View Poll Results: Do Tanks Hold Too Much Weight in M+?

Voters
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  • Yes

    72 52.17%
  • No

    66 47.83%
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  1. #101
    The affix design of 8.3 and 9.0 is what really makes it too much. Managing Portal Routes and Prideful was 100% the tanks job and it requires A LOT more knowledge and skill than all other roles in m+.
    It should not be this way, not even close

  2. #102
    Honestly, no. I think the route thing is pretty stressful. The dungeons should be more straight forward like Theater of pain. Choose the order in which you do the wings rather than pick whatever groups and require preparation ahead of time to know how much % each mob gives. It's a real pain. I'd tank more if not for that. Even though i have addons to tell me these things, it is annoying that they are necessary. It's a lot of pressure when you just want to relax and have some fun with a mythic+ run.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    In my experience the timer is less of a threat than people make it out to be. You absolutely can use CC on pulls and still make the timer, it's always faster AND easier than dying and running back. My only timer failed wipes were due to people so blinded by the timer they made avoidable mistakes.

    If the trash pack is hard, CC it. CC multiple of it if you need to. The difference is staggering. Think of it like juggling, and you're putting down 2 of the balls.

    Sincerely, a tank.
    At what level?
    The desperate last chance response of a person who is losing an argument on the forums:

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    You DO realize that even if every user ever on these forums agreed with you, something even you would admit is impossible, that would not be 0.0001% of the player base, right? But sure, enjoy your echo chamber if you want.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    At what level?
    Pretty low TBH but I don't see why the m+ level would make that suddenly worse advice. We were struggling, it helped.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daevelian View Post
    So this is how far the Lore forum has fallen? Eesh.
    I take it back, BfA is not the lowest the games lore could have gone, this thread proves that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    Pretty low TBH but I don't see why the m+ level would make that suddenly worse advice. We were struggling, it helped.
    Once you get to much higher levels the timer is too tight to take your time like that. There may be specific pulls where it is valuable but those are very few - as you get higher the priority shifts to “how can we pull more”. It’s an evolution that happens naturally as you go up in key and people get more comfortable with mechanics.

    If you’re struggling with damage intake on low keys, the issue is almost certainly interrupts. It takes time and familiarity to fix that. When you get to higher keys people generally know what to do and pugs can usually ad hoc coordinate enough that the most important stuff is interrupted.

    I’m currently around 1500 and I feel like I pull pretty big, but when I end up with a 2k io person they invariably complain that I’m not pulling enough!
    The desperate last chance response of a person who is losing an argument on the forums:

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    You DO realize that even if every user ever on these forums agreed with you, something even you would admit is impossible, that would not be 0.0001% of the player base, right? But sure, enjoy your echo chamber if you want.

  6. #106
    Too much burden and too much importance, combined with the atrocious kite tanking. The tanks need to perform perfectly from start to end or the run fails at almost all key levels. A hiccup in the dps or even the healers is manageable, but a tank hiccup fails the timer and in pugs it usually means the run ends.

    But the question in the title is the exact opposite of the question in the poll. I voted wrongly because of that.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Bagrod View Post
    Haha, I know this is slightly derailing the topic.

    But as someone who tried to heal as Shaman and switched to elemental DPS, this issues annoys me way more then the tank issue we discuss currently

    I want to play a healer because I want to heal things. The last thing I want to do is to add some DPS (hence, I do not play healer anymore), since I found this kind of back and foruth totally annoying in challenging content. That kind of default attitude, that a healer must also contribute a relevant amount of DPS also stopped me from healing with my Pala in BFA. I absolutely hated this kind of holy shock Heal/DPS Gameplay that came along with the "meta" build that everybody seemed to be expecting.
    This is exacerbated in pugs. Both healer and tank are under increased pressure in a pug, too. In a pug, the burden from lack of coordination typically falls on those two roles, and this can be very frustrating when dps don't recognize that real challenge and expect you to play the way you'd play in a coordinated group. It's hard to dps as a healer when you don't know when the damage is going to spike, so it's hard to dps in a pug. Similarly, it's hard to pull big when you don't know if the shammy's going to help you out with an elemental or stun, etc.

    But I've been in a lot of groups with dps who don't get that and just complain about the healer dps or the tank not mega pulling when the dps doesn't really know why that's happening.
    The desperate last chance response of a person who is losing an argument on the forums:

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    You DO realize that even if every user ever on these forums agreed with you, something even you would admit is impossible, that would not be 0.0001% of the player base, right? But sure, enjoy your echo chamber if you want.

  8. #108
    The way you invert the question between title and poll is EXTRMELY disingenuous, and I suspect many people have voted the opposite of what they think they have. If you reset the poll, and actually showed some consistency in the thread vs poll, the results would be very different. Sorry but this entire poll should be completely ignored due to the way it is presented.

    I know multiple people who answered "NO" only to read one of the first replies, go back and re-read the poll question, and realize that the question is actually the OPPOSITE of the thread title.

    For those who are confused, the thread title asks "is it good design" and the actual poll question asks "is it bad design".
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Malania View Post
    DPS's the target. The tank, tanks it. You're offering additional damage but you aren't the damage dealer as the tank... I would think that would be kind of obvious?
    Guess you only play with shit tanks. Still, both does DPS. Isn't that kind of obvious?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    Hit Hero/Lust/Warp.
    I do that with drums if there's no class available for it.
    But thanks for proving my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pebbleton View Post
    Feign Death
    Thanks for proving my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    treants...
    Thanks for proving my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by ONCHEhap View Post
    Pull packs the tank and healer aren't ready for.
    You got me here hahah :P
    Last edited by tomten; 2021-05-12 at 02:55 AM.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    I tanked for a good part of BfA before switching to healing due to tanking being so stressful, I know it is.

    I don’t wanna watch hours of videos and read tons of guides and practice all the routes for every difficulty level and/or affixes and/or party composition. I just want to plug and play. That’s what games are meant for.

    I agree being a good dps is really difficult, though (especially melee these days) but it does not require the amount of side study of a tank, imho.
    This thank you! I think you kind of nailed it for me. I've watched hours of tank videos mostly Quazii's to learn the routes and all the tricks of each mob during Shadowlands. I'd pretty much watch one prior to delving into a key I intended to climb. It was Darkmech's videos during BFA. While I enjoy the improvements I make becoming a more reliable tank....I never did this level of homework as a DPS or a healer. Sure I'd watch a vid or two and read some guides on how to optimize things, but full dungeon runs? Never.

    Tanks once again have always held a bit more responsibility, but it's far more than ever now.

    I do apologize about the pole I literally made this thread as a bit of rant as I was literally just watching one of Quazii's videos for Plaguefall to learn the new route. I got into a 15 pug with a group that was 2200ish each. Perfect for me to test things out! I looked opened up MDT looked out how much the route deviated from what I've been doing so far and I just left group via anxiety and thought see if other tanks are feeling similar.
    Last edited by Matthias; 2021-05-12 at 02:58 AM.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Obviously it’s a risk/reward tradeoff. You want to increase dps as much as possible but increasing dps usually means greater risk of death so you want to optimize. A death is often so punishing and the extra dps is usually so minimal that outside of very top end many tanks will be fairly cautious. Me getting in 2 extra swipes at the cost of another stack of bleed against the dogs in HOA becomes a bad tradeoff fairly quickly.

    It’s not an absolute, it’s a risk reward tradeoff that you try to optimize for your level.
    For resource classes, playing 100% optimally, such as protection paladin, will net you both the highest dps and highest survivability, by design. And this is true for most, if not all tank classes... You have to go out of your way to choose dps trinkets, gems, enchants and to a degree stat selection on gear. But even that you should optimize, if you never need a survivability talent or trinket, change for offensive and do even more dps..

  12. #112
    It sucks because tanks are players too, and they need ways to express mastery and skill like dps without their death resulting in an insta-wipe for everyone else.

    In modern day this is kinda solved with tanks having extra lives with certain abilities like Ardent Defender or Purgatory, and the Veng variant.

    But nowadays the extra life system seems to just be another CD expected to be burned rather than a real safety net that lets tanks fail while being able to try again like dps might when they fail.

    It's almost like tanks need... another set of free lives per life they have, to equal how many dps and the healer there is or something. But maybe that'd be silly...?

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by tomten View Post
    For resource classes, playing 100% optimally, such as protection paladin, will net you both the highest dps and highest survivability, by design. And this is true for most, if not all tank classes... You have to go out of your way to choose dps trinkets, gems, enchants and to a degree stat selection on gear. But even that you should optimize, if you never need a survivability talent or trinket, change for offensive and do even more dps..
    I find most of this hard to believe. First, when m+ involves as much kiting as it does, and kiting increases survivability, then it's not true that playing optimally will net highest dps because you have to kite (this may not be true for demon hunters). And very basically, more survivability can mean less kiting and more dps.

    Then, you're talking about m+ tanks out there who never need a survivability trinket. If that's true then they're not pulling enough - you're not describing a real case.

    It's always a tradeoff between survivability and dps. If you take off the tank trinket that has a 60k absorb (blood spattered scale) then maybe you do .2k more dps but you can't pull an extra pack so it's not worth it. The benefit of pulling extra is huge, the benefit of a bit more tank dps is small.

    I think you're talking about raiding, not m+. And even then, it's certainly not true that playing 100% offensively is also best defensively for all tanks. I play guardian, and playing 100% offensively would mean never using ironfur or frenzied regen. Warriors have abilities that use rage either offensively or defensively. I'm sure other tanks have the same.

    So no, I don't agree with anything you said.
    Last edited by Scrod; 2021-05-12 at 03:36 AM.
    The desperate last chance response of a person who is losing an argument on the forums:

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    You DO realize that even if every user ever on these forums agreed with you, something even you would admit is impossible, that would not be 0.0001% of the player base, right? But sure, enjoy your echo chamber if you want.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomten View Post
    Thanks for proving my point.
    Boy chill, I don't even know what your point was. I just wanted to be funny

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    I find most of this hard to believe. First, when m+ involves as much kiting as it does, and kiting increases survivability, then it's not true that playing optimally will net highest dps because you have to kite (this may not be true for demon hunters). And very basically, more survivability can mean less kiting and more dps.

    Then, you're talking about m+ tanks out there who never need a survivability trinket. If that's true then they're not pulling enough - you're not describing a real case.

    It's always a tradeoff between survivability and dps. If you take off the tank trinket that has a 60k absorb (blood spattered scale) then maybe you do .2k more dps but you can't pull an extra pack so it's not worth it. The benefit of pulling extra is huge, the benefit of a bit more tank dps is small.

    I think you're talking about raiding, not m+. And even then, it's certainly not true that playing 100% offensively is also best defensively for all tanks. I play guardian, and playing 100% offensively would mean never using ironfur or frenzied regen. Warriors have abilities that use rage either offensively or defensively. I'm sure other tanks have the same.

    So no, I don't agree with anything you said.
    Do you always kite 100%, no? What a stupid argument.
    Ask any pro tank and they'll tell you, if you need for example splintered alar to stay alive? You've played wrong to begin with. Same goes for talents like final stand and the likes. Just because its not YOUR case doesn't mean its not real lol...

    Last time i checked, you have 2 trinket slots? scale also does dps. And you talk about real cases, yet think pulling an extra pack just because you have scales is a a good idea and nothing that will wipe most pugs? *rolleyes*

    I don't play all tanks thats why I referenced "most".
    You can switch it around, playing the most defensively will give me the most dps, its just wording on your part.
    And then its true for most tanks, even warriors, who shouldn't be spending rage on revenge.

    You don't have to agree with anything when you lack basic understanding bro

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by tomten View Post
    Do you always kite 100%, no? What a stupid argument.
    Ask any pro tank and they'll tell you, if you need for example splintered alar to stay alive? You've played wrong to begin with. Same goes for talents like final stand and the likes. Just because its not YOUR case doesn't mean its not real lol...

    Last time i checked, you have 2 trinket slots? scale also does dps. And you talk about real cases, yet think pulling an extra pack just because you have scales is a a good idea and nothing that will wipe most pugs? *rolleyes*

    I don't play all tanks thats why I referenced "most".
    You can switch it around, playing the most defensively will give me the most dps, its just wording on your part.
    And then its true for most tanks, even warriors, who shouldn't be spending rage on revenge.

    You don't have to agree with anything when you lack basic understanding bro
    Watch the mdi. Tanks are wearing the exact trinket you mentioned, and using the cheat death survivability bonus it gives them to pull more. The dh tanks also utilize their cheat death as well. That’s good play, not a problem. On virtually every single bis m+ Bis trinket list you’ll find scale and alar because of their survivability benefits. Virtually no one is wearing dps trinks because it’s a bad tradeoff right now.

    I never said you kite 100%. But you do kite because it’s a survivability increase, particularly with something like necrotic. Your original statement was that for most tanks, doing max dps also means max survivability. That’s just incorrect - kiting increases survivability and lowers dps.

    On using scale to pull extra - sure you can. Not always but depends on context. For example, in HOA I typically use it on the second pull when I pull the little guys who just melee me and don’t hit anyone else. Makes it easier to pull that pack, which doesn’t affect the rest of the group’s health at all. So yes, that is a good idea. Not sure how you ended arguing that it’s not.
    Last edited by Scrod; 2021-05-12 at 03:12 PM.
    The desperate last chance response of a person who is losing an argument on the forums:

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    You DO realize that even if every user ever on these forums agreed with you, something even you would admit is impossible, that would not be 0.0001% of the player base, right? But sure, enjoy your echo chamber if you want.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by tomten View Post
    Every single thing a DPS does, the tank has todo on top of everything else regarding the tank role.
    I challenge you and everyone in this thread, name something unique only a dps does, that a tank also does not do.
    Necrotic Wake:
    1. Blightbone's Heaving Retch targets DPS but not the tank in almost all situations.
    2. Surgeon Stitchflesh abominations target anyone else but the tank in almost all situations.
    3. Surgeon Stitchflesh Morbid Fixation favors targeting DPS over tanks.
    4. Nalthor's Dark Exile does not ever target the tank.

    Mist of Tirna Scithe
    1. Mistcaller Freeze Tag targets DPS or healer in almost all situations

    Halls of Atonement
    1. Echelon Stone Shattering Leap targets DPS in almost all situations
    2. High Adjudicater Aleez Ghastly Parishioner targets DPS or healer in almost all situations
    3. Lord Chamberlain's Telekinetic Toss targets DPS or healer in almost all situations

    De Other Side
    1. Mueh'zala's Cosmic Artifice targets DPS or healer in almost all situations

    Sanguine Depths
    1. Kryxis the Voracious' Juggernaut Rush targets DPS or healer in almost all situations
    2. Executor Tarvold's Castigate targets DPS in almost all situations
    3. General Kaal's Wicked Rush targets DPS or healer in almost all situations

    Spires of Ascension
    1. Kin-Tara's Charged Spear targets DPS or healer in almost all situations
    2. Ventunax's Dark Stride targets DPS or healer in almost all situations
    3. Oryphrion's Purifying Blast targets DPS or healer in almost all situations

    Theater of Pain
    1. Xav the Unfallen's Blood and Glory targets 2 DPS in almost all situations
    2. Kul'Tharok's Draw Soul targets 2 DPS in almost all situations

    These are but a few examples of the mechanics that tanks don't have to deal with but DPS or healers do, and these are just from the dungeons. Not even including Castle Nathria where, from my experience, a good chunk of the bosses boil down to a tank and spank where you occasionally run away for 5 seconds and taunt swap every so often while the DPS all run around like chickens with their heads cut off.
    Last edited by Darsyek; 2021-05-14 at 11:29 PM. Reason: Corrections

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsyek View Post
    SNIP
    That wasn't the point. Tanks do their mechanics, dps do their mechanics.

  19. #119
    The reason for this is entirely Prideful.

    Prideful is very punishing to fuck up.
    Unlike Reaping during 8.1, which was just a big AoE fuckfest, Prideful requires you to pop it at the best time possible because not only does the Pride kill you (unlike reaping that you could just AoE down in 2 seconds) it also gives you a buff that is sometimes straight up mandatory for some pulls.

    This combined with the fact that dungeons have a much more linear design (Prideful wouldn't be much of an issue in Atal'dazar or Freehold type dungeons) and suddenly tanks are expected to manage all of this because they do the pulls and they have to call skips for 4 other people who might not even have invis pots in the first place.

    I really hope they won't do another % based affix again.

    If Blizz wants us to do tactical skips in M+ they should offer more open dungeons like Freehold with multiple paths to take so we can decide for ourselves.
    Not force us down a linear hallway micro managing trash %.

  20. #120
    They do hold too much weight, but only because of how pride works. If you didn't have to time percentages for each bossfight or "big pull", then having a janky route wouldn't be as punishing as it is today.
    Hopefully our next seasonal affix will be less punishing to the tank.

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