Is The Weight Tanks Hold in M+ Good Design?

[Matthias]

Your M+ Group lives and dies by your tank. Frankly trying to get to 20+ on all dungeons just burned me out and I've been sitting on 18s with barely a will to log on. The tank needs to set the pace of the run, establish the route....fix the route when someone screws it up, keep himself alive all while optimizing his own damage to make the run go quicker and not lose aggro, while establishing positioning. You're also a huge source of crowd control.

I played mostly my healer in BFA, and sure while it's a thankless role, all I really had to do was sit back and not die, naturally when you get to higher keys players get better at avoiding damage. Hell there have been times I'd die as a healer on Tyranical bosses at 50% and we(they) still manage to pull it off.

Healer dies you pinch your butt cheeks and avoid damage till he comes back. DPS dies you roll your eyes and keep it moving knowing some time needs to be made up. Tank dies shit automatically hits the fan.

My memory could be distorted but I felt like Legion wasn't like this, granted this is before Raiderio so people were less hardcore, once you got your Keystone Master people didn't care much about timing keys. But in Legion the threat multiplier was insane so losing aggro was not a thing. You had to be extremely careless to die as a tank, I don't recall as many tank buster abilities and most trash you could just AoE stun down and their abilitis weren't very interesting. Aside from a select few mobs per dungeon, none were very dangerous.

Overall even though tanking has always been a critical role, I felt that a bad tank could be carried almost as easily as bad DPS in Legion if you could just stun and killing everything before the tank got themselves killed.

With that said Legion tanking kind of just felt like you were just DPS melee that stood in front of mobs opposed to behind them. Tanking was far more engaging in BFA and now Shadowlands. I'll dare even say I kind of enoyed the kite meta, the emphasis on keeping your self alive while maintaining control of mobs. Utilizing your CC to prevent deadly abilities and many mobs can't simply be stunned any more, so you have to play around such enemies.

I think my biggest beef is simply needing to be the guy that knows the route, and because M+ is timed it's not like you can take a breathe and ask your teammates for directions. Some of my more prefered dungeons to run are the ones where the route is damn near impossible to screw up like Theater of Pain. In Legion the routes were freaking obvious, if you could walk around a mob....you did, and it's not like Prideful was a thing.

I'll admit I always get anxiety when I run Plaguefall, it's supposed to be one of the easier Dungeons, but I know my route is outdated, so after all the work I put in to originally learn a route initially starting at key 10+ to key 18+ I need to backtrack to about a 15+ to memorize a new route.

Almost feel like just swapping to my healer sitting back and enjoying the ride.

[Rhoe]

I think your post has the bad design of asking one question in the title and the opposite one in the poll question, so now you can't be sure which question people are answering when they pick yes or no.

But on topic, yes, I think this design is asking too much from tanks. I really enjoy facetanking as a bear, and the need for me to use all my utility and plan pulls around defensive/offensive CDs is fine and part of what makes it fun. But having to keep multiple routes in my head for the same dungeon due to wanting prides at different times for tyrannical and fortified (and sometimes skipping them completely), and also some differences for inspired and sometimes which abilities are present for cc/skips... it's too much.

It's funny you say you like ToP because it's hard to fuck up, but I actually managed to do just that last night. Just a +14 luckily, but we had an undergeared healer, so getting prides for hard packs and bosses would've been very beneficial. Yet I've changed around my route for it so many times lately that I completely mixed up two routes and didn't get pride for the hardest pack and the hardest to heal boss.

It feels absurd having to repeatedly open MDT to check what I'm supposed to pull this week, because if I accidentally pull 2 mobs at the wrong time, suddenly the pride will be off and if it's NW, it can't even be completed over the timer. I feel like I need a cybernetic implant for this shit.

[garicasha]

It would be nice if the game had more built-in tools to deal with Prideful.

Prideful really makes the routes important and in some cases nonsensical.

And tanks have always been important, but although common I see no inherent reason a dps or healer couldn’t control the route just by marking with skulls.

[Raisei]

Tanks have been thoroughly shafted in M+ this expansion. On top of the stuff you point out they had to deal with a massive miss-tuning of damage, so that they constantly had to run away from mobs or got vaporized. Actually face tanking a group of mobs was nearly impossible and even after two rounds of adjustments this still remains a problem for those classes that weren't granted super buffs to compensate.

You are right in that the weight of Tanks is huge and that is connected to this problem. The mob damage is ridiculously high. If even classes meant to deal with damage can only survive by running away then Healers and DPS can only get murdered. If a dps grabs aggro (because Tank has to run away) they die in at most 2 hits.

The solution for boss problems is reducing mob damage, so even a non-tank can take a few hits while the dead Tank respawns, but this brings a new issue. If mob damage is low enough for a non-tank to survive the actual Tanks won't have any challenge at all anymore.

I dunno. Something needs to be done with the system, but I am not sure what. Fact is that Tanking has lost it's fun this expansion. If I do my stuff right I should be a master of defense, protecting allies from the mobs, but instead I am a chicken, running away at the first sign of trouble.

I have no idea who in the Dev team decided this was a fun playstyle, but they were dead wrong.

[Malania]

The only "weight" the tank holds is the pace set. Which is shared by how fast the DPS can clear it. Tanking a hard pack isn't any harder than healing a hard pack in m+. Certain affixes may require kiting which is hardly a new issue. I'm not sure exactly what your issue is.

[Bagrod]

I think this is one of the fundamental misunderstandingds of M+

Yes, the Tank might have the most "obvious" weight to carry. If he mispulls / paces the Dungeon wrong, you can directly see it in wipes / loss of time / unfortunate Prides.

However, the success of a dungeon is as much based on the job the DPS does, as the tanks jobs. They have to know which Mob to focus when, they have to manage there interrupts and maybe support with kiting depending on the affixed situation.

Unfortunately, a lot of DPS only see maximum DPS as their job and don't care about the rest.

To be honest, as a Tankplayer and DPS play (Prot Warri & Ele Shami) I have the impression that more dungeon fails were caused by unfit DPS players, then by the tank. Often if the tank dies in high keys, it is the DPS fault, since noone interupted the spell when they needed to.Again unfortunately, most DPS will not have this epiphany, but will blame a bad tank/heal for their own misplay.

This happens across all difficulties to be honest. Just yesterday I went into a +12 NW run, with my Shami. There was a DH with us as a DPS, who was on top of the Dammeter together with me. However, I had 30+ interupts during the run, he had 5. Obviously we did not make it in time, since the healer had too much trouble to keep the tank alive with all the casts that went through.

[msdos]

When people started running the MDungeon Tools and expecting the tank to know every path I quit tanking dungeons over night and never looked back.

Some people are okay with a game where you have to DL 15 addons just to be able to feel comfortable in game and not like a decapitated rooster or a persecuted gamurr (I need my addon just to have QoL bags, I need my UI frame addon just to not want to vomit, I need my threat plate addon just to be able to see what's going on, I need my dps meter, I need my buff raid frame thingy dingie bobber, I need my weakauras and 30 weak aura strings just to play my class, I need my ArenaMate, I need)

I'd be surprised if retail WoW has any tanks left who are actually good after Shadowlands. People are getting seriously tired of tedious gaming, what I mean by that: tired of gaming that has a bunch of barriers you have to go through before you can actually start feeling satisfaction, the key word here is "satisfaction". Anything other than that is a failure, period.

[Malania]

I think this is one of the fundamental misunderstandingds of M+

Yes, the Tank might have the most "obvious" weight to carry. If he mispulls / paces the Dungeon wrong, you can directly see it in wipes / loss of time / unfortunate Prides.

However, the success of a dungeon is as much based on the job the DPS does, as the tanks jobs. They have to know which Mob to focus when, they have to manage there interrupts and maybe support with kiting depending on the affixed situation.

Unfortunately, a lot of DPS only see maximum DPS as their job and don't care about the rest.

To be honest, as a Tankplayer and DPS play (Prot Warri & Ele Shami) I have the impression that more dungeon fails were caused by unfit DPS players, then by the tank. Often if the tank dies in high keys, it is the DPS fault, since noone interupted the spell when they needed to.Again unfortunately, most DPS will not have this epiphany, but will blame a bad tank/heal for their own misplay.

This happens across all difficulties to be honest. Just yesterday I went into a +12 NW run, with my Shami. There was a DH with us as a DPS, who was on top of the Dammeter together with me. However, I had 30+ interupts during the run, he had 5. Obviously we did not make it in time, since the healer had too much trouble to keep the tank alive with all the casts that went through.

Agreed, a group shares responsibility in a m+. The only thing the tank is directly responsible for is when the next pack is pulled if you're chain pulling.

[Bagrod]

When people started running the MDungeon Tools and expecting the tank to know every path I quit tanking dungeons over night and never looked back.

Well, as a tank I have to disagree.

It is a bit annoying to begin with, but these Addons help me more then they do damage. To be honest I am lacking the motivation to figure out the perfect route for all affixes and all dungeons by myself. As a tank it is a lot easier to just look at the map during the run and exactly know where to go.

I will never follow the number of pulls though, since those huge pulls are based on Premade Grps that communicate well and not on complete PUGs. But tanking became a lot more fun, after I just used that addon.

[Malania]

When people started running the MDungeon Tools and expecting the tank to know every path I quit tanking dungeons over night and never looked back.

Some people are okay with a game where you have to DL 15 addons just to be able to feel comfortable in game and not like a decapitated rooster or a persecuted gamurr (I need my addon just to have QoL bags, I need my UI frame addon just to not want to vomit, I need my threat plate addon just to be able to see what's going on, I need my dps meter, I need my buff raid frame thingy dingie bobber, I need my weakauras and 30 weak aura strings just to play my class, I need my ArenaMate, I need)

I'd be surprised if retail WoW has any tanks left who are actually good after Shadowlands. People are getting seriously tired of tedious gaming, what I mean by that: tired of gaming that has a bunch of barriers you have to go through before you can actually start feeling satisfaction, the key word here is "satisfaction". Anything other than that is a failure, period.

Heh, I've been playing SL since launch and I've only just downloaded recount and DBM like 4 days ago. I've tanked, DPS'd and healed without any addons since I reinstalled the game. I'm not even sure why I bothered with them now. I was curious how my Hunter's DPS was in comparison I guess. Not sure why I got DBM. Probably felt like I should at least make a minimal effort on my part for assists but a run is doable without anything in m+. Didn't even know the mythic dungeon tools addon existed until I've just seen it now.

[msdos]

Well, as a tank I have to disagree.

It is a bit annoying to begin with, but these Addons help me more then they do damage. To be honest I am lacking the motivation to figure out the perfect route for all affixes and all dungeons by myself. As a tank it is a lot easier to just look at the map during the run and exactly know where to go.

I will never follow the number of pulls though, since those huge pulls are based on Premade Grps that communicate well and not on complete PUGs. But tanking became a lot more fun, after I just used that addon.

People's expectations were just one reason, over all lack of satisfaction was another. Essentially I'm just a DPS with defensive cooldowns, it's 2 different mindsets. I don't really ever want to have to care about my DPS when I choose the tank role, that was another reason, might as well just play DPS, especially as a Blood tank.

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Heh, I've been playing SL since launch and I've only just downloaded recount and DBM like 4 days ago. I've tanked, DPS'd and healed without any addons since I reinstalled the game. I'm not even sure why I bothered with them now. I was curious how my Hunter's DPS was in comparison I guess. Not sure why I got DBM. Probably felt like I should at least make a minimal effort on my part for assists but a run is doable without anything in m+. Didn't even know the mythic dungeon tools addon existed until I've just seen it now.

DBM is garbo, WeakAuras has basically replaced it. Also Method Dungeon Tools was replaced by something else but I forgot the name as I don't care. The addon "meta" (everything is a meta now) is one of the main contributors to what makes this game so obnoxious.

[Delever]

When people started running the MDungeon Tools and expecting the tank to know every path I quit tanking dungeons over night and never looked back.

Some people are okay with a game where you have to DL 15 addons just to be able to feel comfortable in game and not like a decapitated rooster or a persecuted gamurr (I need my addon just to have QoL bags, I need my UI frame addon just to not want to vomit, I need my threat plate addon just to be able to see what's going on, I need my dps meter, I need my buff raid frame thingy dingie bobber, I need my weakauras and 30 weak aura strings just to play my class, I need my ArenaMate, I need)

I'd be surprised if retail WoW has any tanks left who are actually good after Shadowlands. People are getting seriously tired of tedious gaming, what I mean by that: tired of gaming that has a bunch of barriers you have to go through before you can actually start feeling satisfaction, the key word here is "satisfaction". Anything other than that is a failure, period.

Couldnt have said it better. I ve been playing this game for many years and at a pretty good level most of the time. About 8 out of the 10 years I ve played, I ve been playing as a tank. Quit tanking first time in shadowlands because of the sheer anxiety M+ was causing me. Literally the SLIGHTEST fuckup would cause a cascading amount of negative effects on the run.
Oh you accidentally pulled one extra mob? Too bad now prideful is scuffed.
Oh prideful is scuffed? Run is fucked now.
Oh dps are not interupting well? Well you will def die at some point due to dmg spikes.
Put on top of that the kite meta and having to remember one trillion routes for every affix and it just becomes too much when I come back from 10 hours of lab work and paper writting and want to hop on to do 1-2 keys before bed.

And the worst part is that fuckups in M+ before used to be salvageable by good players. Prideful makes it insanely hard to salvage even small fuck ups especially if you re tanking 15-20s. And yes I am aware the higher you go the less fuck ups you are allowed but pulling 1 extra mob should not mean the end of your run becuase prideful is now scuffed forever.

[Malania]

People's expectations were just one reason, over all lack of satisfaction was another. Essentially I'm just a DPS with defensive cooldowns, it's 2 different mindsets. I don't really ever want to have to care about my DPS when I choose the tank role, that was another reason, might as well just play DPS, especially as a Blood tank.

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DBM is garbo, WeakAuras has basically replaced it. Also Method Dungeon Tools was replaced by something else but I forgot the name as I don't care. The addon "meta" (everything is a meta now) is one of the main contributors to what makes this game so obnoxious.

I've used weak aura's in the past but really didn't feel it was required for my current state of playing. As far as a timer goes, any addon with a countdown is sufficient for me. Like you said, no interest in the meta.

[msdos]

You can probably get away with no weakauras as a tank, but it's still uncomfortable to have to stare at the top right corner of the screen to see your buffs.

As a dps, such as Unholy, there is no way you're dpsing without weak auras.

[erifwodahs]

Unfortunately, a lot of DPS only see maximum DPS as their job and don't care about the rest.

To be honest, as a Tankplayer and DPS play (Prot Warri & Ele Shami) I have the impression that more dungeon fails were caused by unfit DPS players, then by the tank. Often if the tank dies in high keys, it is the DPS fault, since noone interupted the spell when they needed to.Again unfortunately, most DPS will not have this epiphany, but will blame a bad tank/heal for their own misplay.

Tanking sucks in SL big time as you get slapped like a bitch and feel powerless out of CDs in high keys but this is truth. I have many times said that doing 19s is easier than doing 15s because people know what to kill. Some "impossible" pulls where in a pug you burn your CDs like paper, are made so much easier by dps who know what to do and when to press their non-dps buttons

[enigma77]

Tank design is mostly good (tank should do more damage though) , but Prideful is awful. The reason being that you have to memorize too many routes and it's annoying to be honest. It's super punishing if you pull the wrong packs or just too many and the Pride spawns in an awkward spot. Big oversight on behalf of Blizzard imo.

[Mystikal]

A lot of the non-tank replies in here are glossing over the requirement for the tank to know the myriad routes for each dungeon and each set of affixes, where applicable. I just switched to tanking in BfA, and it was a lot easier then when the route was either up to +9 or +10 and over for the seasonal affix. In SL, the route can change weekly, needing you to memorise a whole extra bunch of routes, on top of everything else you're supposed to do.

I find it funny that a lot of people say "it's a team effort", and yet universally, the tank must know the routes. I think there'd be a lot more tanks if the dps or healers also took responsibility for the routes.

[kamuimac]

Your M+ Group lives and dies by your tank. Frankly trying to get to 20+ on all dungeons just burned me out and I've been sitting on 18s with barely a will to log on. The tank needs to set the pace of the run, establish the route....fix the route when someone screws it up, keep himself alive all while optimizing his own damage to make the run go quicker and not lose aggro, while establishing positioning. You're also a huge source of crowd control.

I played mostly my healer in BFA, and sure while it's a thankless role, all I really had to do was sit back and not die, naturally when you get to higher keys players get better at avoiding damage. Hell there have been times I'd die as a healer on Tyranical bosses at 50% and we(they) still manage to pull it off.

Healer dies you pinch your butt cheeks and avoid damage till he comes back. DPS dies you roll your eyes and keep it moving knowing some time needs to be made up. Tank dies shit automatically hits the fan.

My memory could be distorted but I felt like Legion wasn't like this, granted this is before Raiderio so people were less hardcore, once you got your Keystone Master people didn't care much about timing keys. But in Legion the threat multiplier was insane so losing aggro was not a thing. You had to be extremely careless to die as a tank, I don't recall as many tank buster abilities and most trash you could just AoE stun down and their abilitis weren't very interesting. Aside from a select few mobs per dungeon, none were very dangerous.

Overall even though tanking has always been a critical role, I felt that a bad tank could be carried almost as easily as bad DPS in Legion if you could just stun and killing everything before the tank got themselves killed.

With that said Legion tanking kind of just felt like you were just DPS melee that stood in front of mobs opposed to behind them. Tanking was far more engaging in BFA and now Shadowlands. I'll dare even say I kind of enoyed the kite meta, the emphasis on keeping your self alive while maintaining control of mobs. Utilizing your CC to prevent deadly abilities and many mobs can't simply be stunned any more, so you have to play around such enemies.

I think my biggest beef is simply needing to be the guy that knows the route, and because M+ is timed it's not like you can take a breathe and ask your teammates for directions. Some of my more prefered dungeons to run are the ones where the route is damn near impossible to screw up like Theater of Pain. In Legion the routes were freaking obvious, if you could walk around a mob....you did, and it's not like Prideful was a thing.

I'll admit I always get anxiety when I run Plaguefall, it's supposed to be one of the easier Dungeons, but I know my route is outdated, so after all the work I put in to originally learn a route initially starting at key 10+ to key 18+ I need to backtrack to about a 15+ to memorize a new route.

Almost feel like just swapping to my healer sitting back and enjoying the ride.

i honestly wonder what you mean about establishing a rout when all of you are using dratnos guides each week . and when someone deviates even by 1 mob all hell breaks loose.

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Tank design is mostly good (tank should do more damage though) , but Prideful is awful. The reason being that you have to memorize too many routes and it's annoying to be honest. It's super punishing if you pull the wrong packs or just too many and the Pride spawns in an awkward spot. Big oversight on behalf of Blizzard imo.

pridefull is amazing when used correcly - hnestly imo it should be basic affix on +2 not on +10

if people have problem with counting to 20 and routes in this point of tier then .... its their problem .

[Hyperaffe]

Oh great, i just voted the wrong thing, literally the opposite question in poll and thread

[erifwodahs]

I find it funny that a lot of people say "it's a team effort", and yet universally, the tank must know the routes. I think there'd be a lot more tanks if the dps or healers also took responsibility for the routes.

I guess there would be more tanks, but it's still team effort. Some pulls I do are impossible without support of my team. As a tank I have to be aware of routes, my cds and healer/dps cds at all times, but I rely on them to press the non-dps buttons to save my ass too when I am out of CDs and they certainly must know what to interrupt too.
My gripe with tanking is how little damage we do and how squishy we are now. It's just not that fun