good players they aren't so good. Simply having content for both doesn't fix that. And I contend this will drive away the not-so-good players.

So, Blizzard is faced with a dilemma. Cater to the good players and drive away the others, or design the game to cater ONLY to the not-so-good players. The latter would mean identifying the slice of ability/skill/motivation that has the most customers, and focusing only on those. I can understand why Blizzard would not have wanted to do this: it would go against something central in Blizzard's corporate DNA. But it could be that an unchanging dogma they have has doomed the game to inexorable decline as most of the people playing it have eventually been driven away. And if the same dogma carries over to other Blizzard games, it could help explain why they all seem to have lost steam.

I would propose the opposing view point.. why is it non raid realms are barren waste lands without any players barring very extreme niches like select rp realms?

People care more about end game even if they don't participate in it then they do average level content. Without a solid mythic culture a realm dies. It doesn't matter how many average or below average players a realm has in time they will follow the high end.

[Frozenbro]

I'd be interested to see your evidence that any casual in this thread has complained that the maw-touched gear is "not enough". The very little bit that it's actually been addressed has all been positive. Comments on Soul's video about the gear has been overwhelmingly positive.

Really, I think you people just keep making up these "predictions" out of thin air so you can claim you were somehow right all along

Meanwhile, casuals are going to have a nice progression system in 9.1 and you'll all still be sour.

the game should invalidate all the stuff in my book, same ilvl should be obtainable even in world event things, raid and mm+ should only be about achivement doing them, why any normal player that play hundreds of hours in the game vs a mythic raider who do the same number of hours and both pay the same subs should have less stuff ?

its stupid and old thinking, its why people are quitting the game, they see that unless you are PL with luck with the 10% of the guild able to do mythic raid , you will never see your character going up in progression

Found this in just page 4 of this thread, cba to search other threads or continue searching more in this thread, but yes, people that want to be equal to mythic raiders do exist (hence this system isnt enough for them), and like i said blizz should continue ignoring them forever so they can continue coming up with middle ground systems like this 1.

[arkanon]

Except me, right? I dont do LFG. Outside of world stuff i dont touch it. I qualify, right?



or (replying to frozenbro pointing out said gear upgrading system in this thread only a page ago)



There you go. I dont want this. Hang on though, lets scroll back through my posts...

Apr 27th:


Apr 9th:


Im pretty consistent. An ilvl boosting system doesnt interest me. I dont care if it goes all the way to heroic gear. In fact, id suggest its just a way to pad my play time out for some pointless grind that gives me nothing more than the possibility to solo higher level world mobs. Whoopdeedoo. It doesnt remotely interest me. But couple it to a system that incentivises not only me, but also higher level players to carry me through content (and alleviate the pressure on me to perform flawlessly), in content i might have felt incredibly pressured to perform otherwise, and now its interesting. Cant we just be a little more... inclusive and positive about the game, perhaps?

Context Is important. I was replying to someone suggesting people are getting bent out of shape regarding this change. I have not seen any "elitists" say it is a bad thing. Context.

[Frozenbro]

Hmm, well how do you like that.

I agree, ideas like that should just be ignored as the people who want that would be an extreme minority and, I'm certain, not even slightly reflective of what Blizzard would ever even think of doing.

I would lump these people in with the raiders that think anything short of Normal raiding shouldn't award gear at all. A tiny minority of idiots

Pretty much, its just a shame that, once again, blizz had to wait for a patch to adress this issue so we can once again like every expansion say "yeah this expansion was great... on its final patch after blizz adressed all the flaws".

[Revamp Man]

Wrong and Wrong. I said first tier, and you could not get bis through heroics in wrath, you could get a few great pieces, but they were not bis, it wasnt complete sets, and it again, wasnt first tier.

BfA
You could get WQ gear to scale to normal and then against overwhelming odds and the warfront

[arkanon]

There's a good reason 90+% of the people who have ever played WoW no longer play WoW.

Yes - the game is 17 years old - very few people pay $15 a month for 17 years to play one single game. You understand that this would be typical of any game that has ever been released, right?

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BfA
You could get WQ gear to scale to normal and then against overwhelming odds and the warfront

No, you couldn't. Not through solo play during the first patch. Why do people keep repeating this lie? It wasn't that long ago ....

[Revamp Man]

Yes - the game is 17 years old - very few people pay $15 a month for 17 years to play one single game. You understand that this would be typical of any game that has ever been released, right?

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No, you couldn't. Not through solo play during the first patch. Why do people keep repeating this lie? It wasn't that long ago ....

It’s not a lie lol my alts were all geared through world content like that

What ilvl were the WQ rewards in BfA according to your memory??