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  1. #121
    Just wondering, but where did you guys find all these pictures of the illustrations? It hasn't come out yet has it?

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    I will never understand why Vereesa continues to hang onto Sylvanas... after Sylvanas tried to kill her children and raise them as undead, not to mention having become a genocidal maniac. That's a relationship dealbreaker. No amount of "but, uh, she's my family!" can salvage that.
    Sylvanas never wanted to kill Galadin or Giramar; she even offered to make them feel welcome in the Undercity, as they were her closest kin, but deep down inside, didn't want them to join Vereesa, knowing her nephews would not belong with the Undercity - or with their aunt. Galadin is very anti-Sylvanas and anti-Horde, while Giramar is much more sympathetic to her - he wants them all to be reunited as one big, happy family eventually.

    As for the concept of "soul fragmentation" - it is very interesting AND very disappointing at the same time...it depends on how they implement this complicated concept, and to precisely what extent. Even some beliefs which believe in the existence of a soul in real life actually argue that the soul can seriously fragment after someone suffers major lasting traumas throughout their life - which is why some people who have been hurt more deeply than others seem more "damaged" or incomplete than eithers, from their perspective.

    In Before the Storm:

    Sylvanas did not much care for goblins. Although her own sense of honor was somewhat fluid, she could appreciate honor in others. It was, like many things, an echo of something she once had heard.

    Except for those pandaren who had chosen to ally with the Horde, Sylvanas had the least in common with the tauren. They were a deeply spiritual people, calm and steady. They craved the tranquillity of nature and honored ancient ways. Sylvanas once had understood those sentiments but no longer could relate to any of them.

    Sylvanas stiffened. Oh, yes. She, more than anyone, understood about divided families. Slain loved ones. She had lost everything because of Arthas: her friends, her family, her beloved Quel’Thalas. Her life. Her ability to care, truly care, truly feel any emotion save hate and anger about those things.

    And she had attempted a reunion. Had accepted her older sister’s offer to call what Arthas Menethil had left of her family together, to reclaim Windrunner Spire and purge it of the dark things that dwelled in it. And perhaps to purge themselves of their own darknesses by harking back to a time when there were no shadows within them.

    But it had been a futile endeavor. Suns and moons they had been when they were young. Bright Alleria, with her gleaming golden tresses, and laughing young Lirath. Sylvanas had been Lady Moon, and Vereesa, the youngest of the three sisters, had been Little Moon.

    The boy king’s plan was a foolish one. He still believed that people could change. Oh, they certainly could. Alleria, Sylvanas, and Vereesa were all proof.

    But it was not change for the better; at least, Anduin would not see it that way.
    This implies Sylvanas no longer feel the same human emotions she once had; she is simply no longer capable of love, not in the same way she used to be, perhaps she tries, but it just always slips away from her, like an eel she's unable to hold onto - it's like demanding someone feel empathy when something vital in their brain or heart is missing after they suffered a major crippling accident or something. Only in this case - it's not really their brain or heart...it's something deeper, and even more fundamentally vital.

    I am also reminded of this lyric from Arthas's song, Invincible:
    Alas, I have lost a part of myself.

    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Invincible_(song)
    Last edited by OwenBurton; 2021-05-28 at 09:05 AM.
    "Always you speak. Never do you listen! You ignore the lessons of Pandaria! You see, there is balance in all things. Wisdom etched in our very fur: Black and white. Darkness and light. When the last emperor hid our land from the rest of the world, he also preserved...our ancient enemy, the mantid. So it is with your Alliance and your Horde. They are not strong despite one another; they are strong BECAUSE of one another. You mistake your greatest strength for weakness. Do you see this?"

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by OwenBurton View Post
    This implies Sylvanas no longer feel the same human emotions she once had; she is simply no longer capable of love, not in the same way she used to be, perhaps she tries, but it just always slips away from her, like an eel she's unable to hold onto - it's like demanding someone feel empathy when something vital in their brain or heart is missing after they suffered a major crippling accident or something. Only in this case - it's not really their brain or heart...it's something deeper, and even more fundamentally vital.
    None of this is really news. Blizzard explained long ago that the loss of positive sensations is a result of the way the soul gets imperfectly attached to the dead body when someone gets ressurrected as an undead. Exposure to the Light can also lessen this effect and make undead feel more "alive" with the downside of also feeling bodily sensations (which turns out to be unpleasant when you're a rotting corpse).
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Interesting, it's like though a soul is split or a shade of someone created, it still bears marks of you even though it's not fully truly all you or wholly you.

    Broken you though evil or able to be manipulated still has elements of you that can about, like Arthas, you can have a moment of clarity where parts of you show out.. think of it like a clone, it's not you but it's really you, now think of it as a clone missing certain parts.

    There is away that the lich is able to control the undead, maybe it's because what you see in those DKs and others iis not truly them, but a shade/shadow of them, with the missing bits filled by the controller i.e. Lich King, Jailer etc.


    Afterall, how is someone like that able to control someone in the first place? They can't exactly control living people directly (can through manipulation) but not outright force like DKs and Arthas could be forced

    Anyway, i'ts not like the lore is clear.

    - - - Updated - - -


    But is there? Are you sure there is no difference? There seems to be a definite difference.. it's not shadow person replacement, but just less of you or handicapped you, something is happening that hasn't been explained properly to us.

    The person that did the act is fully responsible for what they did. So shade Arthas, Lich Arthas, undead Sylvanas all did those things they did, but that character is responsible for that, if that character is actually different from the previous one, then the previous one isn't entirely responsible.

    then let's look at how they got there for Sylvanas, somebody ripped her apart, murdered her, then brought a fragmented part of her spirit back.

    Remember she is banshee spirit, that then gets to repossess her original body. That banshee isn't the whole or full Sylvanas, why should we assume she is? It's obviously a broken spirit, not the complete thing, and while it contains parts of the original, it isn't the whole thing.

    Not to mention she didn't do this to herself, unlike Kel'thuzard who chose to do this.

    Arthas also chose to pick up Frostmourne although it changed him when he did, he chose too, he was manipulated true, he didn't do so knowing exactly that he'd be changed, he wanted a weapon to destroy the evil, but instead when he picks it up, he is changed, and now he becomes the evil. did anyone warn Arthas not to pick up Frostmourne that you can say he was told, and shown but did not listen. I believe Muradin was there with him, told him not to. Arthas doesn't get a second change after that, his chances were the chances to turn around when Uther and even Muradin told him. Yet Arthas that becomes the Lich King is not the same as Arthas that picked up Frostmourne. Arthas who picked up Frostmourne must be judged for al the actions he did up to that point, The rest is the responsibility of Ner'zhul and the Jailer.
    Thank you for having an opened minded response to what I was saying. Some people don't want this to be a thing, either because it takes away from Arthas or it gives Sylvanas(the good one that arthas killed) a pass and puts the blame on the evil one we see before us.

    I've been playing a lot of Cyberpunk lately, if you've played it than you understand where im going here with this. The main character *Spoilers* dies at the end of the second act, but you're still alive and play the game. It's because the technology in you, copied you and re uploaded your conscious. But it also uploaded the conscious of someone who's been dead for a long time. Eventually Johnny's conscious will overtake yours, not instantly, but slowly. You'll start acting like him, doing things he would do until eventually you become him without knowing it.
    Another point in the game, they explore something similar to this with people who are alive, but are having their personalities changed by a shadow group(Mr.BlueEyes). They can be made to forget things, or remember false things. They can be encouraged to make decisions they wouldn't have before.

    These 2 elements are really fascinating, they make the lore of the game very thought provocative. And I oddly enough I started playing the game after i made that post about Arthas and Sylvanas, yet it is what I've been saying is going on with Arthas.

    Arthas basically died between the time of him picking up Frostmourne and when he ran off after killing Malganis. His personality is changed, rewritten by this evil dark lord. Any actions taken afterwards, aren't that of the Arthas that tried to save his people. Sylvanas aswell, despite not being loyal to the scourge, is overwritten by the scourge, but tortured right off the bat, so she hates the scourge. She's not the same sylvanas.

    At a point in CyberPunk, you have a talk with Johnny about how he's not the real johnny(something he is aware of very early on) but it's about how the real Johnny, if there's a heaven/hell, is already there. No matter what you or johnny do, the real ones are already dead.

    but people don't want that, because it takes away from Badass Arthas and evil Sylvanas who needs punishing. :/

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    This whole shard of good unmakes a whole lot of everything and I am deeply unsettled by this dime a dozen scapegoat writing.
    Speaking of Shards! Jack maybe this helps a little with coping with the scapegoat that exists in other medias

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    Thank you for having an opened minded response to what I was saying. Some people don't want this to be a thing, either because it takes away from Arthas or it gives Sylvanas(the good one that arthas killed) a pass and puts the blame on the evil one we see before us.

    I've been playing a lot of Cyberpunk lately, if you've played it than you understand where im going here with this. The main character *Spoilers* dies at the end of the second act, but you're still alive and play the game. It's because the technology in you, copied you and re uploaded your conscious. But it also uploaded the conscious of someone who's been dead for a long time. Eventually Johnny's conscious will overtake yours, not instantly, but slowly. You'll start acting like him, doing things he would do until eventually you become him without knowing it.
    Another point in the game, they explore something similar to this with people who are alive, but are having their personalities changed by a shadow group(Mr.BlueEyes). They can be made to forget things, or remember false things. They can be encouraged to make decisions they wouldn't have before.

    These 2 elements are really fascinating, they make the lore of the game very thought provocative. And I oddly enough I started playing the game after i made that post about Arthas and Sylvanas, yet it is what I've been saying is going on with Arthas.

    Arthas basically died between the time of him picking up Frostmourne and when he ran off after killing Malganis. His personality is changed, rewritten by this evil dark lord. Any actions taken afterwards, aren't that of the Arthas that tried to save his people. Sylvanas aswell, despite not being loyal to the scourge, is overwritten by the scourge, but tortured right off the bat, so she hates the scourge. She's not the same sylvanas.

    At a point in CyberPunk, you have a talk with Johnny about how he's not the real johnny(something he is aware of very early on) but it's about how the real Johnny, if there's a heaven/hell, is already there. No matter what you or johnny do, the real ones are already dead.

    but people don't want that, because it takes away from Badass Arthas and evil Sylvanas who needs punishing. :/


    Speaking of Shards! Jack maybe this helps a little with coping with the scapegoat that exists in other medias
    I love it. I think these things are definitely worth exploring. Just because these people don't want a thing, doesn't mean it isn't possible or even plausivble under the right path. It takes creativity to create solutions that make seemingly impossible things possible. even if you don't like the result, you should at least applaud the creativity.

    While I'm not a fan of guilty people escaping justice. Justice demands a price, and if there can be a way where what is good is saved, but what is evil be destroyed, then that is surely the better solution than chucking everything away because of your grief or anger. If someone pays the price, then the price is paid.. this oslution doesn't advocate nothing is answered for, but it gives justice both to those who did no wrong and to those who did to.

    I wrote this enquiry not out of any desire to have Sylvanas or Arthas restored, but the possibility that it could actually happen, but look at how the haters descended upon me.. sigh.. thank you Mike at least for seeing beyond the surface.

    And I like your analogy too, this has been explored in some of the more creative material out there, like cyberpunk and some other series too. Warcrat convoluted cosmology and what we have seen so far in the shadowlands certainly allows for this. And imo it is certainly the more interesting.

    And it doesn't even have to stop there, they can use the events of the shadowlands to effectively reset Warcraft, a larger scale version of what happened in cata, upgrade the zones and add new ones. e.g. what if due to the events of shadowlands, all the deaths and lives lost by the jailor's machinations were undone.. by some one off event made possible by a massive release of power or his death undoing his machinations, resulting in lives that were lost from WoT being restored? but why stop at WoT? why not go back to say TBC or even WC1? why not go back to the war of the ancients, given that the Legion was a result of the Arbiter's manipulation - much of the comsos gets restored...

    Which means we get a different Azeroth, the sunken lands of Kalimdor lost, all the night elves destroyed in the WotA restored, their cities, , but without losing any of the current ones still around.. what if that happens.. and blizzards next 20 year Warcraft plan is to show all these places.

    So they start with revamped EK and Kalimdor areas, then show different portions of the raised continents, lost, over various expansions, we even go to a restored Draenor, fighting more things.

    The balance of power completely shifted, and varied.. What happens to the undead? well, undead become those who were due to be punished in the maw, but they are given undeath instead in an attempt to prove whether they are worthy of a better afterlife or a second chance of life. But they aren't necessarily told this, but this is to see how they would act if they hadn't been influenced by machinations of the Arbiter.


    I'm going as crazy and wild with my imagination as possible, because in the realm of imagination , nothing is possible, and once you have a framework it can be manipulated and added to create any desired result.

    When it's interesting i think it can be worth pursuing, imagine a Warcraft with a Kael'thas restored, but also able to meet all the heroes of the past, now in the present. It certainly opens up paths for Azeroth without needing to go to strange new worlds all the time. Tbh, with the storyline of shadowlands, all of the above seems possible now where before it didn't. There is an explanation you can see now with a little extra steps. but it needed a storyline like shadowlands to open the door, which is much better than us skipping from BFA with a online explanation like some mysterious pantheon just resurrected everything. Shadowlands itself is pretty whacky.. But this is a world of magic.. if the world can be reborn and reset, and an explanation concerning powers that are invented are given.. then so what? As long as it is good and leads to better content, more content and good at that, why shouldn't it be accepted?
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    I love it. I think these things are definitely worth exploring. Just because these people don't want a thing, doesn't mean it isn't possible or even plausivble under the right path. It takes creativity to create solutions that make seemingly impossible things possible. even if you don't like the result, you should at least applaud the creativity.

    While I'm not a fan of guilty people escaping justice. Justice demands a price, and if there can be a way where what is good is saved, but what is evil be destroyed, then that is surely the better solution than chucking everything away because of your grief or anger. If someone pays the price, then the price is paid.. this oslution doesn't advocate nothing is answered for, but it gives justice both to those who did no wrong and to those who did to.

    I wrote this enquiry not out of any desire to have Sylvanas or Arthas restored, but the possibility that it could actually happen, but look at how the haters descended upon me.. sigh.. thank you Mike at least for seeing beyond the surface.

    And I like your analogy too, this has been explored in some of the more creative material out there, like cyberpunk and some other series too. Warcrat convoluted cosmology and what we have seen so far in the shadowlands certainly allows for this. And imo it is certainly the more interesting.

    And it doesn't even have to stop there, they can use the events of the shadowlands to effectively reset Warcraft, a larger scale version of what happened in cata, upgrade the zones and add new ones. e.g. what if due to the events of shadowlands, all the deaths and lives lost by the jailor's machinations were undone.. by some one off event made possible by a massive release of power or his death undoing his machinations, resulting in lives that were lost from WoT being restored? but why stop at WoT? why not go back to say TBC or even WC1? why not go back to the war of the ancients, given that the Legion was a result of the Arbiter's manipulation - much of the comsos gets restored...

    Which means we get a different Azeroth, the sunken lands of Kalimdor lost, all the night elves destroyed in the WotA restored, their cities, , but without losing any of the current ones still around.. what if that happens.. and blizzards next 20 year Warcraft plan is to show all these places.

    So they start with revamped EK and Kalimdor areas, then show different portions of the raised continents, lost, over various expansions, we even go to a restored Draenor, fighting more things.

    The balance of power completely shifted, and varied.. What happens to the undead? well, undead become those who were due to be punished in the maw, but they are given undeath instead in an attempt to prove whether they are worthy of a better afterlife or a second chance of life. But they aren't necessarily told this, but this is to see how they would act if they hadn't been influenced by machinations of the Arbiter.


    I'm going as crazy and wild with my imagination as possible, because in the realm of imagination , nothing is possible, and once you have a framework it can be manipulated and added to create any desired result.

    When it's interesting i think it can be worth pursuing, imagine a Warcraft with a Kael'thas restored, but also able to meet all the heroes of the past, now in the present. It certainly opens up paths for Azeroth without needing to go to strange new worlds all the time. Tbh, with the storyline of shadowlands, all of the above seems possible now where before it didn't. There is an explanation you can see now with a little extra steps. but it needed a storyline like shadowlands to open the door, which is much better than us skipping from BFA with a online explanation like some mysterious pantheon just resurrected everything. Shadowlands itself is pretty whacky.. But this is a world of magic.. if the world can be reborn and reset, and an explanation concerning powers that are invented are given.. then so what? As long as it is good and leads to better content, more content and good at that, why shouldn't it be accepted?
    I love your thinking!

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    Thank you for having an opened minded response to what I was saying. Some people don't want this to be a thing, either because it takes away from Arthas or it gives Sylvanas(the good one that arthas killed) a pass and puts the blame on the evil one we see before us.

    I've been playing a lot of Cyberpunk lately, if you've played it than you understand where im going here with this. The main character *Spoilers* dies at the end of the second act, but you're still alive and play the game. It's because the technology in you, copied you and re uploaded your conscious. But it also uploaded the conscious of someone who's been dead for a long time. Eventually Johnny's conscious will overtake yours, not instantly, but slowly. You'll start acting like him, doing things he would do until eventually you become him without knowing it.
    Another point in the game, they explore something similar to this with people who are alive, but are having their personalities changed by a shadow group(Mr.BlueEyes). They can be made to forget things, or remember false things. They can be encouraged to make decisions they wouldn't have before.

    These 2 elements are really fascinating, they make the lore of the game very thought provocative. And I oddly enough I started playing the game after i made that post about Arthas and Sylvanas, yet it is what I've been saying is going on with Arthas.

    Arthas basically died between the time of him picking up Frostmourne and when he ran off after killing Malganis. His personality is changed, rewritten by this evil dark lord. Any actions taken afterwards, aren't that of the Arthas that tried to save his people. Sylvanas aswell, despite not being loyal to the scourge, is overwritten by the scourge, but tortured right off the bat, so she hates the scourge. She's not the same sylvanas.

    At a point in CyberPunk, you have a talk with Johnny about how he's not the real johnny(something he is aware of very early on) but it's about how the real Johnny, if there's a heaven/hell, is already there. No matter what you or johnny do, the real ones are already dead.

    but people don't want that, because it takes away from Badass Arthas and evil Sylvanas who needs punishing. :/


    Speaking of Shards! Jack maybe this helps a little with coping with the scapegoat that exists in other medias
    i would like if at the end both shards of silvanas´s soul are made one again and she is resurrected and now she has an ordinary elf body fully capable of feeling emotions and so now she has to live with the memory and guilt of everything she did as an undead, both as a slave to arthas and as her evil counterpart.

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