Shadowlands could be amazing if...

[Mafic]

At least devs did a great effort in Cata by revamping most of the old world in order to have it ready for flight. The 4-5 small zones of SL are simply underwhelming.

At least the disjointed zones of Cata were actually nested in the world for the most part. Current zone design is so bad.

[nvaelz]

Blizzard needs to drop the ideal of "elitism" from this game once and for all. Make content GENTLE and nice for people to get gear and make high difficulty content drop TRANSMOGs, TITLEs etc; that's waht elitists want anyways right....

Make us be able to queue a NON timed dungeon with friends and have a low probability droprate at GOD TIER level gear so we can have something to be excited about...

Make crafting have this too maybe, I LOVE titanforging when its not in a m+, m+ is literally garbage for some people and the game is really negative and maybe blizzard can actually listen to the voices fo the crying people, these threads are not rly uncommon now are they?

Then we have the ppl loving how brutal the game is and u know what? im pretty brutal myself (cant post links cuz mmochamp hates me, worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/character/eu/argent-dawn/srsp/pvp, LOOK at my random bg winratio, it's completely pointless and gives no reward but its pretty difficult to win all the time... U dont understand do u?

This game is designed for some type of ppl and alienates others, like ppl wanting adventure or to craft or to make friends(but also belong in the progression) maybe if we all voice AGAINST the negativity we can get things done, cuz its REALLY negative ok. BTW look at my winratio its pretty good right???

I'll farm any of you boosted gladiators any time and i'll make r1s ragequit cuz they are gonna lose vs me and my team of bronies in the bgs so kek talk about my ratings.


Oh and as always every time i open my mouth some tryhard stabber is gonna try to stab me personally, LISTEN, we want to enjoy our lives, we want to play game and make alts and actually enjoy playing them, we want to know that we can be as strong as mythic raiders and top pvpers if we just put our effort into a character, we want LEGION again man, and if u can't make a better version of it then its really a conspiracy surrounding the token greed and dont dare to talk about my personality i'll literally not even respond cuz that would make me banned here, and u know what? u'll be smart about how u insult me and not get banned(cuz u are a professional troll and im an easy target like a beautiful angel floating around an archery range.)


Vanilla had boe epics, it had low droprate dungeons, it had good raids, it was all casual tier content, it had extreme farms and it was amazing and inviting and it made u make friends... Shadowlands is a dark place filled with gold boosters and the ever watching Tokenman watching u from his castle Torghast or wahtevr...

log in and see ur trade chat spammed with gold boosts, go into premade pvp finder and its 90% boosters, and then u question how much money blizzard makes from tokens and then u add that to ur conclusions about how the game is designed, it's not rocket science its greed and hatred toward the player base apparently cuz too many ppl are unhappy and sad and love this game but its just sooooo bad right now, atleast if u want gear its not fun at all its just so negative and im rly sensitive to this negativity so i am frustrated cuz i love this game and i love playing it and u can think that im not good at it so im crying but u know its not true if u look at my winratio bro, "oh it doesnt matter" well u couldnt have it now can u? so im like a god compared to u at PVP when its in a battle ground man, so listen, this is a battle ground and we are gonna win and get phat small drop rate loots from wonderful dungeons and we are all gonna get along, we are not gonna keep going on this path of negativity anymore, because it is ruining peoples hearts, and u can sit there and cry about ur gold boosting business losing customers, but i dont care about ur business, u can go sell lemonade on the street bro.

Pls i know u wanna put me down, i know u wanna make me cry, i know u wanna assert ur dominance and i know when i say "gold boosters are lame" u will be insulted.

[Palapop]

Don't you remember lolpandas? People said the exact same thing, it "didn't feel" like Warcraft. And now we have you saying this. There were "so so many flaws" that it made no sense for the Warcraft universe. I literally heard these exact same comments 8 years ago.

But there IS so, so many flaws in SL story telling.

They literally nullified EVERYTHING we "knew" about death so far in Warcraft universe.

And many, many, MANY things are extremely illogical.

1. Sylvanas (who was sworn to protect her people and find solace) working with/for the very same faction (The Janitor) who caused her damnation.

2. Concept of spirit healers, ghosts, spirits....
Who are Shamans talking to?
How did Zandalari manage to resurrect Lei Shen after so many... centuries?
How did DKs manage to resurrect Legion horsemen after some of them were dead for so long... and apparently, "death works differently".
Who/what are the spirits in Lordaeron? If they were not consumed by the Frostmourne, nor did any lazy Kyrian take them to face the Arbiter..... were they just forgotten lol?
Demon souls now don't go there? Or they do? Or they do not?

3. Night elves got.......... lol.... I won't even go there (this is about 9.1 story telling)


this is just if we speak about LORE.


If we would talk about "systems". Damn... I would purge EVERYTHING.
*0 borrowed power (bring back tier sets instead)
*0 "legendary" items (bring back TBC-style of "legendary" items (1 super rare drop).... BUT... if that's too "harsh" for socials, then I could go with MOP model too)
*0 covenant abilities/conduits/anything (bring back MOP-era glyph system)
*remove "prestige" honor system (1 of the worst, mindless grinds EVER implemented in WOW)
*bring back 5.4 patch class design and talent trees
*remove "pvp talents"
*remove HUUUUUUUGE gear inflation (instead of having ~70 ilvls difference within ONE patch, let us have 2 "tiers" of gear and that's it)
*bring back PROPER pvp gear
*remove weekly rng sloth machine (vault) and bring back hp/vp system
*fix professions


damn... list is huge.... and it's ever increasing.

[aceperson]

It’s almost like iterating on existing, successful systems is a better way to design the game than constantly reinventing the wheel and throwing shit at the wall until it sticks.

i agree and disagree with your premise. it's a safer and more successful way certainly. but reinventing the wheel isn't without merit. there are games that push the boundaries of genres and make whole new games. you know league of legends? that spawned from a custom game in warcraft 3, an rts game. the creator reinvented the wheel by taking pre-existing assets, reusing the item and shop systems, reusing the premise of creep spawn camps and changing it to creep waves, etc, etc. basically, lol was a result of reinventing the wheel. the issue blizzard has it has no idea when to call it quits. they can't tell when it's reasonably done or when it won't reasonably work.

torghast is a great example of both actually. the alpha version had testers loving and praising blizzard for such a great new way to play. well, blizzard didn't realize people were happy and continued to reinvent the wheel. this led to the timers that people protested against. blizz decided to listen for once and removed them but then decided to shorten the run to only 6 floors and capping the amount of times you could grab a power. they reinvented the wheel so much, they went full circle and ruined it again. now they are doubling down on the bad design for 9.1. the alpha version was reasonably done and they didn't stop. the current and 9.1 versions won't reasonably work and they won't stop.

[Devilyaki]

Blizzard needs to drop the ideal of "elitism" from this game once and for all. Make content GENTLE and nice for people to get gear and make high difficulty content drop TRANSMOGs, TITLEs etc; that's waht elitists want anyways right....

Make us be able to queue a NON timed dungeon with friends and have a low probability droprate at GOD TIER level gear so we can have something to be excited about...

Make crafting have this too maybe, I LOVE titanforging when its not in a m+, m+ is literally garbage for some people and the game is really negative and maybe blizzard can actually listen to the voices fo the crying people, these threads are not rly uncommon now are they?

Then we have the ppl loving how brutal the game is and u know what? im pretty brutal myself (cant post links cuz mmochamp hates me, worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/character/eu/argent-dawn/srsp/pvp, LOOK at my random bg winratio, it's completely pointless and gives no reward but its pretty difficult to win all the time... U dont understand do u?

This game is designed for some type of ppl and alienates others, like ppl wanting adventure or to craft or to make friends(but also belong in the progression) maybe if we all voice AGAINST the negativity we can get things done, cuz its REALLY negative ok. BTW look at my winratio its pretty good right???

I'll farm any of you boosted gladiators any time and i'll make r1s ragequit cuz they are gonna lose vs me and my team of bronies in the bgs so kek talk about my ratings.


Oh and as always every time i open my mouth some tryhard stabber is gonna try to stab me personally, LISTEN, we want to enjoy our lives, we want to play game and make alts and actually enjoy playing them, we want to know that we can be as strong as mythic raiders and top pvpers if we just put our effort into a character, we want LEGION again man, and if u can't make a better version of it then its really a conspiracy surrounding the token greed and dont dare to talk about my personality i'll literally not even respond cuz that would make me banned here, and u know what? u'll be smart about how u insult me and not get banned(cuz u are a professional troll and im an easy target like a beautiful angel floating around an archery range.)


Vanilla had boe epics, it had low droprate dungeons, it had good raids, it was all casual tier content, it had extreme farms and it was amazing and inviting and it made u make friends... Shadowlands is a dark place filled with gold boosters and the ever watching Tokenman watching u from his castle Torghast or wahtevr...

log in and see ur trade chat spammed with gold boosts, go into premade pvp finder and its 90% boosters, and then u question how much money blizzard makes from tokens and then u add that to ur conclusions about how the game is designed, it's not rocket science its greed and hatred toward the player base apparently cuz too many ppl are unhappy and sad and love this game but its just sooooo bad right now, atleast if u want gear its not fun at all its just so negative and im rly sensitive to this negativity so i am frustrated cuz i love this game and i love playing it and u can think that im not good at it so im crying but u know its not true if u look at my winratio bro, "oh it doesnt matter" well u couldnt have it now can u? so im like a god compared to u at PVP when its in a battle ground man, so listen, this is a battle ground and we are gonna win and get phat small drop rate loots from wonderful dungeons and we are all gonna get along, we are not gonna keep going on this path of negativity anymore, because it is ruining peoples hearts, and u can sit there and cry about ur gold boosting business losing customers, but i dont care about ur business, u can go sell lemonade on the street bro.

Pls i know u wanna put me down, i know u wanna make me cry, i know u wanna assert ur dominance and i know when i say "gold boosters are lame" u will be insulted.

Bit long but yes I am with you. Let the game be fun again and not a toxic job

[Osmeric]

Bit long but yes I am with you. Let the game be fun again and not a toxic job

Alas, we're not going to get anything like that from Blizzard. It's just too far from their corporate game design dogma. It's going in exactly the opposite direction now, with e-sports and in-game ratings and the like. The end result is going to be a lower MAU game with lots of predatory $$$ mechanics to keep it afloat.

[cparle87]

But there IS so, so many flaws in SL story telling.

They literally nullified EVERYTHING we "knew" about death so far in Warcraft universe.

And many, many, MANY things are extremely illogical.

1. Sylvanas (who was sworn to protect her people and find solace) working with/for the very same faction (The Janitor) who caused her damnation.

2. Concept of spirit healers, ghosts, spirits....
Who are Shamans talking to?
How did Zandalari manage to resurrect Lei Shen after so many... centuries?
How did DKs manage to resurrect Legion horsemen after some of them were dead for so long... and apparently, "death works differently".
Who/what are the spirits in Lordaeron? If they were not consumed by the Frostmourne, nor did any lazy Kyrian take them to face the Arbiter..... were they just forgotten lol?
Demon souls now don't go there? Or they do? Or they do not?

3. Night elves got.......... lol.... I won't even go there (this is about 9.1 story telling)


this is just if we speak about LORE.


If we would talk about "systems". Damn... I would purge EVERYTHING.
*0 borrowed power (bring back tier sets instead)
*0 "legendary" items (bring back TBC-style of "legendary" items (1 super rare drop).... BUT... if that's too "harsh" for socials, then I could go with MOP model too)
*0 covenant abilities/conduits/anything (bring back MOP-era glyph system)
*remove "prestige" honor system (1 of the worst, mindless grinds EVER implemented in WOW)
*bring back 5.4 patch class design and talent trees
*remove "pvp talents"
*remove HUUUUUUUGE gear inflation (instead of having ~70 ilvls difference within ONE patch, let us have 2 "tiers" of gear and that's it)
*bring back PROPER pvp gear
*remove weekly rng sloth machine (vault) and bring back hp/vp system
*fix professions


damn... list is huge.... and it's ever increasing.

1. Sylvanas never saw her people as more than tools. Up to Wrath they were arrows in her quiver, her words. Post-Cata they're her shield. As for the Jailer, how was he responsible? He's flat out said he wanted to use Ner'zhul and Arthas as puppets but they didn't do what he wanted.

2. We know for a fact not all souls go to the Shadowlands. We see thousands of orc ancestors walking around Oshu'gun. We also have no indication that creatures of stone even have souls. They've been likened to automotans or golems more than once. Reactivating him pretty much. Again, we know for a fact the kyrians don't get all souls, explaining the Horsemen. The spirits in Lordaeron are the people of Lordaeron, you said it yourself. Yes, they were forgotten. Yes, we've always known demon souls don't go to the Shadowlands. The kyrians even have a WQ where they show you various demons, including undead, naaru, elementals, and demons, and ask you whether the kyrians bring them or ignore them.

Tier sets are borrowed power for a single tier, not even whole expansions.
You mean the MoP era where you inserted your bis prime glyph, bis major glyphs, and occassionally fiddled around with the cosmetic minor glyphs?
Not even sure what you mean? The honor bar where you get mounts/pets/toys every few dozens levels? You seem to hate content to earn.
The talent trees that gave us the illusion of choice?
So you want even more content removed.
Then people would complain they're not noticeable strong at the end of a tier complared to the beginning of one. They tried smaller tiers in WoD, people hated them.
What is "proper" pvp gear? Resilience. See? You give "feedback" that is completely empty without any suggestions of improvement.
You mean the system where people complained about beinf "forced" to grind dungeons for HP/VP or that the VP gear didn't have their bis stats?
Again empty "feedback" with absolutely no substance.

Seems to me you're going out of your way to complain about every possible thing. Here's a tip. Waving your hand and going "see how bad it is" is not feedback. You want to make an argument, make it. Don't expect other people to argue your point for you.

- - - Updated - - -

Bit long but yes I am with you. Let the game be fun again and not a toxic job

Repeat after me. N o s t a l g i a.

[Alroxas]

Good, fuck em. Game doesn't need to cater for everyone.

Unfortunately the bean counters don't agree. Also there was a game that catered specifically to the hardcore raiders... What was it? Wildstar, I think? Not around anymore is it?

[roboscorcher]

The covenant-class abilities will forever taint this expansion. All they had to do was make these abilities available to all covenants in some capacity, and the rest of the system would be fine. But they ignored public outcry, and now theyre still wasting time trying to balance them. The devs need to make it a company mantra that if you force MMO players to choose between options, there will always be a BiS. And most players will always want that BiS. Therefore, locking down the options is really screwing players over.

Also, Blizz ruined another feature of Shadowlands. Torghast was a fun roguelike, but they made it a weekly chore. They also refused to give us fun cosmetics, and added annoying torments, and made the system a total waste of time unless you make it to the end.

I have no faith in the dev team. I get that they're trying, and they made more concessions to player feedback than in BfA. But it was clearly not enough.

[Mafic]

Blizzard needs to drop the ideal of "elitism" from this game once and for all. Make content GENTLE and nice for people to get gear and make high difficulty content drop TRANSMOGs, TITLEs etc; that's waht elitists want anyways right....

Make us be able to queue a NON timed dungeon with friends and have a low probability droprate at GOD TIER level gear so we can have something to be excited about...

Make crafting have this too maybe, I LOVE titanforging when its not in a m+, m+ is literally garbage for some people and the game is really negative and maybe blizzard can actually listen to the voices fo the crying people, these threads are not rly uncommon now are they?

Then we have the ppl loving how brutal the game is and u know what? im pretty brutal myself (cant post links cuz mmochamp hates me, worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/character/eu/argent-dawn/srsp/pvp, LOOK at my random bg winratio, it's completely pointless and gives no reward but its pretty difficult to win all the time... U dont understand do u?

This game is designed for some type of ppl and alienates others, like ppl wanting adventure or to craft or to make friends(but also belong in the progression) maybe if we all voice AGAINST the negativity we can get things done, cuz its REALLY negative ok. BTW look at my winratio its pretty good right???

I'll farm any of you boosted gladiators any time and i'll make r1s ragequit cuz they are gonna lose vs me and my team of bronies in the bgs so kek talk about my ratings.


Oh and as always every time i open my mouth some tryhard stabber is gonna try to stab me personally, LISTEN, we want to enjoy our lives, we want to play game and make alts and actually enjoy playing them, we want to know that we can be as strong as mythic raiders and top pvpers if we just put our effort into a character, we want LEGION again man, and if u can't make a better version of it then its really a conspiracy surrounding the token greed and dont dare to talk about my personality i'll literally not even respond cuz that would make me banned here, and u know what? u'll be smart about how u insult me and not get banned(cuz u are a professional troll and im an easy target like a beautiful angel floating around an archery range.)


Vanilla had boe epics, it had low droprate dungeons, it had good raids, it was all casual tier content, it had extreme farms and it was amazing and inviting and it made u make friends... Shadowlands is a dark place filled with gold boosters and the ever watching Tokenman watching u from his castle Torghast or wahtevr...

log in and see ur trade chat spammed with gold boosts, go into premade pvp finder and its 90% boosters, and then u question how much money blizzard makes from tokens and then u add that to ur conclusions about how the game is designed, it's not rocket science its greed and hatred toward the player base apparently cuz too many ppl are unhappy and sad and love this game but its just sooooo bad right now, atleast if u want gear its not fun at all its just so negative and im rly sensitive to this negativity so i am frustrated cuz i love this game and i love playing it and u can think that im not good at it so im crying but u know its not true if u look at my winratio bro, "oh it doesnt matter" well u couldnt have it now can u? so im like a god compared to u at PVP when its in a battle ground man, so listen, this is a battle ground and we are gonna win and get phat small drop rate loots from wonderful dungeons and we are all gonna get along, we are not gonna keep going on this path of negativity anymore, because it is ruining peoples hearts, and u can sit there and cry about ur gold boosting business losing customers, but i dont care about ur business, u can go sell lemonade on the street bro.

Pls i know u wanna put me down, i know u wanna make me cry, i know u wanna assert ur dominance and i know when i say "gold boosters are lame" u will be insulted.

I have to agree that BlizZard needs to respect different paths of progression. For example making relevant and useful gear from crafting has been dead for a long time.

[starstationprofm]

They need to make Soulbinds and Covenant Spells universal. You choose 1.

The Covenants should be strictly cosmetic/story wise.

[Tsarez]

It’s almost like iterating on existing, successful systems is a better way to design the game than constantly reinventing the wheel and throwing shit at the wall until it sticks.

The reason the zones seem so lame is because you primarily engage with them in randomized world quests, rather than any kind of crafted experience. The story and characters are lame because following more important people around and watching them do things isn’t an engaging way to tell a story in an interactive medium.

I agree. I'd much rather be helping all covenants, than being pigeon holed into one zone. As someone who primarily only plays one char, I am 98% of the lore-time in Ardenwald, 1.5% in Torghast and 0.5% in The Maw, hoping I could turn it into a 0. The rest of the world I encounter exclusively through random WQs and even then only when my covenant DQ sends me there.

Such a waste. I literally played two alt chars up to 60, just to experience Venthyr and Kyrian. I have no interest in playing either of those chars in terms of late game. They're still sub 180 item level. Unfortunately I still didn't get to play through the Necrolord quests since I don't feel like leveling yet another character for it, and I can't be bothered switching to it.

This legitimately takes away quite a lot of fun for me tbh, but for now raiding and M+ keeps me engaged. I just feel like there is so much missed opportunity here... we could have had open covenants, do quests for them all, choose covenant specific spells and traits / conduits etc. more fluidly... engage more with the whole world and be the savior of all of Shadowlands.

Instead we made a mEanInGfUl cHoIcE to remain stationary in only 1/5th of the created world. Ugh.

- - - Updated - - -

Blizzard needs to drop the ideal of "elitism" from this game once and for all. Make content GENTLE and nice for people to get gear and make high difficulty content drop TRANSMOGs, TITLEs etc; that's waht elitists want anyways right....

snip.

Kinda hard to read but I agree with the core of it. There are games out there that do the whole "other things to do" better, like FF, BDO or ESO.
Problem with them is that their encounter designs are dogshit, or that they're missing crucial aspects of what I would consider the archetype MMORPG elements, like classical dungeons. Or their core gameplay is centered around insane grind and RNG, especially in BDO. Which is why I stopped playing FF, ESO and BDO and started playing WoW with Shadowlands for the first time ever. So far, it does what I want from a game better than the rest: Major raid experiences with intricate encounters.

I would just wish for more secondary elements to that. Meaningful crafting for example. A dungeon concept that isn't centered around speed. More engagement with other covenants and access to their cosmetics. Just to name a few...

[nvaelz]

I agree. I'd much rather be helping all covenants, than being pigeon holed into one zone. As someone who primarily only plays one char, I am 98% of the lore-time in Ardenwald, 1.5% in Torghast and 0.5% in The Maw, hoping I could turn it into a 0. The rest of the world I encounter exclusively through random WQs and even then only when my covenant DQ sends me there.

Such a waste. I literally played two alt chars up to 60, just to experience Venthyr and Kyrian. I have no interest in playing either of those chars in terms of late game. They're still sub 180 item level. Unfortunately I still didn't get to play through the Necrolord quests since I don't feel like leveling yet another character for it, and I can't be bothered switching to it.

This legitimately takes away quite a lot of fun for me tbh, but for now raiding and M+ keeps me engaged. I just feel like there is so much missed opportunity here... we could have had open covenants, do quests for them all, choose covenant specific spells and traits / conduits etc. more fluidly... engage more with the whole world and be the savior of all of Shadowlands.

Instead we made a mEanInGfUl cHoIcE to remain stationary in only 1/5th of the created world. Ugh.

- - - Updated - - -



Kinda hard to read but I agree with the core of it. There are games out there that do the whole "other things to do" better, like FF, BDO or ESO.
Problem with them is that their encounter designs are dogshit, or that they're missing crucial aspects of what I would consider the archetype MMORPG elements, like classical dungeons. Or their core gameplay is centered around insane grind and RNG, especially in BDO. Which is why I stopped playing FF, ESO and BDO and started playing WoW with Shadowlands for the first time ever. So far, it does what I want from a game better than the rest: Major raid experiences with intricate encounters.

I would just wish for more secondary elements to that. Meaningful crafting for example. A dungeon concept that isn't centered around speed. More engagement with other covenants and access to their cosmetics. Just to name a few...

Game is hard and world is empty, content is gated, crafting is not good, cuz ppl boost for gold and blizzard sell gold = designed to be horrible for players. Blizz shud increase sub cost to $20-25 and stop deception design for profits, i can design this game better than them alone. Rep farms are useless. Gn.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Shadowlands would be more awesome if you stop focusing on the things you don't like.
The only thing I actually dislike about the expansion is the removal of systems like Titanforging and AP. Much much less to do on my character, and that leads to malaise. Still plenty to do, just not on my main.

Obviously I would prefer the first season to not be so long too.
Past that, it has been the best launch of any expansion to date in my opinion.
Certainly better than BFA and Legion.

[Palapop]

Tier sets are borrowed power for a single tier, not even whole expansions.
You mean the MoP era where you inserted your bis prime glyph, bis major glyphs, and occassionally fiddled around with the cosmetic minor glyphs?
Not even sure what you mean? The honor bar where you get mounts/pets/toys every few dozens levels? You seem to hate content to earn.
The talent trees that gave us the illusion of choice?
So you want even more content removed.
Then people would complain they're not noticeable strong at the end of a tier complared to the beginning of one. They tried smaller tiers in WoD, people hated them.
What is "proper" pvp gear? Resilience. See? You give "feedback" that is completely empty without any suggestions of improvement.
You mean the system where people complained about beinf "forced" to grind dungeons for HP/VP or that the VP gear didn't have their bis stats?
Again empty "feedback" with absolutely no substance.

Seems to me you're going out of your way to complain about every possible thing. Here's a tip. Waving your hand and going "see how bad it is" is not feedback. You want to make an argument, make it. Don't expect other people to argue your point for you.

First of all, I didn't want to make any argument. I made my statement. You are the 1 who wants to argue and prolong this meaningless "conversation".

About the rest- I really cba to reply.

You and I have very, VERY different views. And seems 1 of us agrees with vast majority of players who find all those systems, upon systems, upon systems and grinds, upon grinds, upon grinds.... extremely tiresome and troublesome to WOW.

[Kalisandra]

Game is hard and world is empty, content is gated, crafting is not good, cuz ppl boost for gold and blizzard sell gold = designed to be horrible for players. Blizz shud increase sub cost to $20-25 and stop deception design for profits, i can design this game better than them alone. Rep farms are useless. Gn.

You do realise that the gold Blizzard sells is bought from other players, right? What the system actually does is let a player pay Blizzard real money to be allowed to sell their game time to another player for in-game gold. For this privilege Blizzard charges an extra five bucks over the standard fee for a month. The token system does not add gold into the server economy, and you're not actually buying the gold from Blizzard either.

[VinceVega]

First of all, I didn't want to make any argument. I made my statement. You are the 1 who wants to argue and prolong this meaningless "conversation".

About the rest- I really cba to reply.

You and I have very, VERY different views. And seems 1 of us agrees with vast majority of players who find all those systems, upon systems, upon systems and grinds, upon grinds, upon grinds.... extremely tiresome and troublesome to WOW.

But you want to go the extreme other way where there is absolutly nothing to do in terms of progression with your char expect to tiers of items?
That is too much.
ALso yes. You cannot complain, that borrowed power is bad but advocate tier sets. Which are Borrowed power on a even smaller timescale.

I agree, that there is a bit much right now in terms of borrowed stuff. But at least it is with us the whole expansion.

Storywise i think wow is doing fine tbh. And i actually think all of your points have all allready been adressed ingame and if not it does not have to. Lei-Shen for example. We do not know what happend to him after his death. He could be like a ich with a phylactery. Or not. We simply don't know. And i rather keep it that way, becuase how the hell would our character find that out? Given that we killed him again. We don't need to know everything and not knowing somthing does not mean it is violating any lore.

[Soon-TM]

This is the EXACT same shit people said about MoP when it was current...

And yet MoP story is far, FAR more coherent than the SL drivel.

- - - Updated - - -

Blizzard charges an extra five bucks over the standard fee for a month.

That's the main point of tokens, my dude...

[Kalisandra]

That's the main point of tokens, my dude...

Oh, I know exactly what they're for. They let me convert gold into game time and a whale pays to conversion fee for me.

[Pheraz]

If there would be actual content for casuals. Torghast is just not enough