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  1. #1

    Leveling should be a More Mutiplayer Experience than it already is

    As everyone already knows the community/multiplayer element of classic WoW greatly adds to the enjoyment of leveling, unlike retail leveling where the path of least resistance is pretty much always to play solo. However one of the main problems that I have with classic leveling (other than it taking too long) is that it's not multiplayer enough.

    Throughout my journey to 60 I only felt obligated to group with players around me for difficult quests and "Kill X of these" quests. But I feel that if grouping was the path of least resistance for all types of quests by a significant margin that would greatly improve the leveling experience overall.

    Imagine if you didn't have to gather double the items for the gathering quests, and your xp wasn't cut in half when grouping with 1 or 2 players. The community element of the game (in regards to leveling) would thrive. For every quest players would be actively trying to group up with other players in general chat, and every zone would be filled with players looking for other players to play with. It would be so easy to make friends, and it would make the leveling experience so much easier for the people that hate leveling.

    The other benefit of this system is that you can keep leveling difficult, so that the people who actually enjoy solo leveling can still do that, and a small reward for doing so would be the gold that you make (since gold is split when ur in a group).

    The problem with retail leveling is that its so mind numbing that only bad players can enjoy it, but with this system bad players could simply group up and romp through the quests, and the portion of the playerbase that actually enjoys leveling (beyond it just being an AoE massacre like retail) wouldn't feel alienated.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Haywire5714 View Post
    As everyone already knows the community/multiplayer element of classic WoW greatly adds to the enjoyment of leveling, unlike retail leveling where the path of least resistance is pretty much always to play solo. However one of the main problems that I have with classic leveling (other than it taking too long) is that it's not multiplayer enough.

    Throughout my journey to 60 I only felt obligated to group with players around me for difficult quests and "Kill X of these" quests. But I feel that if grouping was the path of least resistance for all types of quests by a significant margin that would greatly improve the leveling experience overall.

    Imagine if you didn't have to gather double the items for the gathering quests, and your xp wasn't cut in half when grouping with 1 or 2 players. The community element of the game (in regards to leveling) would thrive. For every quest players would be actively trying to group up with other players in general chat, and every zone would be filled with players looking for other players to play with. It would be so easy to make friends, and it would make the leveling experience so much easier for the people that hate leveling.

    The other benefit of this system is that you can keep leveling difficult, so that the people who actually enjoy solo leveling can still do that, and a small reward for doing so would be the gold that you make (since gold is split when ur in a group).

    The problem with retail leveling is that its so mind numbing that only bad players can enjoy it, but with this system bad players could simply group up and romp through the quests, and the portion of the playerbase that actually enjoys leveling (beyond it just being an AoE massacre like retail) wouldn't feel alienated.
    This is a really complicated way to say "I want to punish those who wish to play solo". The main thing that classic proved is there is no "community", there is no "server identity", and players still follow the path of least resistance. Or have you forgotten all the players exploiting every single avenue they could to level as fast as possible.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  3. #3
    That's a lot of words for, "I want to do even less work than I currently have to do."

    Also that's some nice ad hominem there with the, "Only bad players enjoy leveling." I've seen CE raiders / R1 pvpers who have like 20-30+ max level chars. I don't think anyone would say DesMephisto is a bad player, and he leveled like 50 warriors to max level, and actually seemed to enjoy it.

  4. #4
    I have always thought zones should have normal, heroic, and mythic difficulties so 5-man open world groups could complete quests that would challenge them.

  5. #5
    Titan vindicatorx's Avatar
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    You play how you want to play I'll play the way I want to play how about that?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    This is a really complicated way to say "I want to punish those who wish to play solo". The main thing that classic proved is there is no "community", there is no "server identity", and players still follow the path of least resistance. Or have you forgotten all the players exploiting every single avenue they could to level as fast as possible.
    If you think classic has no community (and I never said anything about server identity) i don't even know what to say to you. I'm also not punishing solo players at all actually, I literally said to keep leveling the same but reward grouping up more. Regarding solo play in general, considering that you're supposed to play with other players in a multiplayer game, solo players should not be punished nor rewarded ... you should be able to play solo just fine but it shouldn't be the path of least resistance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryzeth View Post
    That's a lot of words for, "I want to do even less work than I currently have to do."

    Also that's some nice ad hominem there with the, "Only bad players enjoy leveling." I've seen CE raiders / R1 pvpers who have like 20-30+ max level chars. I don't think anyone would say DesMephisto is a bad player, and he leveled like 50 warriors to max level, and actually seemed to enjoy it.
    That's exactly right, it's important that people have the option do less work to get to max level, that's literally the main problem with classic leveling ... its a huge grind and most of that grind you have to do on your own. What would make it less of a grind and more of an enjoyable experience for the majority of players is if you could group up with others and not be punished for doing so.

    Also congrats you got me you managed to find a very specific kind of player to beat my argument, let me rephrase. "Retail leveling is brain rot and most players treat it like a chore you have to go through to get to max level rather than an actual enjoyable part of the game" Where as I feel like classic leveling is also treated as a chore but it has the potential not to be because it has good aspects already and good game design surrounding it (unlike retail) and it could be a lot better with the changes that i'm proposing.

    I basically want leveling to be in a place where people don't feel like they have to buy boosts. I don't want people to feel like leveling is a chore because I think that it has the potential to be fun or at least tolerable for everyone. Classic/tbc leveling is close to being good, but retail is way too far gone ... that's why i'm arguing for this change in classic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vindicatorx View Post
    You play how you want to play I'll play the way I want to play how about that?
    Wow thanks for adding nothing of value. I wanna tell you that one day you'll grow up and be able to post an actual argument that makes sense and is relevant to the original post, but considering your account is over 10 years old you're probably just a really stupid adult and you'll never change.
    Last edited by Haywire5714; 2021-05-08 at 02:56 AM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Haywire5714 View Post
    (1)That's exactly right, it's important that people have the option do less work to get to max level, that's literally the main problem with classic leveling ... its a huge grind and most of that grind you have to do on your own. What would make it less of a grind and more of an enjoyable experience for the majority of players is if you could group up with others and not be punished for doing so.

    (2)Also congrats you got me you managed to find a very specific kind of player to beat my argument, let me rephrase. "Retail leveling is brain rot and most players treat it like a chore you have to go through to get to max level rather than an actual enjoyable part of the game" Where as I feel like classic leveling is also treated as a chore but it has the potential not to be because it has good aspects already and good game design surrounding it (unlike retail) and it could be a lot better with the changes that i'm proposing.

    (3)I basically want leveling to be in a place where people don't feel like they have to buy boosts. I don't want people to feel like leveling is a chore because I think that it has the potential to be fun or at least tolerable for everyone. Classic/tbc leveling is close to being good, but retail is way too far gone ... that's why i'm arguing for this change in classic.
    =
    -Numbered your points to make it easier to respond to each of them.

    1) You don't have to do it on your own, just like you don't have to in retail. You choose to. There's multiple different forums, subreddits and Discords you can use to find people to play with.

    2) Gonna need a citation on that (The people who visit 3rd party websites/forums are a minority in terms of the whole playerbase). I, personally, know more people who enjoy leveling after the SL changes, than ones who "find it a chore" - The ones who don't like leveling, already have the classes they want to play anyway, so also aren't bothered by it. Yes, this is anecdotal, but so is yours. If you don't like leveling, maybe an MMO just isn't for you since it's a core aspect of them. Personally I've leveled 2 chars to max this week alone. I enjoy finding ways to make things quicker each time.

    3) If you feel like you have to buy boosts, that's more of a personal problem than anything. If you don't wanna level, then yes, that's exactly what boosts are for. As for 'arguing this change in classic- well then I simply point you back to point 1. If you wanna level with others, there's literally nothing stopping you.
    Last edited by Ryzeth; 2021-05-08 at 03:11 AM.

  8. #8
    Why fix, try to improve, or work on anything when you can just sell the skip. Not saying you are right or wrong.. just more.. well.. Blizzard would have to do something and there is the problem.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Haywire5714 View Post
    keep leveling the same

    but


    reward grouping up more.
    "keep it the same, BUT fundamentally change the leveling experience".

    This thread, and your attitude towards other forum users, is a walking hypocrisy and contradiction. Literally your first reply in the thread and you go completely off at someone because they really dont like your suggestion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryzeth View Post
    -Numbered your points to make it easier to respond to each of them.

    1) You don't have to do it on your own, just like you don't have to in retail. You choose to. There's multiple different forums, subreddits and Discords you can use to find people to play with.

    2) Gonna need a citation on that (The people who visit 3rd party websites/forums are a minority in terms of the whole playerbase). I, personally, know more people who enjoy leveling after the SL changes, than ones who "find it a chore" - The ones who don't like leveling, already have the classes they want to play anyway, so also aren't bothered by it. Yes, this is anecdotal, but so is yours. If you don't like leveling, maybe an MMO just isn't for you since it's a core aspect of them. Personally I've leveled 2 chars to max this week alone. I enjoy finding ways to make things quicker each time.

    3) If you feel like you have to buy boosts, that's more of a personal problem than anything. If you don't wanna level, then yes, that's exactly what boosts are for. As for 'arguing this change in classic- well then I simply point you back to point 1. If you wanna level with others, there's literally nothing stopping you.
    1) You choose to do the path of least resistance, everyone does ... unless they're trying to do some kinky personal challenge, but you know and I know that most people choose the path of least resistance. So you design the game to make the path of least resistance as fun as possible, and in my opinion the way to do that is to encourage playing with other players in a multiplayer game.

    2) I'm not talking about me or what I like, i'm telling you that most people aren't going to level because they do not find it an enjoyable or tolerable experience. Does that mean that most people just hate leveling and leveling is a lost cause and all these people should not play MMO's? No not at all, it means that leveling is just not in a good enough state for a lot of people to enjoy it, but with improvements it could be. And that's what i'm proposing .... improvements. I don't have actual sources and neither do you because blizzard doesn't publish their numbers and the numbers that they do have probably don't show all of the details anyway so I don't know why you would even ask. But to me it is ridiculously obvious that one of the biggest barriers to entry in classic WoW is leveling ... it's undeniably a huge reason why a lot of people don't play the game and I don't think is has to be that way.

    3) It's not more of a personal problem actually, it's the path of least resistance for a lot of people to level using boosts so that's what they do. Simple as that. My whole argument is that I don't want boosts to be the path of least resistance, I want as many people to enjoy the leveling experience as possible or at least be able to tolerate it without feeling like they have to boost because they simply would not be able to stomach the traditional leveling process.

    You say there's nothing stopping players from leveling with other people but i literally outlined in my original post whats preventing people from leveling with others ... just read it.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Haywire5714 View Post
    You say there's nothing stopping players from leveling with other people but i literally outlined in my original post whats preventing people from leveling with others ... just read it.
    The only thing stopping them, is their own personal choices. That is a fact.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Haywire5714 View Post
    snip
    The community in classic is the same community in retail, just in classic they are forced to spam in chat to get groups for stuff, most of the time in classic you just do things with your guild so just like retail you ignore everything else because its a waste of time.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryzeth View Post
    The only thing stopping them, is their own personal choices. That is a fact.
    It's not a fact, it's completely untrue ... I've seen people like you before you think that everything is just a choice independent of any other factors. As if humans are these beings that have complete and total free will, and nothing influences what you do and why you do things but its just not true.

    Humans make choices/decisions in predictable ways based on the environmental factors that are placed upon them. If you place people in an environment where social interaction is encouraged (classic WoW leveling) then they will be social. If you place people in an environment where social interaction is not encouraged (retail leveling) players ON AVERAGE will not be social.

    Hell with the way that you think about things why even make changes to the game at all, people are going to choose what they wanna do at the end of the day and even if the game is amazing people can still on mass choose to not play so why even bother right?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    The community in classic is the same community in retail, just in classic they are forced to spam in chat to get groups for stuff, most of the time in classic you just do things with your guild so just like retail you ignore everything else because its a waste of time.
    No you're just wrong, the classic community is completely different than retail. Dungeon/Pug groups are much more patient and understanding on average, people group up and talk to each other much more in the open world, people help each other out much more on average, it is massively easier to make friends in classic than on retail ... everything you just said is a complete lie.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Haywire5714 View Post
    No you're just wrong, the classic community is completely different than retail. Dungeon/Pug groups are much more patient and understanding on average, people group up and talk to each other much more in the open world, people help each other out much more on average, it is massively easier to make friends in classic than on retail ... everything you just said is a complete lie.
    Well, my anecdotal experience is that people are mostly the same in retail and in Classic:
    Those that want to be optimal and compete play with like-minded people, whilst the "dad-players" play with other dads.
    Those that want to be the best they can be filter out people just like they do in Retail: Competitive people don't want to play with non-competitive people
    The "chill-people" play just like they play in Retail.

    The only difference between Classic and Retail is that there in Classic is considerable more "entitled" and "all-knowing" people and by that I mean people that feel that they have the right to tell other people how to play and whom get very angry and upset if people don't play the "correct way".

    My advice to you is to worry less about how other people play the game and to spend your energy on finding people that have the same idea of fun and "the correct way of playing" and group up with them and ignore those people "that play the wrong way".
    Just look at the "dads" and the "min/maxers"! They instinctively find people like themselves and ignore everybody else.

  15. #15
    Mechagnome Ladey Gags's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haywire5714 View Post
    Wow thanks for adding nothing of value. I wanna tell you that one day you'll grow up and be able to post an actual argument that makes sense and is relevant to the original post, but considering your account is over 10 years old you're probably just a really stupid adult and you'll never change.
    LMFAO you haven’t grown up either if you bite back at someone looking for attention and call them “really stupid”. You think you have all the self awareness in the world yet you lack even an ounce of it. You’re the epitome of the narcissistic clown society we live in

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Haywire5714 View Post
    It's not a fact, it's completely untrue ... I've seen people like you before you think that everything is just a choice independent of any other factors. As if humans are these beings that have complete and total free will, and nothing influences what you do and why you do things but its just not true.

    Humans make choices/decisions in predictable ways based on the environmental factors that are placed upon them. If you place people in an environment where social interaction is encouraged (classic WoW leveling) then they will be social. If you place people in an environment where social interaction is not encouraged (retail leveling) players ON AVERAGE will not be social.

    Hell with the way that you think about things why even make changes to the game at all, people are going to choose what they wanna do at the end of the day and even if the game is amazing people can still on mass choose to not play so why even bother right?
    It is a fact. Blizzard doesn't force you to do anything, therefore it is personal choice to level the way you're implying you 'have to' level.

    Hell, I'm in a guild (and a community, and a discord! All 3 separate) with people that frequently makes new characters together, to level together.

    Maybe WoW just isn't for you.

  17. #17

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Haywire5714 View Post
    You say there's nothing stopping players from leveling with other people but i literally outlined in my original post whats preventing people from leveling with others ... just read it.
    You are confusing some extremely simple terms - stopping vs disincentivizing. The only way Blizzard could STOP grouping is by literally removing the ability to form a group with others. You feel they disincentivize grouping, and then perform some spectacular mental gymnastics to try (and fail) to convince us that Blizzard is in some way stopping people from forming groups to level, despite multiple people telling you they do group up to level. I myself have leveled with people since 2004, and continue to do it in both retail and classic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by T-34 View Post
    Well, my anecdotal experience is that people are mostly the same in retail and in Classic:
    Those that want to be optimal and compete play with like-minded people, whilst the "dad-players" play with other dads.
    Those that want to be the best they can be filter out people just like they do in Retail: Competitive people don't want to play with non-competitive people
    The "chill-people" play just like they play in Retail.

    The only difference between Classic and Retail is that there in Classic is considerable more "entitled" and "all-knowing" people and by that I mean people that feel that they have the right to tell other people how to play and whom get very angry and upset if people don't play the "correct way".

    My advice to you is to worry less about how other people play the game and to spend your energy on finding people that have the same idea of fun and "the correct way of playing" and group up with them and ignore those people "that play the wrong way".
    Just look at the "dads" and the "min/maxers"! They instinctively find people like themselves and ignore everybody else.
    I couldn't care less about your anecdotal experience, I could literally say something dumb like "most of the players that I see like to get around in a circle and play ring around the rosy rather than level therefore that is what most players must also be doing" but it doesn't make it true.

    I'm actually genuinely confused at your response in general, like where do you get the idea that I care about how people enjoy the game or that I think players are playing the wrong way? I literally am just suggesting an idea to improve the game for players who don't like the current state of leveling and the change will not effect players who currently do enjoy it so whats your problem?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ladey Gags View Post
    LMFAO you haven’t grown up either if you bite back at someone looking for attention and call them “really stupid”. You think you have all the self awareness in the world yet you lack even an ounce of it. You’re the epitome of the narcissistic clown society we live in
    Why wouldn't I bite back when you say some dumb shit in response to what I said?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    You are confusing some extremely simple terms - stopping vs disincentivizing. The only way Blizzard could STOP grouping is by literally removing the ability to form a group with others. You feel they disincentivize grouping, and then perform some spectacular mental gymnastics to try (and fail) to convince us that Blizzard is in some way stopping people from forming groups to level, despite multiple people telling you they do group up to level. I myself have leveled with people since 2004, and continue to do it in both retail and classic.
    I'm talking about disincentivizing not stopping nice try tho.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryzeth View Post
    It is a fact. Blizzard doesn't force you to do anything, therefore it is personal choice to level the way you're implying you 'have to' level.

    Hell, I'm in a guild (and a community, and a discord! All 3 separate) with people that frequently makes new characters together, to level together.

    Maybe WoW just isn't for you.
    You keep using anecdotes as if they actually mean anything and assuming the way that I play WoW when I have not even once mentioned the way that I play or enjoy the game and it's making me cringe really hard that you keep doing this.

    Also people make personal choices BASED ON ENVIRONMENTAL FACTORS ... stop saying it is a "personal choice" as if the choices that people make are in a vacuum and nothing external effects the choices that people make ever. I haven't even mentioned once about blizzard forcing you to do anything, you literally just pulled that out of your ass. I'm talking about incentivization, because it's a very real thing regardless of if you understand it or not.
    Last edited by Haywire5714; 2021-05-08 at 05:51 AM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Haywire5714 View Post
    I'm genuinely confused at your response in general, like where do you get the idea that I care about how people enjoy the game or that I think players are playing the wrong way? I literally am just suggesting an idea to improve the game for players who don't like the current state of leveling and the change will not effect players who currently do enjoy it so whats your problem?.
    But it will affect players who currently enjoy how levelling is in Classic. If you start to reward grouping much more then that will become the most efficient and thereby you will be punishing and disincentivize people who prefer to level solo.
    Your argument that it won't affect other people is not correct. And that is why I wrote what I wrote about entitled people who feel they have the right to decide how the game should be and how you should play the game.

    Is the levelling system in Classic good compared to retail? No, it isn't. It is shit in my opinion, but the idea behind Classic was, and is, to recreate it as good as possible - a living museum with the good and the bad. And that is what we have.

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